Judgement "stacking" (not sure if this is a bug or a "feature")

If you are a prot paladin with the 20% attack speed debuff or a ret paladin with the 3% crit debuff it is vital that you communicate with the other paladins in the raid about what judgements they are using. The reason for this when you judge your debuff is applied to the mob, but if another paladin uses the same judgement and does not have the same debuff yours will be removed. I have tested and confirmed this.

Example:
Ret and holy paladin are both judging wisdom on a boss fight. The ret paladin judges wisdom and the mob gains the 3% crit debuff, then a few seconds later the holy paladin judges wisdom (for the haste buff). The timer on JoW is correctly refreshed, but the mob will lose the 3% crit debuff since the holy paladin's judgement does not have the debuff. If it was a prot paladin judging instead of a holy paladin the 3% crit debuff would be replaced with the 20% attack speed debuff.

A simply solution is to assign judgements based on your roll. For example if you have all three specs of paladins in a raid you need to assign a judgement to each spec. If ret is judging wisdom, prot light, and holy justice then both debuffs can exist on the mob and holy can judge for haste without worrying about removing debuffs.

Personally i am using [Venture Co. Libram of Retribution] until [Savage Gladiator's Libram of Fortitude] is available. However i see a lot of people using the crusader strike libram, maybe i am just missing something very obvious.

The CS libram from heroic Naxx is better than the DS Libram. However, any of the Ret PvP librams are better than either of those (not available until Dec 17th).


Towards the trinket question, Mirror of Truth is ~150 AP and 84 Crit. That is better for me than the Emerald Boar (just put your 27 Str gems somewhere else).

I did a short test on a heroic target dummy to test my hit rating.
I have 173 hit rating and the results are confusing.

So, I get ~4% ghost hit on everything except Judgement.
Judgement uses the Melee hit, right?
I have no idea whats going on.

Notice that missed Judgements show up as Judgement of Wisdom/Light instead of Judgement of Command/Martyr in Recount.

I did some quick napkin math and came up with the opposite... Lemme know if/where I went wrong.

All these numbers assume you have 0 latency and use the attached ability immediately as it comes off cd:

Libram of Radiance
115.5/6s = 19.25 dps
Assuming 40% crit that breaks down to:
19.25*0.6 + 38.5*0.4 = 26.95 dps

Venture Co. Libram of Retribution
73 crit*0.8 = 58.4 effective crit rating
Using Redcape's numbers for crit
x/58.4 = 73.56/100 --> x = 42.96 dps

Is the 115.5 damage of the LoR multiplied by something I'm not thinking of or is my math wrong somewhere?

edit: Added crit's effect on the LoR.

The 115 extra damage on CS is affected by all the CS affecting talents, like PvP gloves and Art of War (10%). Also the normal % increases. This should add to (10% + 6% + 15% + 2% + 3%, maybe there are more) are still there. So that is a 36% increase, so 157.1 damage added.

Also the extra damage will crit, so assume a 35% crit rate, so 157.1 + .35*(157)*1.03 = 213 damage every 6.5 seconds (normal cooldown), so 33 dps.

Also note DS normally has a 11.5 seconds between uses, so 50.7 Crit Rating so 37 dps by Redcape's numbers.

So they are close and I may have forgot something. I prefer the Naxx libram.


Anyway, in a few weeks it doesn't matter because any of the PvP librams are better.

Well, Alliance post 2.3 and pre-3.0 had a badge libram that was decent.

Having the 3rd best libram (other two require Arena rating) come from doing a few PvP games and a week of Arena doesn't sound that bad. The only issue is it not being available until six weeks after Release.


You did you calcs incorrectly for the Naxx libram, you need to do the additive % first, then divide. Order of operations is important.

I've noticed this as well. I'm guessing that our ghost hit is only affecting melee hit, and since Judgement is a ranged attack, it is not benefitting.

I want to address the original post where it is stated that there is a certain amount of crit needed to maintain a rolling RV stack. This is not how RV works. It adds the new critical damage onto any remaining damage in the dot and then resets the duration with the new damage total. There is absolutely no need to maintain the stack in any fashion, the stack falling off does not cause you to lose dps.

Secondly, there is no need to cap out expertise and hit. They are fine stats, but the best way to gear is to simply weight every stat according to how much extra damage it makes you do and hit is roughly 75% as good as str, and expertise is 50% as good. Missing may feel bad to some people, but the fact is that str makes you more effective at doing damage than anything else. Hit capping does have the pleasant side effect of smoother mana regeneration, but capping expertise deliberately simply isn't necessary.

If anyone wants really detailed rankings of stats so you can select gear, there are 2 threads in this forum you need to check out:

1. Spreadsheet

2. A mod to make gear selection easy

This is from the 3% hit generated by raid debuffs, most likely. And when you missed, the debuff probably wasn't up.

I ran naxx with 199 hit rating and did not miss. i'm going to try with 175 Hit rating next week and see how I go, to confirm whether the cap is at 8% or 9%

The 3% Hit Debuff, from Misery and Imp FF, is spell only... unless Blizz has some messed up code from the 3.0 Rating conversions.

I've been running naxx10 without SP or moonkin - zero melee misses with about 5.5% hit. So it seems it's our own inbuilt bug/feature.

No, those debuffs are only spell hit, which is good for Cons and the undead attacks.


What is happening is the "ghost" Precision is 3% hit with weapons is still active on many players. Since Judgement can be used while disarmed, maybe that is not getting the hit.

I know a got a few misses with SotR with 4% hit as well as having 3% ghost hit on level 80s, because it is a shield based attack not a weapon based attack.

Edit: removed after re-reading.

In last nights raid with 197 hit rating=6.01% and over 2000 hits combining CS/DS/Autoattack/Judgement, I had a grand total of 0 misses. Just another data point to add.

I tried using this macro the other night on Patchwerk and actually found it was causing Judgement to bug out at a significantly higher rate for me. Nearly all my casts still did damage but returned no mana, causing me to be OOM for nearly half the fight, resulting in an abysmal 2000 dps (as opposed to nearly 3500 the previous week, with worse gear). I switched back to non-macroed judgements after Patchwerk and it worked about as well as before.
I have heard a lot of people sing the praises of this macro though, so there must be something behind it. I'm going to test out a couple more off-the-wall macro ideas I've had over the next week and post again if I get any positive results from them. If anyone has any other suggestions for macros though, please post or PM me and I'd love to give them a try.

If that is a cause, it isn't the only cause. I have seen the judgement bug when I am the only paladin present (ie soloing or leveling with friends). It has happened to me both when judging on a mob I have previously judged and also when I am switching to a new mob to judge it. I haven't been able to find a pattern, and while soloing it does not happen that often. But it does still happen.

What I experience is just as others describe: judgement goes on cooldown, but no damage is done and no debuffs are applied.

My best current theory for how to avoid it is to pause momentarily prior to using judgement. If I pause first and look for it, it is nearly always applied properly; it seems like the problem comes when I chain cast it after something else. Anecdote isn't evidence, however, so I don't know for sure that this is a contributing factor.

I, too, have been having non-consistent issues with the bug. Two nights ago on Patchwerk (25 man) my first judgement landed with no issues, but my next 3 IN A ROW did the usual CD initiated with no damage/replenishment/refreshing of the debuff. Needless to say I was at 20% mana within 45 seconds and was forced to severely drop DPS for mana recovery. However, for the next hour or so I never had the judgement bug again. This hour included other bosses and trash of the single target and multitarget variety.

I am wondering if there is some validity to what was brought up a few weeks ago that spamming the judgement button before it's off CD causes the bug. I can't really confirm this with hard evidence, but I beginning to be inclined to believe it. Anyone else leaning towards that side of the cause as well?

Great advice, but here's what I want to see. Something that quickly shows me the worth of gear when +hit and/or +expertise is not factored on the piece. Frankly, I'm over hit cap, and have been over hit cap since i started 10 mans. Hit is all over the place on gear now. The hardest thing for me right now isn't figuring out what piece to get next, it's figuring out how to most effectively drop hit from my gear. Do I swap my Staggering Legplates for Legplates of Bloody Reprisal? Do I go for T7.5 legs over shoulders? Should I get a new cloak that doesn't have hit?

All these mods, and spreadsheets are great (redcape, your SS would be so much more useful if, like Cheeky's hunter spreadsheet, it had actual gear in it) for telling me that a certain +hit piece of gear is amazing, but at this point I need to factor OUT the hit on the gear, because I've gotta start dropping it soon. I'm 10 badges away from T7.5 shoulders, and they've got hit on them as well. It'll put me around 350 hit when it's said and done. That's a lot of wasted itemization. How best do I go about figuring out what piece is the best replacement?

Just to add onto the ghost hit theory:

I run with 7-8% hit and I did not miss at all on Malygos last night.

Here is a theory, which I can test tonight (or someone else can test earlier): What if there is a bug with Improved Judgements such that if you judge after 8 seconds but before 10 seconds you cause the bug? The theory would be that Improved Judgements properly changes the displayed cooldown, allowing you to activate the ability again after 8 seconds, but the coding is done incorrectly somehow such that if 10 seconds haven't actually passed then the judgement just goes back on cooldown without going off.

This, of course, is a pretty crude theory, but it should at least be easily testable.

Ok now seriously. Have people been reading the whole thread? I brought up the gear selection idea very very early in this thread. People have been putting their views forward on perfect gear. Posting here asking if x is better than y is completely useless. It is OVERALL from total gear slots what is better. When upgrading slots you may need to regem, or possibly be over the hit cap.

If you read the whole thread there are at least 3 sets of gear people are after. Personally, im going with Hylo.