The Retribution Paladin Thread (Wrath/3.0) - Page 31

vorda · 01/16/09, 12:18 PM

Off topic, but you'll want to change that signature asap before kaubel finds you.

The double proccing from JoW had to do with judgement refreshing. The poster a few posts above explained it pretty correctly.

flexbutt · 01/16/09, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Hyperial

Does vindication no longer proc JoW? never bothered to test this in wrath.

Also will the BS/JC combination still be our best when Epic gems come out making a much smaller gap between the dragon-gems and the regular one, atm the difference is 11str, when the 20str epics go live it'll end up being a 7str different giving us a totall of 42ap.

The first question was being discussed only a few posts up.

As for the second question, I don't think you're also factoring in your ability to avoid meta requirements with prismatic gems. Also, 42 ap is inaccurate. Suppose for the sake of min/maxing, you are only putting Dragon's Eyes in blue sockets. Instead of going from 20 strength to 27, you are going from 10strength/15stamina to 27. That is 17 strength per, or 51 strength (which is not 102 ap, it's 116 pre-BoK). Even if you were planning on putting red gems in 2 of them, it is still 31 strength, or 72ap.

Hyperial · 01/16/09, 12:30 PM

The 42ap was stated as a stand alone, you're saying that even with epic quality gems coming out JCing will still be greater then enchanting (64ap)? what if future gear is filled with red socket bonuses, and I reach the meta requirement for 21agi 3% crit damage with a single tear?

flexbutt · 01/16/09, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Hyperial

The 42ap was stated as a stand alone, you're saying that even with epic quality gems coming out JCing will still be greater then enchanting (64ap)? what if future gear is filled with red socket bonuses, and I reach the meta requirement for 21agi 3% crit damage with a single tear?

The 42 ap is still incorrect. 21 strength is 48 ap, not including Kings. I think it's safe to say that what you are now suggesting will be unrealistic, but even if what you suggested is true, using 3x27str gems over 20x2 and a tear is still a 35 strength increase, which is still about 80ap.

Hyperial · 01/16/09, 12:42 PM

I'm not suggesting that it could happen, epic gems will happen, and when it does the only benefit (Untalented, without kings and not factoring socket bonuses of any sort.) from JCing is an extra 21 of any stat (str in this case.) and removing any requirements from a meta.

flexbutt · 01/16/09, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Hyperial

48ap? you are getting the extra 6 ap from Divine strength I'm assuming still making it a static 42 ap with out talents, I'm not suggesting that it could happen, epic gems will happen, and when it does the only benefit (Untalented, without kings and not factoring socket bonuses of any sort.) from JCing is an extra 21 of any stat (str in this case.) and removing any requirements from a meta.

I am unsure of what information you are trying to gather at this point. This is a thread for Ret Paladins, and it is pretty much assumed you'd have Divine Strength. If you do not have a meta gem and all of your sockets are mysteriously red and you don't have Divine Strength or Blessing of Kings, then yeah sure another profession is better. Is that the answer you were looking for?

Cranmer · 01/16/09, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Hyperial

Will the BS/JC combination still be our best when Epic gems come out making a much smaller gap between the dragon-gems and the regular one, atm the difference is 11str, when the 20str epics go live it'll end up being a 7str difference giving us a totall of 42ap.

The gap will be smaller, but JC will still be superior, if only by the fact that you can virtually ignore meta requirements (and get the better 21crit meta). You also are able to pick up some rather nice set bonuses, depending on the gear slot (+8 strength in T7 helm, for example). Each of those has to be factored in.

EDIT: 2 posts said the same before I posted

Rukiia · 01/16/09, 12:56 PM

With regards to JC there might very well be new prismatic gems in the future. At this time the [Bold Dragon's Eye] only requires 375 skill. Do not rule out the possibility for upgrades.

• frmorrison · 01/16/09, 12:59 PM

Yes, JC/BS will still be the best after epic gems. I seriously doubt new JC only gems will come out until 4.0, otherwise the gap between JC and other professions will grow.

Remember, 21 str gain is incorrect and the advantage of JC is the dragon's eye gems cover all colors (so you get socket bonus) and you don't need to use Blue/Yellow/+6 to all stats gems for meta.

flexbutt · 01/16/09, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Rukiia

With regards to JC there might very well be new prismatic gems in the future. At this time the [Bold Dragon's Eye] only requires 375 skill. Do not rule out the possibility for upgrades.

It's certainly possible, but even if there won't be new prismatics, jewelcrafting still comes out above the other professions when you need to fill a meta requirement.

Hyperial · 01/16/09, 1:40 PM

Originally Posted by flexbutt

I am unsure of what information you are trying to gather at this point. This is a thread for Ret Paladins, and it is pretty much assumed you'd have Divine Strength. If you do not have a meta gem and all of your sockets are mysteriously red and you don't have Divine Strength or Blessing of Kings, then yeah sure another profession is better. Is that the answer you were looking for?

I'm trying to find the better combination of professions before I drop one for another if it isn't painfully obvious already.

Yes I am aware that this is a Ret Paladin thread, if you are going to assume at the very least be accurate in those assumptions 21strx2.2 = 46.2ap not 48.

You can achieve the meta requirement of this meta Relentless Earthsiege Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft with a single Relentless Earthsiege Diamond - Item - World of Warcraft or Enchanted Tear - Item - World of Warcraft

Currently there are 4 Best in Slot items with blue slots, these are Obsidian Greathelm - Item - World of Warcraft, Valorous Redemption Shoulderplates - Item - World of Warcraft, Bracers of Unrelenting Attack - Item - World of Warcraft and Belabored Legplates - Item - World of Warcraft the socket bonuses giving a totall of 12str, 6crit, and 4 hit.

This wasn't a question of whether or not JC/BS is the best combination. (This is of course true.) It is asking if in the future with the introduction to epic gems or future variations of the current ones with a hypothetical scenario where most or all of the sockets in the higher tiers might be red sockets, not blue or yellow.

There are quite a few Ret's out there considering dropping professions for JCing I intend on proving or disproving it's value in the future before I take that step.

Hyperial · 01/16/09, 2:04 PM

Thanks for the critique you pushed me to do all the work no one else would, to come up with the the end result of gear selection bonus from JCing.

(27strx3=81 - 16strx3=48) = 33 (33str+12str x 2.3+10%) = 139.1ap, 6 crit, and 4 hit.

Vs. Hypothetical Red Socket only gear and Epic Quality Gems

(27strx3=81 - 20str3=60) = 21 (21x2.3+10%) = 53.13 Let's hope there will be more str bonuses in future blue socketed gear.

This was based purely on the stats gained by blue socket bonuses from the Best in Slot items currently attainable in wrath.

Hythloday · 01/16/09, 2:12 PM

Originally Posted by Hyperial

what if

I don't really see the point of speculating along these lines. What if a new profession, Gerbil Training, is introduced in 3.1 that gives +500 str? All those JCs are going to look pretty silly then! (More seriously, what if JCs get the ability to cut new BoP gems or trinkets, as has happened in the past?)

If you want to estimate a time for introducing epic gems, I don't think it will be at the same time as they introduce the remaining superior gem cuts that aren't already in the game. So you're looking at either Ulduar or the patch after that.

Divine Strength is 15% bonus strength, not 10% as you calculated it, which accounts for the 46.2/48 AP discrepancy. Lastly, you didn't add the "opportunity cost" for non-JCs in having to swap out a Bold Cardinal Ruby (if they ever actually exist) for an Enchanted Tear. We then get:

Currently:

27 * 3 - 16 * 3 = 33 net str from the Dragon's Eyes
33 + 12 = 55 str from the picked up socket bonuses
55 * 2.3 * 1.1 = 139ap, 6 crit, and 4 hit. (after talents, buffs, and non-str socket bonuses)

After Epic Gems:

27 * 3 - 20 * 3 = 21 net str from the Dragon's Eyes
21 + (20 - 6) = 35 (Opportunity cost of an [Enchanted Tear]), the JC is at -6 agi/int though
35 * 2.3 * 1.1 = ~88.5ap, -6 agi and -6 int (after talents and buffs) The lost agi is almost completely made up for by using the superior meta gem (crit rating instead of agi).

Conclusion:

JC will still be superior to enchanting even after epic gems, even on entirely red-socketed gear, due to the larger opportunity cost of activating a meta gem.

Delita · 01/16/09, 2:18 PM

yea, DS + BoK = 1.15 (Str modifier) * 2.2 (AP/str with kings) so 1 Str = 2.53 AP

rldolph79 · 01/16/09, 2:18 PM

Originally Posted by Hyperial

Yes I am aware that this is a Ret Paladin thread, if you are going to assume at the very least be accurate in those assumptions 21strx2.2 = 46.2ap not 48.

Whatever your intent, you're coming across like that kid that thinks he already knows everything and just wants to hear someone else say that he's right... Not the best way to present yourself when you're supposedly looking for help.

Now, if you are going to correct someone at the very least be accurate in your correction. 21x2.3=48.3 AP. Divine strength is 15% now, not 10%.

Cranmer · 01/16/09, 3:05 PM

Originally Posted by Hythloday

I don't really see the point of speculating along these lines. What if a new profession, Gerbil Training, is introduced in 3.1 that gives +500 str?

Any one else really intrigued about the idea of Gerbil Training? I'll make a Suggestion post.....brb.

Back to raiding: I've been looking over my wws threads from the last few naxx/patch runs and have noticed that I do not have any conflicting points where I and a priest are trying to regen mana. I also am the only retri raiding. Perhaps this is why I have been generally confused why some go oom in a flash (since I never do) and vice versa why some experience issues there.

flexbutt · 01/16/09, 3:08 PM

It definitely seems like it could be clashing Replenishment. It probably doesn't happen to me because I open with Judgement, but it could be a bit more complicated than that.

Arikah · 01/16/09, 3:38 PM

Clashing replen might be a culprit, but why does it only appear to happen on patchwerk? Surely if clashing replen was the problem it would be noted on other bosses that we don't gain SA mana from (eg: noth, anub, maex). It would explain why I personally don't see it (we only run 2 replenishment, 1 ret 1 spriest, and I open with judgement) but it doesn't explain why it's seen on patchwerk only.

Updated the OP again with addons and patch crap, I wish they'd make up their minds with Vengeance stacks

flexbutt · 01/16/09, 4:13 PM

I just attempted to test this with a shadow priest activating replenishment first and then me judging and managed to proc JotW. So it's not as simple as 2 people clashing.

MilaraEO · 01/16/09, 10:52 PM

The slime on Patchwerk lowers mana as well as health down to 30% or so and at that moment in the slime it shows as your "maximum" amount. As replenishment works by using a percentage of your current maximum mana, my guess is that stepping into the slime lowers the mana regen tick. The slime is the only variable with Patchwerk that I can think of that isn't present with other bosses.

flexbutt · 01/16/09, 11:09 PM

What? I don't think the people who are having the JotW bug are stepping in the slime.

J1M · 01/17/09, 3:36 AM

Originally Posted by MilaraEO

The slime on Patchwerk lowers mana as well as health down to 30% or so and at that moment in the slime it shows as your "maximum" amount. As replenishment works by using a percentage of your current maximum mana, my guess is that stepping into the slime lowers the mana regen tick. The slime is the only variable with Patchwerk that I can think of that isn't present with other bosses.

Perhaps when you get the buff is when the value to restore is calculated, not each tick and you get of the normal regen from one when it is activated while you are in the slime.

MilaraEO · 01/17/09, 4:35 AM

Originally Posted by flexbutt

What? I don't think the people who are having the JotW bug are stepping in the slime.

Then what else could possibly cause Patchwerk to be the only boss this bug has been noticed on? The slime interfering with the normal operation of replenishment and/or JotW and/or DP which all operate on percent of maximum mana is the only guess I can come up with. If any of these effects happen while debuffed it's possible it messes up the operation at least long enough for the paladins experiencing the bug to drop low on mana. If this isn't the case then I can't think of anything else that is unique to Patchwerk and his environment.

Cranmer · 01/17/09, 4:50 AM

Originally Posted by MilaraEO

The slime on Patchwerk lowers mana as well as health down to 30% or so and at that moment in the slime it shows as your "maximum" amount. As replenishment works by using a percentage of your current maximum mana, my guess is that stepping into the slime lowers the mana regen tick. The slime is the only variable with Patchwerk that I can think of that isn't present with other bosses.

I am one of those who have fewer mana issues on Patch (usually none). I never jump in the slime, either. Least it's something to consider. I can't see how reducing mana to 50% before you start the fight is the way to go. Better to wait for all tanks to have aggro and go with 100%

It would not be entirely out of the question, either, for an issue to be Patch related. It is a unique fight in that we get next to no heals and so get a harsh light shone on our mana regen issues. Every other fight SA papers over the cracks.

flexbutt · 01/17/09, 4:56 AM

Originally Posted by MilaraEO

Then what else could possibly cause Patchwerk to be the only boss this bug has been noticed on? The slime interfering with the normal operation of replenishment and/or JotW and/or DP which all operate on percent of maximum mana is the only guess I can come up with. If any of these effects happen while debuffed it's possible it messes up the operation at least long enough for the paladins experiencing the bug to drop low on mana. If this isn't the case then I can't think of anything else that is unique to Patchwerk and his environment.

The WWS of the people who reported having this problem did not open the battle with stepping in the slime. There would have been a debuff gain or fade at the very least. Opening a battle by jumping in the slime is a bad idea to begin with, as you lose half of your mana. Just because the slime is a unique thing for Patchwerk doesn't mean it's the only option left. It very well could just be a coding error on Patchwerk.