What other opinion do you need? Use Rawr (or another DPS modeling program/spreadsheet of your choice) and gear the way it tells you to maximize your DPS in PVE. There's really no gray areas here.
I'm wondering if the Double Nobles Deck vs. Nobles + Mirror calculations done have taken into account that both the STR and AGI decks will proc the +300 STRbuff, not +300 STR/AGI. Also, you can't really take into account the full 10 second duration of mirror, as paladins have far from an infinite attack speed. Especially with a slower weapon I suspect that Double Nobles could be better especially because they are more likely to overlap for use with AW than Nobles + Mirror.
Of course none of this matters if the internal cooldown is shared or something dumb like that.
Just a small correction. The Darkmoon card is unique-equipped.
Maximum Retribution Paladin DPS is far below the hit and expertise caps. Assuming you don't have a really bad RNG day - if everything misses, you're hosed. You just hit so freakin' hard that even factoring in fully missed attacks you do more damage. Against gut instinct, I know, but Rawr and spreadsheets should back this up.
However, keep in mind that missed judgements have no mana return. If you are finding mana an extreme concern, then hit cap to ensure no missed judgements is extremely useful. As judgements cannot be parried or dodged, expertise is not of vital importance. Remember, your hit cap could be 5% or 8% - test on the boss dummy to find out. Re-test after any patch.
Pick up hit and expertise when they happen to be on items that have other very excellent stats.
Personal anecdote - I have a personal hit cap of 8% (no ghost hit) and I'm regularly raiding around 4-5% hit (plus Draenei in my group). Mana has not been a major issue, even using a full Judge, CS, DS, Cons, Exo, Holy Wrath bag of tricks on undead. Mana potion injector should get through most fights (one pot per, but stacking 20 is nice) and self-LoH in unusual circumstances, such as if you're experiencing the Patchwerk no mana from judgement bug, or feel uncomfortable using Blood/Martyr on Loatheb, etc. The LoH minor glyph is especially nice for those circumstances you find you need to use it.
You guys who are using mana pots are missing out on using a Potion of Speed ( 500 haste for 15 seconds) or even the bc Insane Strength Potions (120 strength for 15 seconds) during one of your Avenging Wraths.
If you know when your tank is going to pull you can also pop one right before you enter combat allowing you to pop one on your second AW.
Potion of Speed or Insane Str Potion are both nice, especially during AW. However, if you have to drop a single Consecration from your rotation due to mana issues, it's a negligible increase at best. Possibly a decrease. Lose more than one, I guarantee it's a net loss.
If you are unable to spam every applicable DPS ability on cooldown due to not enough mana at any point in a fight, then a mana potion is a greater DPS gain than a Potion of Speed or Insane Str.
The free potion before/during pull is always gravy and is to be heartily recommended!
Sounds a little dangerous though? I've had problems with attacking too soon with anything but a prot paladin tanking (with the avenger's shield glyph). A badly timed heavy JoB crit has gotten me one shotted occasionally on the initial pull.
This is especially true with DK tanks as it seems their initial threat is very weak and takes a second to get going.
Hand of Salvation doesn't seem to help because from what I've seen it reduces your total threat very quickly (which is great if you need an aggro dump in the middle of the fight) but it doesn't reduce the actual threat caused by your burst.
If you cannot open up for 3 seconds due to tank threat, popping a pot won't alter this. You'll just wind up with 3 less seconds of its benefit. Also, since a haste pot will only affect autoattack (and seal proc), it shouldn't be a huge threat jump.
If threat during a pull is an issue, worst case modify your starting rotation - begin with a Consecrate. That gives a spare GCD for the tank to generate threat before you do large burst. Is opening with Cons a DPS loss? Yes, but less so than sitting there out of combat waiting on threat to do anything at all. It also happens to give some mana for JotW to regen on the first judge.
Or just don't use a pot.
Tanking mileage varies. I know two warriors in my guild that 15-20 seconds after a pull will have identical threat. However, 3 seconds after the pull one would have 1k threat and the other 15k threat. I think it's up to the rotation they use - I suspect one puts up defensive abilities (Thunderclap, etc) immediately while the other starts with offensive abilities (Shield Slam, Shockwave, etc). Once a rotation is complete both have used all the same abilities.
Maximum Retribution Paladin DPS is far below the hit and expertise caps. Assuming you don't have a really bad RNG day - if everything misses, you're hosed. You just hit so freakin' hard that even factoring in fully missed attacks you do more damage. Against gut instinct, I know, but Rawr and spreadsheets should back this up.
Pick up hit and expertise when they happen to be on items that have other very excellent stats.
I've come to the same conclusion. I have two sets of gear. They have identical AP (3501). Until now I've raided with one set, which is also hitcapped (8%) and expertise capped (even over a bit, at 27). This also grants 31.5% critical rating and 270 haste.
The trade off for 4 piece tier bonus is less hit (215 for 6.59%) and less expertise (only 97 rating for 11). I gain 1.5% in crit though (33.1%), as well as 20 more haste rating. Technically, I'm also using an ilvl200 over an ilvl213, but oh well. I plugged in the tier set and then multiplied the DPS I got from Redscape's spread by 1.03 (I've heard the DPS increase for the 4-piece bonus is 3-6%) and found that even at a minimum 3% increase it's large enough to justify using the Tier 7(.5) pieces, about 50 dps more than my hit-capped/expertise-capped set. I'm going to raid Naxx25 later this week with this and I'll report my findings.
Rawr is probably correct. Hit does less per point to improve your dps than Strength (and even AP, I think). However, staying capped on hit is more important since you want to make sure every Judgment lands to a) give you mana with JOTW and b) keep a very useful debuff on the mob.
I'm a relatively new player to the game so pardon my noob question. I've tried looking for the answers but haven't been able to find anything concrete on them.
Re: FCFS priority
in the locked retardin DPS thread, there was a short debate between whether priority should be given to the highest DPS ability or to something that will potentially prevent future simultaneous cooldowns.
Basically it boils down to, if both CS and Judgements are available, should we CS first and delay Judgement for a while to avoid a clash in CD, or should we always give priority to Judgements despite this meaning CS and Judgement will almost always clash on the next CD if you've specced 2/2 into improved judgements?
Personally whenever i Judge first, the CDs for my CS and Judgements always come up almost at the same time. Even if assuming amazing reflexes and no lag whatsoever, doing
0.0 Judgement
1.5 CS
7.5 CS
9.0 Judgement
will still push your Judgement back by at least a second.
And any slight 0.1 - 0.2s delay in mashing buttons will result in the CS and Judgement coming up almost at the same time at 8s. And if priority is again given to Judgements over CS, then the problem will occur again, resulting in much less CS over a fixed time frame.
Whereas if i give priority to CS, then
0.0 CS
1.5 Judgement
6.0 CS
9.5 Judgement
12.0 CS
18.0 CS
19.5 Judgement
This will result in much less CD clashing IMO. Wouldn't this be much better, with less clashing giving you higher DPS in the long run? Or am I seriously flawed?
Please help a confused player here, I'm looking to be as competitive as possible in my guild and your inputs will be greatly appreciated.
I can't help it but it feels like almost everyone are missing one important thing about Mirror of Truth.
It's 10s random proc this means that on several occasions it might proc so you only get 1 CS, DS and Judgement while it's active. Sure you can get two but it's rather likely you will miss out at least one if not two cooldown attacks with it up.
I used to use Mirror of Truth but I have put it aside and I'm now sticking to Bandit's Insignia and Drakmoon Card: Greatness. Use trinkets aren't bad at all but at least so far I have best effect out of this combo.
Whereas if i give priority to CS, then
0.0 CS
1.5 Judgement
6.0 CS
9.5 Judgement
12.0 CS
18.0 CS
19.5 Judgement
This will result in much less CD clashing IMO. Wouldn't this be much better, with less clashing giving you higher DPS in the long run? Or am I seriously flawed?
Please help a confused player here, I'm looking to be as competitive as possible in my guild and your inputs will be greatly appreciated.
Well, for the moment, let's just follow your logic where you only consider CS + Judgement.
Your cycle repeats every 18 seconds, where you put 3 CS for 2 JoB
Now let's consider the cycle where you put Judgement first, it will look like this (I start with CS nonetheless, since it helps find the repeating cycle more quicly... let's say you have done a judgement at time -7.5 and a CS at time -6.0 before that) :
0.0 CS
1.5 Judgement
6.0 CS
9.5 Judgement
12.0 CS
17.5 Judgement
19.0 CS
25.0 CS
26.5 Judgment
So here we have a cycle of 25s, where you put 4 CS for 3 JoB.
So, per second, we have :
- for cycle 1 : 0,167 CS and 0.111 JoB
- for cycle 2 : 0,16 CS and 0,12 JoB
With my current stuff (not very advanced, I also don't have 4PT7 bonus), CS damage is around 55% of JoB damage (not counting RV), so this gives us the equivalent :
- cycle 1 : 0,203 JoB
- cycle 2 : 0,208 JoB
Well, not a huge difference, but even with the lot of approximations I've taken, cycle 2 is sufficiently above.
And you must add RV for an additional gain to cycle 2.
And now, you must also factor that these two spells will also collide with other ones, such as consecration or divine storm, which will regularly lead to have things like : DS is up 0.5s before CS, so you use DS, but then in the mean time Judgement becomes available again, so you use Judgement before CS, although in the cycle with only CS and judgment you would have used CS...
Hope this clarifies a bit...
And in fact, once we get the 4pT7 bonus, this particular problem is solved (but we assume it will come back with T8...).
Hey there. I've been a fan of elitistjerks forums for quite a while, but this is my first post. I have a WWS I am linking with some abnormal amounts of misses.
This was our first guild run of Naxxramas, so I was pretty scatterbrained trying to organize everyone and get things going, so for about half of the raid, I had defensive trinkets equipped. Just before Heigan I picked up the shoulders I am currently wearing and didn't notice that I inadvertantly screwed up my metagem requirements. (ok noob explainations out of the way)
I was under the impression that 9% hit was sufficient for our specials to land. In other words, I would expect to see ~1% or less miss from Crusader Strike in particular. Up until Heigan, I was running 7% hit and afterwards I had 8% hit. We had a Shadow Priest and a Boomkin in the raid as well. I don't understand why I had 8% miss from Crusader Strike. In particular, on Instructer Razuvious I missed over 20%. I am pretty baffled as to what the explaination for this would be.
I don't understand why I had 8% miss from Crusader Strike.
You didn't.
Click on the line of Crusader Strike to have the details (don't click on "Crusader strike", this will open a new page, just click on the line itself, and it will show you more information on the same page).
You'll see that your 8.9% miss rate, due to 41 CS "missed", in fact split into :
- 11 parries (bad boy, just follow the rogue, he's doing it from behind !)
- 21 dodges
- 7 others (quite often "absorb" or "immune")
Doh... in other words the miss% as listed there is the sum of all of the boss avoidance? Thanks for pointing out the obvious for me. And yea, I understand the parries, *smacks self on hand*.
Thanks again for taking a look, I feel much better now!
Just a quick question about the Berserking information posted on the original post: is this confirmed anywhere? While I am certainly noticing around 35-45% uptime, I am definitely not seeing a 35% proc chance. On a 3:30ish Patchwerk fight I am getting around 6 procs and 2-3 refreshes on a total of 250ish swings that have the ability to proc the effect.
Wow Web Stats - Note I got about 7 procs with about 100 seconds of uptime on a 228 second battle.
Additionally, the Roguecraft Spreadsheet assumes Berserking at a given 1.2ppm, which is similar if not identical to Mongoose. If 35% proc chance was indeed correct, most classes would have 100% uptime which is certainly not happening.
I am curious to see some WWS reports from people who are wearing top end gear without the 2 or 4 piece bonuses from T7. I will wear leather if I have to but I would like to think that the 4 piece bonus is much better than going for the top dps pieces.
Just a quick question about the Berserking information posted on the original post: is this confirmed anywhere? While I am certainly noticing around 35-45% uptime, I am definitely not seeing a 35% proc chance. On a 3:30ish Patchwerk fight I am getting around 6 procs and 2-3 refreshes on a total of 250ish swings that have the ability to proc the effect.
Wow Web Stats - Note I got about 7 procs with about 100 seconds of uptime on a 228 second battle.
My WoW Web Stats agree with yours. That's the longest fight I could find where I was almost continually hitting, to provide the most data points. Total uptime was 138 seconds from 343, or 40%. Patch in the same raid was 35% uptime. Looking at the appropriate section of the OP, "proc rate" may indeed have been used interchangeably with "uptime".
While we're on the subject of Berserking: looking at both my stats and Flexbutt's, Berserk procs become much rarer in the last 60 seconds of a boss fight. If in the last 20% we're spamming Hammer as it comes off CD, Divine Storm gets squeezed out of the rotation as there's always something better to use on a single target. The obvious explanation is that Hammer can't proc Berserking, but my sample size is too small to prove it. Has anyone observed Berserk proccing or refreshing from a Hammer?
My WoW Web Stats agree with yours. That's the longest fight I could find where I was almost continually hitting, to provide the most data points. Total uptime was 138 seconds from 343, or 40%. Patch in the same raid was 35% uptime. Looking at the appropriate section of the OP, "proc rate" may indeed have been used interchangeably with "uptime".
While we're on the subject of Berserking: looking at both my stats and Flexbutt's, Berserk procs become much rarer in the last 60 seconds of a boss fight. If in the last 20% we're spamming Hammer as it comes off CD, Divine Storm gets squeezed out of the rotation as there's always something better to use on a single target. The obvious explanation is that Hammer can't proc Berserking, but my sample size is too small to prove it. Has anyone observed Berserk proccing or refreshing from a Hammer?
Well, the reason I didn't assume that it was a confusion of terms is because Arikah specifically stated that it is not ppm, while the rogue threads specifically states that it is. I was trying to clear up which claim is the correct one.
I'm assuming hammer of wrath does not proc it, and similarly I would consider if judgements do either. I guess this would involve an annoying process of standing 10 yards from the dummy and only judging/hammering.
Just a small correction. The Darkmoon card is unique-equipped.
This is true, but you can have 1 str card and 1 agility card both equipped at the same time. I tested this on the PTR and found that both cards are equippable, but that the proc is shared between them. I could not get two procs less than 45 seconds apart using 2 cards with a fair bit of testing, so I am absolutely convinced that double DMC:G is a terrible idea. Too bad, because if the procs were independent the DMC:G x2 setup would be the best trinket combo in the game by far.
While we're on the subject of Berserking: looking at both my stats and Flexbutt's, Berserk procs become much rarer in the last 60 seconds of a boss fight. If in the last 20% we're spamming Hammer as it comes off CD, Divine Storm gets squeezed out of the rotation as there's always something better to use on a single target. The obvious explanation is that Hammer can't proc Berserking, but my sample size is too small to prove it. Has anyone observed Berserk proccing or refreshing from a Hammer?
From the description, Berserking seems to proc only off of melee abilities. Hammer of Wrath is considered a ranged attack, and thus it makes sense that it would not proc Berserking (causing your proc rate to decrease).
Last edited by Left : 01/07/09 at 3:09 PM.
Reason: Added a quote for context
I believe I'm the one that did napkin math to come up with about 35% uptime (not proc chance). We finally had several logs/WWS posted which showed chain procs/refreshes and what not. Just taking the provided data we found that the average up time was about 35%.
It's possible the rogues have more data to determine 1.2 PPM, but I think more likely they just assumed based on Mongoose rather than crunching numbers. 1.2 PPM, however, seems low. 1.2 PPM would be at most 1.2 * 15 / 60 or about 30% uptime. Now, since it can chain-proc uptime would be lower than 30% as some of your precious, precious procs happen before the buff wears off, gaining you less than 15 extra seconds. I.e. proc one at 0 seconds, proc 2 at 5 seconds, debuff wears off at 20 seconds, compared to proc one at 0, proc to at 15, wears off at 30 - the first is lost uptime.
I came to 35% effective up-time, this was after any time "lost" by a refresh-proc before original proc wore off.
Anything below 27.5% uptime would be worse than Massacre. Since it can chain proc and "refresh" mid-proc I sincerely hope it's better than 1.2 PPM, otherwise it probably is worse than Massacre. As the evidence to date shows it is indeed better than Massacre, I doubt it is 1.2 PPM.
Only autoattack, CS, and DS should proc - Judgements, Consecrate, Exorcism, Holy Wrath, Holy Shock (gogo Holy DPS?), and Hammer of Wrath would not proc. This is actually an advantage of DS being physical damage rather than Holy.
Edit: Proved myself wrong - Judgement will proc Berserking.
Sorry yeah, 35% proc chance was supposed to read 35% uptime, will update the OP. I'm not convinced it is a PPM based enchant though, as PPM's don't tend to chain proc; if there is solid evidence it is indeed a PPM mechanic then i'll update that too. Hammer of wrath doesn't proc it, but I'm suspecting that judgements actually do (melee attack with ranged mechanics that cannot be used while silenced, fucking paladins...) - if someone with a berserk'd weapon could go and test this I can add that to the op as well.
I'm trying to decide whether or not it's worth socketing an [Enchanted Tear] over a [Bold Scarlet Ruby] in my [Valorous Redemption Shoulderplates]. If I remember correctly, the Tear was discussed as a preferred gem for socketing the blue gem requirements of our preferred helmet metas. But Rawr lists this as a slight DPS loss, is this because it's not taking meta requirements into account?
Overall, I'm trying to decide whether or not to re-gem and re-enchant my [Death-Inured Sabatons] for DPS instead of hit since I have a pair of [Crude Discolored Battlegrips] in my bank. I'm trying to avoid being over the hit cap. Fee free to review my armory since it's up-to-date with what I normally run with.
01/06/09, 4:55 AM
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