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Old 12/03/08, 11:00 AM   #46
Rasputin
King Hippo
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Magtheridon
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Smite spam >> Wands, and mana isn't an issue there for healers .
I just use Command there so healers don't need to worry about healing non-tanks.


Another time Blood can kill you is on Gluth when he knocks everyone's health down. Easily countered by running away a little before the Decimate so a SoB hit doesn't kill you.
An SoB hit should never kill you on Gluth with raid buffs. I sit close to 27k HP raid buffed, and SoB also only hits you for 10% of its damage, not 33% like JoB. For a SoB to kill me it would need to hit me for 2700, which means the hit itself would need to be 27,000, which clearly does not happen.

However, it is a good idea to hold off on JoBs around the time of Decimate, since those can and do easily kill you, needing to hit me in this example for 2700, which translates into a mere 8100, easily attainable.

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Old 12/03/08, 11:25 AM   #47
Dragonspear
Von Kaiser
 
Dragonspear's Avatar
 
Human Paladin
 
Gorgonnash
Originally Posted by Dugarax View Post
Also, you stated that Art of War instant FoL doesn't reset our swing timer. I have found this to be false. After getting AoW to proc, I looked at my swing timer (using Quartz) and casted FoL in the middle of my swing. the swing time still continued, but my swing was still delayed as if it reset. For the delay between my swing timer's anticipated swing and the actual swing of my character, my swing timer bar just disappeared and reappeared for the next swing. It was also not a "lagging" swing, so I did not get two hits off on the next swing.

Would appreciate if anyone could comment/test/discuss on these two "issues".
I tested this with quartz as well spending some time on a dummy. Anytime I hit myself with AoW (I was using Martyr so I forced myself to heal) it would complete the swing timer on quartz but my character would not actually swing.

Now one question I have for you Dugarax is, do you have auto self cast? Just asking because I do as well and I wanna see if someone who doesn't have auto self cast activated in the blizzard options has the same problem.

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Old 12/03/08, 11:48 AM   #48
sio
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Garona
I recently read somewhere on these forums that people were seeing ghosted judgements. In other words when they went to judge a mob/boss the mana would be taken (but not returned), the boss would take no dmg from the judgement, and its effect would not be refreshed. Included in the thread was a blue post saying this was being looked into, but it was pre-Wrath, shortly after 3.0 so I assumed this had been fixed as it is/was an enormous bug for ret DPS.

However, since reading that thread, I am noticing this QUITE often, and I have to wonder how much DPS I'm losing to it. I've even checked my combat log on occasion to the same ends. Not only is it a DPS reduction, but the hit we take to mana regen if/when this happens is staggering. Has anyone else seen this? Does anyone have any new info on it? I've checked the remnants of the pally forums, but there is no mention of it.


sio

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Old 12/03/08, 11:49 AM   #49
Dugarax
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Archimonde
Originally Posted by Dragonspear View Post
I tested this with quartz as well spending some time on a dummy. Anytime I hit myself with AoW (I was using Martyr so I forced myself to heal) it would complete the swing timer on quartz but my character would not actually swing.

Now one question I have for you Dugarax is, do you have auto self cast? Just asking because I do as well and I wanna see if someone who doesn't have auto self cast activated in the blizzard options has the same problem.
Yes I have auto self cast activated. I would test it without it, but I don't have the time right now

But I guess it would reset your swing as well because you would have to target yourself, which makes you stop attacking the mob, unless you use self cast key (alt).

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Old 12/03/08, 11:50 AM   #50
Saltycracker
Don Flamenco
 
Draenei Monk
 
Whisperwind
I haven't specced Ret since I hit 80 but in terms of dual specs I'm planning on making it my offspec. How is the PVE mana situation at 80 say in heroics or Naxx? If you spam all your abilities including Conc, Exor etc are we still going oom by the end of the fight?

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Old 12/03/08, 11:51 AM   #51
sio
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Garona
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
I haven't specced Ret since I hit 80 but in terms of dual specs I'm planning on making it my offspec. How is the PVE mana situation at 80 say in heroics or Naxx? If you spam all your abilities including Conc, Exor etc are we still going oom by the end of the fight?
Meh, not usually -- gotta stay on top of Divine Plea

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Old 12/03/08, 12:00 PM   #52
 frmorrison
Protector
 
frmorrison's Avatar
 
Ashstrike
Human Paladin
 
No WoW Account
AoW still resets the swing timer and Quartz swing timer is not 100% accurate.


Here is information to add on Profession Benefits:

BS: 101 AP (extra 2x20 str sockets)
JC: 86 AP (3x27 str gems vs 3x20 str gems + no need for blue gem for meta, so extra 10 str)
LW: 64 AP (Bracer enchant)
Enchanting: 64 AP (2x ring enchants)
Inscription: 64 AP (Shoulder enchant + no need to do Sons dailies for a month)
Alchemy: 64 AP (Using 180 AP Flask + 2 more hours on flasks)
Skinning: 25 Crit Rating
Herbalism: Ability to use Fire Seeds as a consumable
Tailoring has melee proc on the cloak at the expense of 22 agility

Since 20 str gems are not available yet, JC benefit is slightly stronger now (27 str vs 16 str).

Last edited by frmorrison : 12/04/08 at 12:59 AM.

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Old 12/03/08, 12:06 PM   #53
Saltycracker
Don Flamenco
 
Draenei Monk
 
Whisperwind
Originally Posted by sio View Post
Meh, not usually -- gotta stay on top of Divine Plea
Divine plea is a godsend even as prot especially in heroics. It probably cuts 10 minutes off the heroic time because you dont have to drink between trash pulls.

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Old 12/03/08, 12:11 PM   #54
Bigshow
Glass Joe
 
Orc Hunter
 
Vek'nilash (EU)
Got some maybe noob questions... Are the attackes Crusader strike and Divine Storm normalized ? And what speed is used for normalization ?

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Old 12/03/08, 12:29 PM   #55
Jourgenson
Glass Joe
 
Jourgenson's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Draenor
Originally Posted by Bigshow View Post
Got some maybe noob questions... Are the attackes Crusader strike and Divine Storm normalized ? And what speed is used for normalization ?
Yes, normalized to 3.3.

I've been thinking about the ghost hit, and it may be a "selfless raid buffer" bonus tied to one of our talents and not mentioned in the tooltip. Could be part of Sanctified/Swift Retribution. I may test this when I get home.

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Old 12/03/08, 12:41 PM   #56
Dragonspear
Von Kaiser
 
Dragonspear's Avatar
 
Human Paladin
 
Gorgonnash
Originally Posted by Dugarax View Post
Yes I have auto self cast activated. I would test it without it, but I don't have the time right now

But I guess it would reset your swing as well because you would have to target yourself, which makes you stop attacking the mob, unless you use self cast key (alt).
What if we make it a mouseover or a macro?

Then again, maybe the problem with it is just that. The fact tat although we have many shortcuts to skip the targetting of ourselves, for the sake of the spell it still has to target us anyway whether or not we are in the target screen. Thus the hostile->friendly->hostile target change interrupts said swing timer. Nvm....they worked out the kinks with shamans Maelstrom weapon so that it wouldn't interupt their swing timer so I guess that is not the case.

As far as the ghost judgements, I have had them too, in fact it seems to be happening more often recently. People report a difference (although it still happens) when you alternate judgements. It is getting frustrating though ><

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Old 12/03/08, 1:05 PM   #57
 frmorrison
Protector
 
frmorrison's Avatar
 
Ashstrike
Human Paladin
 
No WoW Account
A mouseover macro will not help swinging with AoW.


Normal instant casts heals, like Holy Shock on yourself, does not affect the swing timer. This is the way it has been since Classic.

Casted Heals made instant, like AoW or IoL Flash of Light or Shaman's NS + Healing Wave still affect the swing timer. Again, this has been the way since Classic.


However, in 3.0 the devs specially hard coded certain spells to not affect the swing timer, like Slam, Steady Shot, and Maelstrom nature spells.


Unless Ret PvP turns into a weak PvP spec, certain spells will have downsides, like AoW Flash and non-scaling for Ret Sacred Shield.

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Old 12/03/08, 1:12 PM   #58
Dragonspear
Von Kaiser
 
Dragonspear's Avatar
 
Human Paladin
 
Gorgonnash
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
A mouseover macro will not help swinging with AoW.


Normal instant casts heals, like Holy Shock on yourself, does not affect the swing timer. This is the way it has been since Classic.

Casted Heals made instant, like AoW or IoL Flash of Light or Shaman's NS + Healing Wave still affect the swing timer. Again, this has been the way since Classic.


However, in 3.0 the devs specially hard coded certain spells to not affect the swing timer, like Slam, Steady Shot, and Maelstrom nature spells.


Unless Ret PvP turns into a weak PvP spec, certain spells will have downsides, like AoW Flash and non-scaling for Ret Sacred Shield.
TY for your response, I have played for awhile but it was only towards the end of TBC that I even started to look closely into theorycraft. With the release of the expansion I have made it my mission to get as involved into it as I can.

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Old 12/03/08, 1:48 PM   #59
Arikah
pokazhet lik sveta istina
 
Arikah's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Mal'Ganis
Are we sure that AoW heals still trigger a swing reset? At the end of beta they did not, though I'll admit I haven't really bothered to look or test it on live. A combat log of a full swing cycle+AoW would be most helpful here (be sure to include the weapon speed on your char sheet)

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Old 12/03/08, 1:58 PM   #60
Azu
Glass Joe
 
Azu's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
The Forgotten Coast
Originally Posted by Saltycracker View Post
I haven't specced Ret since I hit 80 but in terms of dual specs I'm planning on making it my offspec. How is the PVE mana situation at 80 say in heroics or Naxx? If you spam all your abilities including Conc, Exor etc are we still going oom by the end of the fight?
Actually, I've been having a hard time keeping my mana up on longer fights, less so in heroics, more so in 10 and 25 mans. On a few fights, I've had to switch to SoW for 20-30 seconds just to get my mana back up to effective levels until Divine Plea or Arcane Torrent are off cooldown. This goes in addition to burning a Runic Mana Potion.

I use Seal of Blood for PvE raiding and the FCFS rotation prioritizing JoW. I also have Exorcism and Consecration thrown into the mix. I've been told that if I stop consecrating, I won't have any mana issues. However, I feel that I'm struggling to keep up on the DPS charts as it is on certain encounters where SA keeps my mana high and I can't afford to remove it from the rotation.

It could be a problem with my glyphs? I haven't touched them since 3.0 came out pre-WOTLK except to add the one at 80.

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