I go with Spiritual Attunement, Judgement and Consecration Glyph, which one should I replace if I want to test Avenging Wrath Glyph?
Judgement is out of Question, so either SA or Cons?

You should replace the SA glyph, the Consecrate glyph is amazing both for increasing dps and easing our rotation.

I was wondering if anyone had done any testing yet on the combination of Glyph of Judgment, Glyph of Hammer of Wrath, and Glyph of Avenging Wrath. Will this outweigh Glyph of Judgment, Glyph of Consecration, and Glyph of Hammer of Wrath?

Posted updated version of the Bellator's spreadsheet which I maintain: ExemplarWoW Profile, ExemplarWoW Details - FileFront.com. Note, JoW procs are at the 2% value, but haven't altered the proc rate modeling until we know how it works. Edit: Note that this version works with Excel 2007 thanks to fix found by Blazeflack.

SoC vs. SoB
From at least Wrath forward, SoC is unlikely to ever beat SoB/SotM in damage. If it does, Blizzard will likely implement changes to correct this. The reason SoB is constantly set to do more damage is its inherent penalty, self-damage. If SoC with no penalty does more damage, Blizzard considers this flawed and typically corrects co-efficients. I wasn't in Beta, but I saw co-efficients changed every time SoC pulled ahead just from monitoring EJ.

SoC's main drawback is internal cooldown. To prevent self-procs or white+SoC+Windfury+SoC procs it appears Blizzard simply instituted a one second internal cooldown ages ago. This means going all out as Ret there are some times when SoC cannot proc. If a white hit procs a half second before your CS - your CS absolutely cannot proc SoC. Throw a DS - at most one can proc SoC. White hit within 1 second of your CS or DS which procced - cannot proc. This leads you to less than the expected proc per minute. Redcape figured this out with extensive testing and I believe both he and I have implemented modifiers to the proc rate in our spreadsheet to guesstimate the lost SoC to prevent misleading DPS calculations. Even Glyphed SoC winds up a good amount behind SoB.

PvP Gloves
Answered multiple times, please search - gloves are merely so-so. Also don't sign posts.

Glyphs
Judgement and Consecration will remain no-brainers until they come up with better no-brainers.
10% Judgement is huge.
2 seconds on Consecrate is both "free mana" and less cooldown clashes (it matches with DS).

Two breakdowns have been done: Redscape put it at 13 DPS (he didn't specify fight length for this evaluation... it obviously varies widely based on overall fight duration), I managed 20 DPS (at 5k AP, 45% crit, 4min fight). Conclusion: Judgement/Cons/HoW or Judgement/Cons/CS are still the only options.

Ah ok, I had read that but I think I misunderstood. I thought he had only done testing on the Glyph of Avenging Wrath being 13 to 20 DPS increase, not the combination of the HoW and AW. Thanks!

Well, yeah, that's what I meant. Putting HoW and AW glyphs would make that sustainable. I was just curious if that combo would outweigh having HoW and Cons glyphs.

Hey, a first timer

I'm wondering that im sitting at (well pretty lousy stats) of 2865 ap hit capped and 30% crit but only 5 expertise.

I was wondering should I aim for expertise from gear or should I instead gem/enchant it (heard that str should be ench/gemmed with expertise got from gear) I do have the 15 expertise enchant on gloves but no other enchants or gems, just some from gear

Thanks for any replies

Do not gem for expertise. Do not aim for expertise (or hit) cap. Wear whatever set of gear maximizes your DPS and let those stats fall where they may. As long as you're not going OOM there's nothing magic about hitting the caps: they're simply maximums which you should try not to exceed, not minimums you should aspire to.

One Reason I am aiming for the Obsidian Great helm as my offpiece in place of the Frosted Adroit Gloves is partly due to the DPS weigt given to boots at the moment.

The main thrust of the argument of why the gloves are better is due to hit rating. Currently the Boots off malaygos (Melancholy Sabotons) are ranked higher than the Bladed Steel Sabotens from badges (as are Iron Spring Jumpers from NAXX). However, both the malay boots and naxx boots mentioned above have a ton of armor pen rating. Which does not affect a large portion of our dps and just flat out scales terribly right now. Whereas the bladed steel sabotens have more hit.

Despite armor pen being bad I know spreadsheets will still say these are better, but remember that these spreadsheets do not model in the 4 piece set bonus. With the 4 piece bonus you are judging more often, a move which is unaffected by this armor pen but is affected by the hit on these boots.

If one were to switch for the badge boots for the ones of malaygos you would gain a small overall dps upgrade. Your judgements would hit more often while losing the armor pen and 13 str. The 13 str is what hurts the most in this situation but I beleive for how close the overall dps gain the two boots mentioned above bring it is the armor pen which pushes puts the badge boots lower in the list and when taking into account our 4 set bonus I beleive these boots should be docked.

With that said you can reach hit cap when using the badge boots in place for the armor pen and thus making the frosted adroit handguards hit rating worthless.

Also note I intend to use fool's trial over the armor pen neck from the quest turn in for the eye attunment for the same reasoning as above. Fools trial gives 28 extra hit while you lose the armor pen and a minor amount of str.

The evaluation I did was on a 5 minute fight using Judgement/Consecrate/AW glyphs with naxx10 gear. I didn't even try to model the insane mana drain you are going to face using HoW every 3 seconds, and on a lot of fights that is going to be quite significant. I very much feel that Judgement/Consecrate/CS or Judgement/Consecrate/HoW are the only realistic options for now.

My math suggests that HoW is a slightly better Glyph than CS, but it isn't entirely clear at this point. In most WWS parses I have seen (my own included) it seemed like HoW was a better choice for overall savings, but I can see situations where that would not always be true.

The great thing about WoW is you have few options for gear, which are all a few dps of each other. The badge boots are something like 20 dps less than the Maly boots, so does dps matter that much? Also spreadsheets don't exactly equal reality, so sometimes the badge boots would beat the Maly boots and vice versa.

BTW, the Bellator spreadsheet - updated by Exemplar models the 4 piece bonus.

Since no one else has commented on this, I will.

Mightus - this "cycle" is effectively identical to FCFS if you don't model Exorcism and Holy Wrath at all. You are only modeling/prioritizing J/DS/CS/Cons (and please swap Cons and DS if this is indeed how you operate). Intentionally pausing spells nets no increase whatsoever. Our models also extend to Exo and HW, which occasionally delay another cast by 0.5 to 1 second, creating our longer effective cooldowns. No Exo or HW is about a 4% DPS loss in my current gear.

If I expand your model over a greater length of time (say 120 seconds, the length of a seal) I find enough empty GCDs to add Exo and HW into the rotation without delaying other abilities. I gain about 1.5% overall. The drawback? In those two minutes I have only 2 free GCD. One for Divine Plea, one for reseal. This is a potentially significant loss of mana (half your Plea). The regular model has plenty of slack for these free GCD, along with ones for Hand of Salvation or similar raid assists.

The first time you mistakenly hit Exo or HW in a 1 second window you've bumped over to our model. If you fail to cast it in a 1.5 or > window you've lost DPS.

This does point out I'm modeling assuming always using Exo and HW (toggling them off just alters mana consumption and DPS, not rotation). I'll update this in the next version I release, so when people turn off these abilities (to model vs. non-undead) they'll get yet more accurate data.

A few people recently have questioned me about the hit cap for Judgements and I always answer 8% because that is what I have felt it is. Many ask for proof since they are stuck thinking it is 9% and I couldn't really provide much solid evidence which frustrated me. Since I have no life and simply couldn't stand not *knowing*, I went and tested with 8% (8.08% to be exact, it was the closest I could get) hit and 1000 casts later had 0 misses. I now feel pretty confident in saying that Judgement requires only 8% hit to prevent misses. Pretty sure we all knew this but thought I would share the screenshot for those to use as they see fit.

Posting up a comment from a forum regular, didn't know what to answer with as I havn't conducted any testing on the matter of my own, I will this weekend, until then I'll leave the question to you.

Well I tried a search about Righteous Vengeance and saw a few posts...

My Question i was tryin to solve was..

12 Secs 2 Chances To Crit - Now Most Paladins Have 40-50% Crit Buffed During Raids. Sooo

2 Chances in 12 Secs To Judge Crit.... Over 1 Chance To Divine Storm Crit.

If I Judge Crit 14000 Have a 40% Dot Ticking For 6 Seconds of 933 Damage To a Total of 5600,

& Then Divine Storm Criting For 4500 & Does The Timer Reset Or Does It Reset To 300 for 6 Secs for 1800 Damage....

In other words will a weaker RV DoT not only refresh RV but take its place in the process?

This have been asked way too many times.

You do NOT lose any damage when RV get refreshed by another critical DS/Judgement. The debuff will reset, but the damage that haven't harmed the target yet, will be added in addition to the damage from the "new"/refreshing tick.

If lets say Judgement crit for 8000 damage. Righteous Vengance will be put on the target dealing 40% of this damage.
3200 damage over 8 seconds. The debuff tick every second, 400 damage.

4 seconds after the judgement crit, you deal a 4000 damage crit with Divine Storm. That's 200 damage each tick, counting DS only!

But, in reality it will in this situation tick for 400 damage. Why? Because the first Righteous Vengeance have dealt only 1600 damage, while it "promise" to deal 3200.

The 1600 leftover damage is instead of just dropping off, added to the new crit. (First RV leftovers + New RV debuff) / 8 = damage per tick. You don't loose any damage.

Conclusion: 40% additional damage == 40% additional damage!

I have been using Rawr for quite sometime with great results.

However I am now seeing that Mirror is only listed as having 84 crit and no proc bonus? As a result it drops fairly far down the list in regards to DPS. I am thinking that i can simply go in and edit the item and add a flat AP value (~166 considering a PPM of 1, just using what i saw on patch this week) and this should fix how its ranked?

Is my math close and is this how i should go about fixing it? Or am I just touching on something that isn't broke and there is no proc value assigned for some reason?

Just looking for a little clarification.

Rawr has issues with procs on trinkets, so you have to manually edit the item with AP you feel is right. I put in 150 AP.

Also the trinket that does an instant spell hit needs to be edited (I put in the Shattered Sun proc).

The trinket which has the instant spell proc is Bandit's Insignia. It gives 190 constant atttack power. I have often heard that Mirror is better than Bandits. If 150 attack power is the avergaed out attack power for the Mirror wouldn't Bandit's 40 extra attack power over time and the spell dmg proc on Bandit's be better than the static crit on Mirror?

When the boss is below 20% wouldn't it be better to switch to something like this and fill in the 1 second gaps with exorcism, or holy wrath when they are up?

Hi, i was searching for a macro rotation to maximize my dps and i found one searching through some forums. It was made with a 4 piece T7 bonus in mind, but since i only have 3, well... i don't know how much impact will have on my rotation. Anyone could help me with this macro? I have 2/2 IMP Judgement on my talents and since i never used macros while raiding, this one really boosted my dps (200-400 more at the Heroic Training Dummy). The only downside is that it burns my mana REALLY FAST...

Thanks.

Mightus, issues with your HoW rotation:
A) When the boss hits 20% you cannot afford to wait for your cooldowns to all come up and line up nicely. 99% of the time one or more of these abilities will already be on cooldown, waiting for things to line up is lost DPS time.

B) At 20% HoW is your most important spell - it becomes priority one. Judgement drops to priority two. Consecrate drops to priority three - I'm not sure why you keep putting it at the bottom of your rotation. HoW > J > Cons > CS > DS > Exo > HW.

HoW may have slightly less damage per hit and crit than JoB, but its crit rate means a much higher percentage of crits, easily pulling it ahead of JoB with a few casts.

Having done some more mapping (but not all combos I would like to consider), I am finding that for maximum DPS you prioritize differently based on two factors: 8/7 second judgements and undead/not. My modeling is not complete, but I'm finding different priorities better for these differing circumstances. I.e. it's not always best to J > Cons > CS > DS, sometimes J > CS > Cons > DS may be superior.

These all, of course, assume zero latency and perfect button pushing. As the saying goes, "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is."


Cafisho - don't use a macro. Prioritize your best currently available spell. Currently the rule of thumb is:
Judgement if you can
Consecrate if Judge on cooldown
CS if Judgement and Consecrate on cooldown
DS if Judge, Cons, CS on cooldown
Exo if Judge, Cons, CS, DS on cooldown
HW if all above on cooldown

This rule of thumb could change in the near future based on what type of creature you are fighting and whether you have 4 piece bonus or not.