The Retribution Paladin Thread (Wrath/3.0) - Page 21

CaptBooyah · 12/14/08, 9:19 PM

Two choices available (at least a ilevel 213):

[Deadly Gladiator's Libram of Fortitude]
[Libram of Radiance]

I'm still doubting that even with the incoming SoC buff (which is probably just to help out PVP) and the new badge libram that SoC would rival Blood/Martyr as the PVE seal of choice. Can be solved with Mathematics at your leisure

Jitterberry · 12/14/08, 9:38 PM

I think it would be tough for SoComm to rival Blood/Martyr simply due to the recoil damage helping mana efficiency.

Healgazm · 12/14/08, 10:45 PM

Hi guys! I've been reading and coming here for a while now and finally decided to make an account. I have a huge favor and question to start off ^^; Ive been really stumped the past few weeks andI have NO idea what im doing wrong im lucky to be doing about the dps i was doing at 70 with 2400ish (pre 3.0 godly patch) where everyone else is atleast doing 3500+ -_-.. Went from going top 5 in dps in raids to 9th-12th and i hate it and feel very useless..

here is the wws thing..

WOW Meter Online - The Best World of Warcraft Combat Log Analyse System!Fully support Wrath of the Lich King!

here is the real wws if no one likes that new thing but guy that does ours said it bugged out a little at some point..

WWS Loading...

ive gotten a few upgrades that night and last night big for the week of upgrades

Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

thats the most up to date.. still got a few lv 70epics that im trying to replace like my shoulders that never drop << but its not really THAT bad.. but im hit capped finally and still kinda low crit and ap but finally starting to pick up a good amount of upgrades to replace crap and not have to use hit gems and go back to str

anyway.. Mind giving me a few pointers to push up my DPS and get it ugh atleast over 3k for every fight a nice dps rotation anything.. ive looked at stuff yet everything i try i seem to fail at. Thanks guys =)! Ive read alot of the stuff around and still have noo idea what im doing wrong but will continue to look around and post and enjoy my stay here thanks again guys!

Kaprina · 12/14/08, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by Avitus

Lets break it down:

[Loatheb's Shadow]: 670 * 20/120 = 112 AP

[Mirror of Truth] has an icd (internal cooldown) of 45 seconds:

Assuming unrealistic optimum: 1000 * 10/45 = 223 AP
Assuming an average 15 seconds to proc effect past icd: 1000 *10/60 = 167 AP

So, ignoring AW for the moment, you have somewhere between (at best) 223 AP and 167 AP for the Mirror vs. 112 AP for Loatheb's Shadow.

Now factoring in AW, those 112 AP will be worth 20% more (note: this is not the perfect way of doing it, but it's very close to exact), equating to roughly 134 AP.

So even if we factor AW for Loatheb's Shadow and nothing for Mirror, Mirror is a chunk ahead. Now keep in mind in practice, Mirror will also have some uptime during AW/heroism/other effects improving it even further.

Lengthy reply for a simple thing, but I've seen this question thrown around too frequently. It's unusual to expect the badge trinket to be better than the drop, though remember they're the same item level and the math for it is very clear.

Thanks for the math, Avitus. Looking back over the last couple week's raids, I think 15 seconds is pretty reasonable estimate for average time to proc. Given that, do you think it's worth delayiing the first use of AW for the proc?

osmigos · 12/15/08, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by Kaprina

Thanks for the math, Avitus. Looking back over the last couple week's raids, I think 15 seconds is pretty reasonable estimate for average time to proc. Given that, do you think it's worth delayiing the first use of AW for the proc?

When you use AW really depends on the fight, and it's mostly up to you to determine the optimal time for it's use. Most of the time you should have a decent idea of how long an encounter will be, so you can figure out how many times it's possible to use it and don't wait until you're pushing a use off at the end to pop the first one.
One possible exception would be during Malygos, you might want to wait until you have a high stack of power sparks to hit AW, even if it means passing up another use during the add phase.

Arikah · 12/15/08, 1:48 AM

And it appears we have a winner on the judgement bug cause (from the official forums, of all places?!):

Ghostcrawler: I just tested this with a warrior friend.

100% reproduction using Org heroic training dummy using all 3 judgements:

Warrior puts up Thunderclap.

Just to make things simple, I wait till thunderclap has about 12 seconds left on it.

I cast judgement. Hit successful.

Thunderclap falls off.

8 seconds later

I cast judgement. Nothing happens, no mana, no damage. Judgement goes on cooldown and consumes it's mana cost. Judgement debuff does not refresh.

I wait for cooldown, judgement fails again, just like before.

Judgement debuff, + heart of the crusader fall off the target.

Cast judgement. Judgement successful.

-------------

Debuff's rolling off the target seem to be causing this problem. As new debuffs are applied; they fall off before my judgement does (which it never will unless overwritten by another pally) due it having a 100% uptime at hit cap. Problem is this can cause 2 + judgement failures waiting for the debuff to fall off.

As an earlier poster said, as the judgement debuff moves from position X to Y, is where this bug seems to be happening.

This also explains away the crit relationship theories using hammer of justice. The debuff Hammer of Justice is rolling off before you re-apply your first judgement after casting Hammer of Justice.

EDIT:

It should also be noted, that as long as the judgement debuff maintained it's position on the target, IE keep refreshing Thunderclap, every judgement was successful.

This explains a HELL of a lot - why this bug is so common in raids (debuffs), why the HoJ trick works (it is a debuff), and why this bug is not unique to any one seal or judgement. After a little bit of testing myself using various helpers (warlocks, hunter stings, other paladins) I can confirm that this debuff theory is sound - if we can just get a fraps or something of this behavior we can show it to blizzard, and likely have it patched in with 3.0.8.

Karakas · 12/15/08, 2:43 AM

I recently ran a similar analysis to CaptBooyah, with the intent of seeing whether prioritizing Consecration over Crusader Strike and Divine Storm actually results in a net gain in damage. I conducted my analysis using the same assumptions, in an environment without the 4-piece T7 bonus (i.e. 8sec Judgement cooldowns). I compared three situations:

First was a priority list that went Judgement -> Consecration -> Crusader Strike -> Divine Storm, versus a single target. Second was a priority list that went Judgement -> Crusader Strike -> Divine Storm -> Consecration, with priority given to Judgement should it "conflict" (come up within 0.5s of when Crusader Strike would be used). Third was a Judgement -> Crusader Strike -> Divine Storm -> Consecration priority system, on a strict FCFS basis (i.e. not waiting the extra 0.5 seconds to use Judgement instead of Crusader Strike).

The average damage figures used for my analysis are identical:

Judgement = 6990
Crusader Strike = 3129
Divine Storm = 2927
Consecration = 4770

The analysis was conducted versus a theoretical two minute fight, with only considerations for these four abilities in play.

Consecration Priority:

15 Judgement = 104850 damage
12 Consecration = 57240 damage
18 Crusader Strike = 56322 damage
11 Divine Storm = 32197 damage
total damage = 250609

CS priority, focus on Judgements:

15 Judgement = 104850 damage
11 Consecration = 52470 damage
15 Crusader Strike = 46935 damage
10 Divine Storm = 29270 damage
total damage = 233525

CS priority, FCFS:

15 Judgement = 104850 damage
11 Consecration = 52470 damage
19 Crusader Strike = 59451 damage
11 Divine Storm = 32197 damage
total damage = 248968

Conclusions:

In this scenario, prioritizing Consecration over Crusader Strike and Divine Storm results in a trade-off of one Consecration for one Crusader Strike, resulting in a damage differential of 1641, a largely insignificant (<1% of total) figure. Interestingly, it appears to not matter whether Consecration is prioritized below or above Divine Storm, due to them sharing a cooldown time (both being 10 seconds in duration). Also, absent the 4-piece T7 bonus, it appears that focusing on a strict FCFS basis with Consecration prioritized above CS will result in the most damage overall, since waiting 0.5s for Judgement lowers total damage done by a significant amount (~6-7%).

Blutelf · 12/15/08, 6:59 AM

Originally Posted by CaptBooyah

Two choices available (at least a ilevel 213):

[Deadly Gladiator's Libram of Fortitude]
[Libram of Radiance]

This post in the old Retribution DPS Theorycraft thread goes over the mathematics, so to summarize: the PVP Libram is stronger. There also is a [Hateful Gladiator's Libram of Fortitude], which has a lower arena rating requirement.

Aarn · 12/15/08, 7:17 AM

Originally Posted by Avitus

Nice catch, I hadn't considered [Enchanted Tear], you're correct it edges out 8str/12stam gem very slightly.

[Enchanted Tear]

Keep in mind though it's about +400g (on my server) for about a ~1 DPS difference over the 8 Str/ 12stam one (and in the range of ~3DPS over the 7 str/11 stam gem).

It's actually not hard to get a Enchanted Tear. Took me 35min to farm the Clams needed, also got the "Greens" to disenchant for the dust needed. Also the tear gives you rather nice "freedom" when it comes to gem choices as it's prismatic.

But then again it will be out weight by the next generation of gems, hence the +20 Str and +10 Str and +10 Crit/Hit ones.

Lau · 12/15/08, 7:55 AM

Originally Posted by Arikah

And it appears we have a winner on the judgement bug cause (from the official forums, of all places?!):

This explains a HELL of a lot - why this bug is so common in raids (debuffs), why the HoJ trick works (it is a debuff), and why this bug is not unique to any one seal or judgement. After a little bit of testing myself using various helpers (warlocks, hunter stings, other paladins) I can confirm that this debuff theory is sound - if we can just get a fraps or something of this behavior we can show it to blizzard, and likely have it patched in with 3.0.8.

Thank you very much for pointing this out.

This was quite of driving me crazy, since I was beginning to think it was related to lag and some of the game mecanism to try to minimize its effect, which lead me to try to delay the cast of my judgement, which surely wasn't good at all.

I also wasn't convinced with the judgment-switching theory, but now I can create my /castsequence macro while reasonnably thinking it will have a positive impact (although there still seems to be cases where we still get the problem).

Anyway, typical programming bug on list objects, at least we can hope it will be fixed in a timely manner now.

CaptBooyah · 12/15/08, 8:16 AM

1-2% difference between different prioritisations... we'd might as well be face-rolling our way through wrath.

The better players will be the ones who can keep their attention span up long enough to finish fights.=P

Rukiia · 12/15/08, 8:38 AM

I still feel that [Bandit's Insignia] is still very solid, especially as proc stacks with dmg multipliers. Also as previously mentioned [Fury of the Five Flights] is good but situational. Surely the passive AP of the insignia is better than the mirrors proc?

With regards to the judgement bug. This sometimes has me tearing my hair out as with bad luck the loss of overall damage and mana is huge. I have done some testing myself and it almost appeared that the problem was when two pallys had 3/3 heart of the crusader and when i was judging wisdom. When our prot pally respeced out of heart of the crusader and i started judging light the number of bugs dropped a lot. I do however have no WWS logs to back this up this is just my own findings.

Hopefully this problem can get fixed sooner rather than later cause i am getting rather fed up of times with what can be russian roulette dps.

• frmorrison · 12/15/08, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Rukiia

I still feel that [Bandit's Insignia] is still very solid, especially as proc stacks with dmg multipliers. Also as previously mentioned [Fury of the Five Flights] is good but situational. Surely the passive AP of the insignia is better than the mirrors proc?

The Fury is good, however it is better in the hands of a DW class, since they build up a stack fast, and we do not.

I added the proc of Bandit's (some magic damage) to Rawr, it said Mirror was better, but not by much. 1000 AP equaling ~160 AP is really good and it is great the 2nd best trinket comes from badges (not great that the best trinket costs 20k+).

Exemplar · 12/15/08, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Blazeflack

However I have a problem with the spreadsheet from Bellator that is linked in the first post and was wondering if anyone else have this too. Whenever I press "Auto-Gem", "Show Enchants/Sockets" on the Character tab or "Analyze items" on the Item Calc tab I get a "Run-time error '1004': Method 'Range' of object '_Global' failed".

Edit: I am using MS Office 2007 btw.

Anyone receiving error messages - please PM me. Also click to debug and let me know where in the macro it is failing. I'm working on Excel 2003 and we all know how compatible Microsoft is with its own products...

Also still interested if anyone wants to provide me Mail and Leather gear to throw in for the community.

Working on some tweaks/bug fixes from PM as well as updating for 3.0.8. Will release new version when the patch goes live with new mechanics (Vengeance 5stacks again? 6% more damage? Thanks, Blizzard!) and altered gear. Please PM me if I miss any gear changes!

Hyperial · 12/15/08, 12:41 PM

Has anyone had the availability for extensive testing regarding hit rating needed to never miss a judgement?

I'm aware of the ghost hit, and due to this bug melee cap seems to be 5% according to my own testing, I have not been able to find the time to test with a large sum of judgements on a single target, can someone shed some light on this matter?