The Retribution Paladin Thread (Wrath/3.0) - Page 218

Tobrexa · 04/04/09, 7:40 PM

I also implied the higher instant strike damage of course, but as you already pointed out, with no ulduarweapon faster than 3.4, there is (yet) no point to discuss that. The only thing it changes, is the fact, that the Jawbone and Demise will climb up a little bit in value (as both of them offer also either some hit or expertise, especially for humans and dwarfs even more so). By how much a margin, that remains to be made out.

Redcape · 04/04/09, 7:43 PM

All right, thanks to all those who did the exhaustive testing on target dummies at my behest.

Our specials are definitely based on a 2 roll system and our paper doll crit rate looks accurate vs. a level 80, so I think we can safely model boss crit suppression as %4.8 across all strikes and melee.

I will be including those changes in my next update as well as all the rest of the changes to retadins in 3.1. The only thing I have left to implement at the moment is the spell crit suppression which I have heard about but not seen proper testing of yet. If anyone has tested that or knows where a really good set of data is please do let me know, otherwise I will try to dig it up and include that in the 3.1 update as well.

If I do manage to get that information I can probably find the time this weekend to release a 3.1 version with all the changes as far as we know so people can start checking it vs. Rawr vs. Bellator and do some gear comparisons.

Mishni · 04/04/09, 7:48 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Get Divinity and Divine Sac (you have no choice there), so then you have 4 points to go wherever you feel is best. I will have Guardian's Favor 2/3 in Stocism as my filler.

I'm curious what people's choice will be for those 2 trash points in prot in order to get to Divine Guardian. You've either got 2/3 stoicism or 2/5 toughness.

20% shorter stuns and 20% dispell resistance
vs
12% shorter movement impairing effects and 4% more armor

Stoicism may be appealing now that we won't have Divine Purpose, but then I'm not certain how common stuns are in Ulduar. The dispell resistance is useless in pve.

Toughness seems alright since movement impares are relatively common in pve, though really you're only getting benefit from it when Freedom is on cooldown. The minimal armor bonus is mostly useless, but may still help for bosses with aoe-able mobs that don't need tanked -- trash as well.

In either case it's going to be such a negligible benefit, I'm really disappointed that we're still forced to spend junk points in our pve build. I'd be much happier being able to put those 2 points into Imp Hammer -- there are many fights where I can see that being useful. That would be possible if Divine Guardian were moved a tier up and put right next to Divine Sacrifice; that would make a solid prot template for pve ret paladins.

Tobrexa · 04/04/09, 8:32 PM

By the way, I tested around a bit SS and it works quite well... perhaps too well... I tried to solo some mobs in Halls of Stone (non hero) and surprisingly enough I downed 4-5 mob groups, and even the large single sons-of-hodir-look-alike guy, only by timing the SS procs and the AoW procs... If you do it well, you can get some insane SoL procs rollin'... I abandoned because of fatigue... 2:30 AM in my time zone ^^

Concerning Stoicism and Toughness: I thought PvE stun and slow mechanics could not be shortened if the encounter was designed that way, so I rather thought them from a pure PvE point of view quite irrelevant, apart from the extra armor from Toughness.

flexbutt · 04/04/09, 8:39 PM

Unless they add something good to invest in, neither choice is very useful for PvE. I chose Stoicism because while it's not too helpful in raids, it's an extra precaution for when you do dailies or quests for general outdoor PvP. Between 20% stun reduction or 12% slow reduction, both are for the most part unnoticeable in raids, but helpful elsewhere.

Perhaps they'll add something worth speccing into.

HamSlammer · 04/04/09, 8:46 PM

Originally Posted by Tobrexa

Concerning Stoicism and Toughness: I thought PvE stun and slow mechanics could not be shortened if the encounter was designed that way, so I rather thought them from a pure PvE point of view quite irrelevant, apart from the extra armor from Toughness.

Stoicism works on King Ymiron's stun. Most PvE stuns can be HoF'ed except for Archavon's Stomp.

As the choice where to put the two floater talents, they're all quite bad. Anticipation will probably provide the most realistic survivability.

HamSlammer · 04/04/09, 9:00 PM

A random question to any Rets who've tested Auriaya, can Hand of Freedom remove the Feral Spirit's Feral Pounce? (Feral Pounce - Spell - World of Warcraft)

• frmorrison · 04/05/09, 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by Redcape

The only thing I have left to implement at the moment is the spell crit suppression which I have heard about but not seen proper testing of yet. If anyone has tested that or knows where a really good set of data is please do let me know, otherwise I will try to dig it up and include that in the 3.1 update as well.

Spells have a 3% crit depression (compared to 4.8 for melee). Retesting hit table assumptions has info in it.

Originally Posted by Mishni

In either case it's going to be such a negligible benefit, I'm really disappointed that we're still forced to spend junk points in our pve build.

With only two points being junk for PvE, that is a pretty good for a Paladin. Stocism are my junk talents because I will not have Divine Purpose anymore, so it will be more useful when I do an occasional BG or WG in my PvE Ret spec (Holy will be my 2nd spec).

Originally Posted by HamSlammer

A random question to any Rets who've tested Auriaya, can Hand of Freedom remove the Feral Spirit's Feral Pounce? (Feral Pounce - Spell - World of Warcraft)

Even if Divine Purposed HoF removed this stun (it works on the Patchwerk trash), you would have to drop a dps/raid buff talent to get it.

Arthaal · 04/05/09, 1:42 AM

Originally Posted by Tobrexa

By the way, I tested around a bit SS and it works quite well... perhaps too well... I tried to solo some mobs in Halls of Stone (non hero) and surprisingly enough I downed 4-5 mob groups, and even the large single sons-of-hodir-look-alike guy, only by timing the SS procs and the AoW procs... If you do it well, you can get some insane SoL procs rollin'... I abandoned because of fatigue... 2:30 AM in my time zone ^^

Concerning Stoicism and Toughness: I thought PvE stun and slow mechanics could not be shortened if the encounter was designed that way, so I rather thought them from a pure PvE point of view quite irrelevant, apart from the extra armor from Toughness.

Anybody else feeling like the SS scaling with Shol "bug" was only reclassified as such after they initially borked our PTR damage output and "fixed" to somehow compensate for that loss? They might have been anticipating the lowering of SoB Judgement damage as hurting us in PvP and re-evaluated their stance on SS in light of this... I foresee PvP issues with this spell already.

Arikah · 04/05/09, 2:19 AM

I really can't agree with that concern arthaal, since it is still vulnerable to purges and limited to a single target (probably yourself) only. Really the only classes we got a leg up on with SS working is unlucky warlocks (kill those stupid felpups), dk's and rogues, all of which are extremely powerful in pvp (yes even in 3.1). If anything is making people uncomfortable it is the exorcism change, since we've been pretty useless while being kited since forever. Now we can at least fight back once every 15s. It'll be interesting and also kind of sickening to see 75% of pvp paladins as ret because holy got kicked around so badly, but more than likely our class/spec representation will fall back in line with everyone else.

From a pve standpoint, there is an incredible amount of raid damage in Ulduar, even on trash, so having it limited to a single target is again the balancing act. It's great that in good gear we can solo lower instances or what have you, but it has no bearing on balancing for most of the game (raiding and pvp). Nice quality of life boost for people doing dailies too I suppose.

As for specs, I planned to shuffle my points into 2/3 stoicism simply because I don't enjoy being stunned by anything, and the talent build in the new OP will reflect this (if wowhead ever updates). Speaking of which I added stuff about our strikes' 2 roll system and pretty much anything relevant in the last 10 pages (how SS doesnt trigger with sob ect). If you have any more good info now is a good time to get it out there, I'll be updating to the 3.1 post before the 14th.

Arthaal · 04/05/09, 3:07 AM

I was concerned with exorcism until they changed SoB. With the weaker Judgements I see exorcism becoming our go to burst (except better because of the range... it's too bad we can't pickup the shorter cooldown in holy though). SoC might also make a comeback... but the way things are shaping up I could actually see either being useful depending on whether you expect a quick kill with controlled burst (HoJ + SoC) or attrition (SoB).

B2R · 04/05/09, 3:39 AM

Hello 2 all. I`ve spent some time and created not bad gear setup for Ulduar25 (yeah i understand that we`ve seen only maybe a half of the items, but even now this setup looks pretty nice imo). Just posting here Rawr compilation

All of the parts are gemmed for STR(used 3 JC gems), exept waist (i`ve inserted there 1 JC expertise gem for capping it). Some stats may be incorrect due to wrong Rawr calculation of raid buffs or including "not finished Wrathstone".
Note that i`ve included in stats all raid buffs, Flask of Endless Rage, STR food. (2), (4) Set bonus calculated

Head Warhelm of the Champion
Neck Frigid Strength of Hodir
Shoulders Conqueror's Aegis Shoulderplates
Chest Conqueror's Aegis Battleplate
Waist Belt of the Titans
Legs Conqueror's Aegis Legplates
Feet Battlelord's Plate Boots
Wrist Wristbands of the Sentinel Huntress
Hands Conqueror's Aegis Gauntlets
Finger1 Sif's Promise
Finger2 Ruthlessness
Trinket1 Darkmoon Card: Greatness
Trinket2 Wrathstone
Back Drape of the Deadly Foe
MainHand Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion
Ranged Deadly Gladiator's Libram of Fortitude

Race: BloodElf
Health: 30466
Strength: 2395
Agility: 410
Attack Power: 7996 (imo this one is too OP due to Wrathstone, maybe something else)
Crit Chance: 39,95%
Miss Chance: 0,00% (8.17% hit = 268 hit rating)
Dodge Chance: 0,00% (26 exp = 215 rating)
Melee Haste: 31,15%
Weapon Damage: 2773,94
Attack Speed: 2,49

Some feedback or criticism are welcome.

Kuthumii · 04/05/09, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Correct, the issue is a new player could have 100s of page to look through to find an answer to questions. so here you can post a new thread to discuss topics.

I feel we are where we were when EJ re-did their forums. We have mega threads that take a new player forever to look through. The first post in this thread sums up a good deal but for detailed answers a player must dig through 131 pages in this thread alone. Isn't it time we raise a new Ret thread (other threads as well) to keep in line with this thinking?

@B2R, what are you asking for? As you said we don't know all of the drops from Ulduar so any discussion on BiS set up is premature. Clearly the set up you built is a good set for a number of reasons, so again, what are you asking?

Lightbender · 04/05/09, 1:01 PM

Due to the nerf to judgment of blood damage, I find myself considering whether or not to use seal of command in PvP for burst, since the judgment would hit harder.

Exorcism + judgment of command (auto-crit when stunned is nice) seems to be a good amount of burst, the only question becomes whether or not it's worth it when the buff to crusader strike seal proc is taken into account.

B2R · 04/05/09, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by Kuthumii

@B2R, what are you asking for? As you said we don't know all of the drops from Ulduar so any discussion on BiS set up is premature. Clearly the set up you built is a good set for a number of reasons, so again, what are you asking?

I`m not asking, i`ve just meant that if i missed some better variant for some slot - correct me.