The Retribution Paladin Thread (Wrath/3.0) - Page 214

Mishni · 04/03/09, 12:26 AM

I hadn't seen it noted anywhere whether Glyph of Seal of Blood mana return was affected by absorb shields. That is to say, I was worried that recoil absorbed by Sacred Shield would award 0 mana because it technically did no damage. After a few quick tests I found the glyph does in fact still work even if the recoil is completely absorbed.

Sacred shield is looking pretty amazing now that it finally scales for ret and has a new talent supporting it -- the relatively heavy mana cost won't be much of a worry anymore either.

greatrichie · 04/03/09, 12:36 AM

Seal of the Martyr is working correctly now too. Will update with a pic here in a sec.

Woot for almost 3k Seal procs.

Nisall · 04/03/09, 1:55 AM

Well yesterday I managed to an extensive white (30k hits) and CS (7.7k hits) test. It was all done in 1 go, but because the test was longer than 12hrs I had to split the combatlog for wws.

Here is the recount data for the white hits

and here for the CS

And the wws report(s)
WWS Part 1
WWS Part 2

Maylander · 04/03/09, 4:01 AM

Seems special attacks do, in fact, have a different critical reduction than normal swings. However, it is a bit odd that it differs on data this big (1% and 2%). Since the 2nd log is 1780 CS swings, I assume it's merely a matter of getting 10-18ish (1%) "lucky" crits (RNG), and that the 1st log is actually correct.

Same thing for the misses - I assume that the 1st log is the correct one, and that the values 14% (normal) and 15% (CS) are correct.

Edit: How many crit talents did you pick up in order to get CS? All 8% making it a total of 13% I take it?

My WWS reading skills are subpar (as I have displayed previously), so correct me if I'm wrong.

Normal strikes:
16438 hits
1315 crits (8%)
2301 misses (14%)

Crusader strikes:
4297 hits
301 crits (7%)
645 misses (15%)

One of the reasons I am confused is the fact that there is no total to base the calucations on. You have to calculate the total on your own. This could lead to varying results depending on how you calculate it (which might actually be the reason people are posting different results).

Saying 8% should mean 8% of the total number of hits, which is not the same as 8% of 16438. The real values should be:
16438 hits is 78% of the total 21074, in which case the numbers are:
21074 swings (100%)
16438 hits (78%)
1686 crits (8%)
2950 misses (14%)

However, since dodge/miss is calculated before crit in the rolling, you have to recalculate the actual crit chance by comaring it with number of hits, not total swings:
16438 hits, 1686 crits -> roughly 10%

In any case, with 13% crit chance in total, and a boss mob being 3 levels higher, the total reduction *should* be 3%, and I think it is - WWS is just plain horrible at showing numbers, leading to all sorts of odd results.

Yet another edit: I'll update with Crusader Strike numbers.
5509 swings (100%)
4297 hits (78%)
386 crits (7%)
829 misses (15%)

4297 hits, 386 crits -> roughly 9%. The special strike is still 1% off from the regular hits, but that could be RNG based. Still, it wouldn't surprise me if there is indeed a 1% difference.

JamaFinn · 04/03/09, 5:34 AM

Originally Posted by Mishni

I hadn't seen it noted anywhere whether Glyph of Seal of Blood mana return was affected by absorb shields. That is to say, I was worried that recoil absorbed by Sacred Shield would award 0 mana because it technically did no damage. After a few quick tests I found the glyph does in fact still work even if the recoil is completely absorbed.

Sacred shield is looking pretty amazing now that it finally scales for ret and has a new talent supporting it -- the relatively heavy mana cost won't be much of a worry anymore either.

The one problem I'm seeing is that Sacred Shield won't proc off the recoil itself. So while it is nice to have a way for dealing with the recoil in certain encounters, Sacred Shield won't be of much use if there is no AoE damage involved.

Nisall · 04/03/09, 5:44 AM

Don't take the percentages from wws to literally since they are whole intergers.

calculating the percentages by hand;
wws part 1
Hits = 11275 (53.36%)
Crits = 1738 ( 8.23%)
Glancing = 5163 (24.43%)
Miss = 1632 (7.72%)
Dodge = 1322 ( 6.26%)

wws part 2
Hits = 4627 (54.08%)
crits = 677 (7.91%)
glancing = 2017 (23.57%)
miss = 690 (8.06%)
dodge = 545 (6.37%)

As you can see they are a lot closers together than the site would imply.

But it was all done in one test so the numbers should be
hits = 15902 (53.57%)
crits = 2415 (8.14%)
glancing = 7180 (24.19%)
miss = 2322 (7.82%)
dodge = 1867 (6.29%)

Paperdoll crit 13.03%-8.14%=4.89% crit reduction

So looking at the 30k white hits all the values are what we would've expected them to be including the crit reduction

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Crusader Strike
overall data
hits = 6077 (78.48%)
crit = 522 (6.74%)
miss = 638 (8.24%)
dodge = 506 (6.53%)

paperdoll crit 13.03%-6.74%= 6.29% crit reduction vs bosses

Nisall · 04/03/09, 6:10 AM

Originally Posted by Maylander

Edit: How many crit talents did you pick up in order to get CS? All 8% making it a total of 13% I take it?

Yes, I'm getting 8% from talents.

One of the reasons I am confused is the fact that there is no total to base the calucations on. You have to calculate the total on your own. This could lead to varying results depending on how you calculate it (which might actually be the reason people are posting different results).

Saying 8% should mean 8% of the total number of hits, which is not the same as 8% of 16438. The real values should be:
16438 hits is 78% of the total 21074, in which case the numbers are:
21074 swings (100%)
16438 hits (78%)
1686 crits (8%)
2950 misses (14%)

You can see all the number on wws. Looking the columns add Landed (this already includes glancing) + crit + All misses (includes misses and dodges) to get the total number of swings taken.

However, since dodge/miss is calculated before crit in the rolling, you have to recalculate the actual crit chance by comaring it with number of hits, not total swings:
16438 hits, 1686 crits -> 9,75% crit chance

9,75 should be closer to 10%, considering I've taken a few short cuts here and there. In any case, with 13% crit chance in total, and a boss mob being 3 levels higher, the total reduction *should* be 3%, and I think it is - WWS is just plain horrible at showing numbers, leading to all sorts of odd results.

Isn't this the 2-roll system? so this would be correct for the CS portion, but white hits are based on the 1 roll system.

Mmm... that reminds me I didn't calculate the CS part correctly

522 crit/ 6599 (hits+crit) = 7.91% crit

Paperdoll 13.03% - 7.91% = 5.12%% crit reduction

Valca · 04/03/09, 6:15 AM

Are we still stuck to the "prioritizing system+FCFS" or is there an fixed rotation possible?
I dont know how you play but i dont like this prioritizing system.
1. It's totally depending on ping/fps in my opinion
2. Watching your bars makes "me" immobile or at least its harder to do top dps with a prioritizing system.
regards Valca

Amphi · 04/03/09, 6:44 AM

According to info from the class forums, the Seal of the Martyr is now working as intended on the PTR.
This would indeed be good news. Anyone able to confirm?

Edit - Source: https://forums.wow-europe.com/thread...01790309&sid=1

Originally Posted by Nisall

Amphi, that has been confirmed here on the previous page.

Doh! Stupid proxy here at work caching sites forever. There was 2 new pages for me to read that didnt show up

Nisall · 04/03/09, 7:26 AM

Amphi, that has been confirmed here on the previous page.

Maylander · 04/03/09, 7:27 AM

Originally Posted by Valca

Are we still stuck to the "prioritizing system+FCFS" or is there an fixed rotation possible?
I dont know how you play but i dont like this prioritizing system.
1. It's totally depending on ping/fps in my opinion
2. Watching your bars makes "me" immobile or at least its harder to do top dps with a prioritizing system.
regards Valca

With the buff to Seals, you should notice a significant dps increase unless your current prio button mashing is ideal, since so much more of the damage is guaranteed (as long as your hit/expertise is high). Beyond that, it's still a prio system I'm afraid, but CS/DS/Exco are better now (doesn't really change the prio on Exco, since it doesn't pop RV on targets). As far as I know, the new system is CS/DS/Judgement.

@Nisall
Hitting works like this:
1 Miss
2 Dodge
3 Parry
4 Block
5 Critical strike
7 Hit

So, basically, you get a test in this order:
1 Chance to hit
2 & 3 Expertise (back/front)
3 Bosses don't block
4 Critical %
5 Once you get past all that, you actually hit the boss

Edit: I should probably clarify my point. The misses in the WWS parse have to be deducted before calculating actual critical strike chance, since a "13% critical strike chance" in your melee tab only affects step 5 and 6 - it doesn't actually affect the 4 steps before it. 13% critical strike chance does not actually mean you have a 13% chance to get a critical strike, it means that IF you pass the other tests, THEN you have a 13% chance to get a critical strike. You also have to remove 3%, since this is a boss mob, landing you at 10% critical strike chance (if the hit passes the other tests, that is).

PS. I'm sure most people know all this already, but I think I failed to explain what I meant in my previous post, so I took the time to elaborate now.

Another edit:
The most accurate way of measuring would be:
- Get a lot of tanking gear with expertise/hit, but without agi/crit.
- Spec up to Crusader Strike without getting the crit talents, so it's only base crit chance.
- Perform the exact same test, this time with 0% misses of any kind.

This way, the output is so straightforward it's impossible to misunderstand. However, I think it's a lot to ask for someone to go to all that trouble just because we're curious about a mechanic.

Nisall · 04/03/09, 8:23 AM

Unless I'm completely lost how the hits tables work I believe what you just explained is a 2 roll system. This is how yellow attacks work.

Auto attacks just use a one roll system. What you seen on your paperdoll is what you get, assuming equal level mobs. Here are 2 links which explain it in depth Wowwiki Attack Table and this thread started by Vulajin

Maylander · 04/03/09, 8:30 AM

No, that's all in one roll, it simply goes through the steps one by one.

The two-roll system is something of a myth, trying to explain how certain attacks can get two effects at the same time (i.e block and crit, which is impossible in the one roll system). We don't actually know yet if the two-roll system exists, but we do know it's a bit different from regular hits.

Basically, the two-roll system is explained as the double of what I just explained. It means it goes through the stack twice (or perhaps just parts of it).

Like I said though, it might just be a myth. All we know is that there is a difference.

Exemplar · 04/03/09, 9:58 AM

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but we seem to be close on both white and specials to what has been calculated for Rogues in their thread.

Nisall's tests from Recount
Autoattack (one roll)
2475 crits / 30452 effective blows = 0.081 or 8.1% crit rate
Paperdoll 13.03 - 8.1 = 4.9%

Crusader Strike (two roll)
Rule out dodges/parries, only hits and crits are valid data.
6074 hits + 521 crits = 6595 effective blows.
521 crits / 6595 effective blows = .079 or 7.9% crit rate
Paperdoll 13.03 - 7.9 = 5.13% crit reduction

Glancing at the WWS there was ~1 min where Heart of the Crusader was up on the dummy (thereby increasing crit by 3% to all hitting the dummy, even if not in group) - this would affect the overall data in a minor fashion. 1 minute out of more than 12 hrs isn't much, but we're also testing fractions of a %.

These are, as I said, vaguely close to the 4.8% reduction derived from Rogues. The cleanest test at this point would be to engage at just below 4.8% crit and verify no crits occur, then retest just above 4.8% and prove a crit occurs (as Rogues did).

The problem is that a naked paladin has 3.27% base crit chance + bonus crit from agi. The race with lowest agi is a dwarf at 86 agi. 3.27% crit + 86 agi worth of crit comes to ~4.91% crit. It is therefore impossible to cleanly and definitively prove that you cannot crit below 4.8% crit rating.

I suggest some naked testing of white and CS. If there are crits we know the reduction must be lower than ~4.91% - we should be able to get some estimate on whether it's .1% or greater. This also would allow easy testing of Heart of the Crusader. Going from .1% or .2% crit (after reduction) to 3.1% or 3.2% is a huge swing.

Recommendation:
1) Naked test with only 10 Talent Points (Benediction, Imp Judgement, Heart of Crusader, no deeper talents which affect crit or Judgement crit) to test whether/how much Heart increases white and Judgement. Just autoattack and Judge. We should easily be able to determine if it is adding 0% or 3% to one or both.
2) Naked test with CS but no +crit talents (no Sacred Seals/Sanctity of Battle, Conviction, etc). This will get very low crit rate white and CS data. Here's a possible build - avoid Vindication (just in case) and all talents which would affect CS or white crits.

whistler-z · 04/03/09, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Maylander

No, that's all in one roll, it simply goes through the steps one by one.

The two-roll system is something of a myth, trying to explain how certain attacks can get two effects at the same time (i.e block and crit, which is impossible in the one roll system). We don't actually know yet if the two-roll system exists, but we do know it's a bit different from regular hits.

Basically, the two-roll system is explained as the double of what I just explained. It means it goes through the stack twice (or perhaps just parts of it).

Like I said though, it might just be a myth. All we know is that there is a difference.

A 1-roll system has no steps but 1. In a 1-roll system, your chance to crit is not reduced by your chance to miss/dodge/parry/etc. (unless your crit is higher than your chance to hit (100-combined miss), as the crit fills in the hit area of the chart).

In a 2-roll system, you check to see if you hit before checking to see if you crit (simplified, but you get the drift). For instance, with a 10% combined miss and 30% crit rate, on average a 2-roll attack will only crit 30% of (100-10%), or 27% of the time. This is why DPS casters typically have such a huge emphasis on hit, as they start off with a base 17% chance to miss against bosses, and therefore also lose 17% of their crit.

EDIT to try to add something of value to the actual thread:

We don't have any reason to suspect a difference in our crit reductions between Live and PTR do we? I ask because running both clients at the same time allows more data to be collected at once. Don't know that both clients can take advantage of the macro-enabled keyboards, but at the very least additional data about white hits can be gathered simultaneously. I can collect some additional white hit data myself this weekend, but I can't significantly contribute to the yellow hit data until next week (ordered a G13 to play around with).