Setting it to Undead gives you 6% instead of 3%. Setting it to Other should only give you 3%.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> [BUG] Bladestorm being slowed
May help explain this a bit. Not the exact same thing, but this falls under the same catagory.

so sidetracking a bit here

But in an example 4-5 minute fight, I've always popped AW at the start, and then towards the end (waiting till 20% unless for some reason I think I can get a 3rd time in)... my guild usually does heroism towards the end, but way earlier than 20% (usually like 40-30%)

I've always thought it would be better to get two AWs that don't stack with heroism, vs just one AW that does stack with heroism - was I wrong from the beginning?

And with the buff to haste.. is it now always better to stack AW/heroism, or is it much better to get two AWs in a fight regardless of any heroism timings?

Well... Heroism should usually be called ~20% (depending on the raid leader). Most fights allow the use of 2 AW, one of which more often than not is during a Heroism, but yes you get more out of a AW during heroism. If the fight length only allows one then wait for heroism.

It's mainly just knowing how long the fight should last.

Edit:Nevermind, apparently it's better to blow Heroism at the start of a fight. I'll have to pass this to my raid leaders

Heroism/Bloodlust should be called as soon as threat allows it with all cooldowns popped. It's only when there's a burn phase in the fight that it should be saved (along with cooldowns).

Heroism / Bloodlust Theory

Unless something in the encounter requires it(Like Maexnna at 30% and Sartharion with Drakes) we use Bloodlust in the beginning of each fight, of course we let the tank get it, but after 10-20 seconds we pop Bloodlust, i always wait for Bloodlust to cast AW.

Maybe it would be better to cast Bloodlust around 45 seconds into the fight, by then all relevant debuffs should be up, and our procs are usually once per minute, so waiting could give us bloodlust + procs more efficiently, in any case i think it's smarter to use Bloodlust as quickly as possible

Edit: I were too late :/

A couple things.

This thread is about providing min/max information. Being as prepared as we can be before we enter Ulduar is tantamount to the success of any serious raiding Retribution Paladin (IE those using this thread) looking to push into Ulduar strongly, both normal, heroic, and their corresponding hard modes.

Secondly, just because an upgrade exists doesn't mean it will drop and just because it drops does not mean it's automatically yours. We have to compete for DPS gear between plate classes and 2 leather classes and tier tokens with two other classes. Guilds will still be doing Malygos10 and Sartharion2D+ because they take 30~ minutes total and will still provide good gear.

Lastly, quite a few pieces have staying power, namely the ilvl 226 items. Any KT, Malygos, or Sarth2D+ drop will likely be replaced last, if at all. And some, Greatness specifically, won't get upgraded by known Ulduar gear. I have no doubt that I'll still be sporting a handful of pieces two months from now, simply because of RNG loot or crappy rolls on my behalf.

So, with all that, I think a preUlduar BiS list is very relevant to anyone who the aforementioned applies to (aka everyone raiding Ulduar). And most of us who kept up with the PTR changes and this thread took the initiative of obtaining the pieces we needed to fit our changing needs.

I see a lot of people puting up calculations of ulduar BIS gear (known ofc) for ret paladin and coming up to theoretical numbers around 5800+ dps.

A lot has been spoken on the damage we gained/lost between 3.0 and 3.1, ranging from lack of undead mobs, to the nerf of righteous vengeance, to the buffing os exorcism, etc,etc,etc.


I have a lot of interest for another class (warlock) and going on their simulations, i see theoretical dps ranging from 6500 dps (worse spec) to 6900 dps (best theoretical spec), and those simulations are being done with... tier7.5 gear.

I can't help but feel a little unease with 3 situations:

a) Lack of theoretical dps - Every single parse from 3.1 i've seen so far shows ret paladins below all hybrids.
b) 20% of our dps rotation is aoe based - might be a problem in CC / control situations (that are non-existing so far but heard in 3.1 have a comeback)
c) Armor penetration is the new "FOTM" wich does less for us than other melee classes


Please dont consider this a general QQ. I love my ret pala and i'm genuinely concerned about the "fun" part of the game for me in ulduar (b) and ofc, the general performance (a).


For all the theorycrafting people out there, do we have a chance to compete or ... not?

The shift in damage from Judgement onto Seals was one of the last changes to hit the PTR and it is the major reason our itemization has changed so drastically. I've been keeping up with the PTR patch-by-patch and unless you had an inside source inside of Blizzard I don't see how most people could have most (if any) of that gear outside of the stuff that was already BiS under the old weights. Thowing up a BiS like this when guilds have at most one more raid week before Ulduar seems pointless. If the patch rolls out on this Tuesday then most of his list is going to be impossible to obtain due to guilds dropping Naxx. The Maly and 2d Sarth gear is slightly more reasonable due to how quick they are, but I still can't see progression guilds giving either of these two encounters any sort of priority in 3.1.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that there isn't any point to be freaking over not being optimized when first stepping into Ulduar. Our stat weights have changed dramatically and most people are not going to have the luxury of having a bank full of back-up hit/expertise gear lying around to make the switch. If you were in mostly BiS gear before 3.1 you are going to do fine in Ulduar and pick up gear that is better suited to the job in a new instance that is going to be fun and challenging (hopefully). Fretting over Naxx/Maly/Sarth gear at this point is just plain silly.

Just as you admitted, people are going to have at least one, maybe two, cycles before 3.1 drops to continue running Naxx. That gives you a couple chances to pick up these pieces before running off to Ulduar. There is absolutely no reason not to grab any of these pieces that may drop while finishing up farming.

There is a very good reason to be worried about being optimized. This is a forum for high level cutting-edge raiding. Yes, you can get by wearing sub-par gear, but the entire point of this thread's existence is to determine what the optimal way to play a retribution paladin is. On top of that, it seems a lot of people are assuming Ulduar is just another Naxx where you can waltz in in greens and clear the instance. It isn't. Ulduar is actually fairly difficult (not Sunwell level by any means, but harder than I remember Hyjal being back in the day at the least), anything you can do to make it easier (by increasing your DPS) is a good thing.

No one is fretting or freaking out. We're just getting ready to push as hard as we can as quickly as we can.

For those of you like me, who don't have access to the best in slot leather (never picked it up) and don't plan on getting it a week before ulduar I made a list still using 4 piece bonus to the highest potential DPS I could find.

Obsidian Greathelm - Bold Dragon's Eye, Chaotic Skyfire Diamond, Arcanum of Torrent
Favor of the Dragon Queen - Bold Dragon's Eye
Valorous Redemption Shoulderplates - Bold Dragon's Eye, Greater Inscription of the Axe
Drape of the Deadly Foe - Major Agility
Valorous Redemption Chestpiece - 2x Bold Scarlet Ruby, Powerful Stats
Bracers of Unrelenting Attack - Bold Scarlet Ruby, Greater Assault
Valorous Redemption Gauntlets - Bold Scarlet Ruby, Crusher
Girdle of Chivalry - 2x Bold Scarlet Ruby
Valorous Redemption Legplates - Bold Scarlet Ruby, Etched Monarch Topaz, Icescale Leg Armor
Iron-Spring Jumpers - Icewalker
Surge-Needle Ring - Assault
Ruthlessness - Assault
Fury of the Five Flights
Darkmoon Card: Greatness
Betrayer of Humanity - Beserking

6,956 AP
42.11% Crit Chance
0.07% Miss Chance (7.93% hit / 260 rating)
3.72% Dodge Chance (11 Expertise / 91 rating)
39.67% Melee Haste (328 haste rating)
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Using this combination as a JC/Enchanter, not utilizing the crusade talent by selecting Other as mob type, I came up with 5803 dps. The only other change I made to buffs was add improved windfury totem and de-selecting heroic presence since I am horde.

As Alliance I selected Heroic Presence and replaced Iron-Spring Jumpers with Dawnwalkers, and changed out the 8str8hit gem in leggings for 16 str gem and received 5858 dps as a result.

_____________________________________________________

On a side note, Mark of Norgannon shows as a 40 dps loss over FotFF but stilll is 3rd best trinket to use. I've been kind of unlucky with Sarth, even though I've been killing him since the beginning of December.

Also while goofing around with the FCFS Simulator I ended up getting a higher dps using Divine Storm > Judgement > Crusader Strike > Hammer of Wrath > Consecration > Exorcism. I could only simulate this using 4 piece bonus. Using this rotation only granted 2 more dps, but I thought it was kind of neat.

Rotation Info showed as - Crusader Strike 7.58, Judgement 7.58, Consecration 10.72, Exorcism 15.16, Divine Storm 10.1, Hammer of Wrath 7.8