Gevlin

@Banka

with that rotation you posted, you could just as easily use a Judge->Conc->CS->DS opener to get the same amount of dps(possibly more, as you'll get the libram crit bonus on your next Judgement), like exemplar had suggested earlier, correct? As you'll still get 2xConc and 2xDS in that 21s since they have the same length CD (glyphed).

If you're correct that this is the optimal use of CDs, then we could cast sequence this and use Exorcism/HW when they are available.

 

SpAceAcE

I and other paladins I raid with noticed a substantial drop in DPS over the last 2 days, I have also noticed (or atleast I think I did) that my judgement hits were not always showing up in SCT though I didn't think anything of it till I read the most recent posts here. If this is true it would explain alot of what I have been experiencing. Naxx was surprisingly lag free when I experienced this and my frame rates are solid so I can only assume that some sort of ability clash seems likely, either with master poisoner as suggested or perhaps with other ret paladins in the raid, of those of you who have experienced this were you raiding with another ret pally/a rogue with master poisoner?

 

Seteh

most likely blizzard didn't think things through. what's probably happening is that judges are not overriding other judgements. and since Vengeance seems to affect judgement (+% holy dmg). so instead of getting "there's a more powerful spell..."-error. it simply doesn't apply.

this would explain why sometimes it does show for you (you have a higher Vengeance stack; so your judgement is more powerful).


most likely the culprit is in the WG-hotfix that was done : /

 

Kaprina

The standard FCFS priorty system results in the same number of attacks over a 21 second period. It's advantage is that it doesnt clip the second consecration as much as your rotation, and it has 3 available GCDs.

Your post did motivate me to actually sit down and chart out a priority system using CS>J>Cons>DS (been wanting to do that since I got my 4pc, but was hoping somebody else would lol). It starts over at about 31 seconds. In that time you get one more CS and the same number of everything else. I'm really not sure how that could possibly result in a loss of dps. (Unless you arbitrarily set the end time of the dps window to be within the 3 seconds judgment loses, but that would be a rather artificial manipulation)

Re: cons vs ds. With numbers taken from my last patchwerk, which is an admitedly small data set, my DS averaged 550 dps (accounting for seal procs and RV damage) Assuming a 10% miss rate on consecrate, which seems quite high, it still did 556 dps. The other consideration is consecration clipping though. You can sneak in DS at the last second and still get your full bang for your buck. But if the mob dies midway through cons, its losing damage...

 

• Avitus

Here's what this boils down to: Yes, with the T7 4-set you will end up in a situation where you're Judgement and CS clash every time if you use J > CS.

So instead of blindly using the normal clash resolution: Judgement > CS > DS > Consecration > Exorcism > Holy Wrath

You add any random ability between Judgement and CS whenever they're both out of cooldown.

Meaning your starting attacks (with 7 second judgements) would be: Judgement -> DS -> CS -> Consecration... and then continue with the normal clash resolution until J/CS line up again, at which point you use J -> *something* -> CS and continue.

This way you avoid the very predictable repeated clash of Judgement and CS every ~7 seconds.

(Clarification: *something* being any ability you have out of cooldown out of DS > Consecration)




On a side note:
While I appreciate that you're trying to write an extensive post, there's a point where it simply becomes too much (and that's saying something, coming from me as I have that habit too). Please try to boil down your thoughts more even if it takes going over your post again and rewriting parts before you post it.

If all else fails, formatting (bold, underline, headlines, paragraphs) is your friend.

 

Banka

Yup. Consecrate and Divine storm are entirely interchangeable due to them having the same cooldown.
Just prio the one you feel has a higher damage per application

The reason crusader strike is delayed like it is in this rotation is not directly related to the J>CS clashes.
It has more to do with the realisation that you will get a 7 sec CS so long as you prio judgement, which means your rotation should (unless ofc there is a better rotation) aim to elminiate/lessen the clashing between your other abilites and judgement.

The result is however exactly the same, so I guess it doesn't matter WHY

Namely: prioritising CS over DS after the first judgement results in a postponement of the third judgement by 0.5+ secs, while prioritising CS over consecrate after the third judgement results in consecrate posptoning the second judgement in the following cycle by 0-5+ secs.

Both of these clashes result in NO SIDE BENEFIT. They will not let you use any abilities more often, nor will they free up any global cooldowns.

So basically prioritising CS at all times results in a 22 second rotation with exactly the same ammount of abilities landing as in the 21 sec one

Again, I am really sorry for the clutter. Guess I was just trying to say several things at once and got a bit caught up in it all

 

• Avitus

If you have 4-set and you use J->CS every time, you'll delay CS every 7 seconds.

If you fit in a DS between those two, your cooldowns will separate and you don't have those clashes. It's a win in the long run.

 

Kaprina

Delaying CS is only relevant if it reduces the number of CS casts during the span of the entire cycle (21.5 sec for the standard). Intuitively, it seems like it obviously should, but on paper it doesn't appear to. Using the standard FCFS priorties nets-- 3xJudge, 3xCS, 2xDS, 1.8xCons. Doing as you suggest, sticking in a DS in between Judge and CS, nets the same except it reduces consecration uptime to 1.2.

Prioritizing CS nets one extra CS at the cost of a tick of consecration. (Obviously the very first attack in a given fight should be judgment since it has a longer range than CS. There's no reason not to cast it as you engage. And you want that buff up there. But at the first collision, going CS> Judgment should be more overall dps)

Unless I've totally screwed up all these charts I've just made, which is entirely possible...

I think the fact that all these different systems output virtually the same number of attacks over a given period of time fairly well illustrates the 'drunken monkey' syndrome ret is currently suffering-- as long as you mash something on cooldown, you're probably not too far off the optimal. (and there's really not terribly many fights in the game that let you maintain the optimal button mash sequence anyway)

 

• Avitus

This is exactly where blind theorycrafting does not apply and you have to look at practical applications. You can't argue about fractional loss/gain of casts, because in practice, even with minimal latency or if you miss a beat at any point of a fight (human error/reaction speed/movement) all such arguments are void.


Additionally, you can't model things around 21 seconds with fractional casts, this is something people frequently come up with but it's simply not realistic given the above conditions. You have to stop counting what you get in those 21 seconds and look at a full fight duration.
Run a real 6 minute fight (or even try to model it if you have the time) and you'll understand what I mean.

Over the course of a fight, delaying CS on every single cast due to 7 sec Judgement -> CS cooldowns is a much bigger DPS loss compared to prioritizing DS (or Consecration) over CS once every half dozen Judgements whenever Judgement and CS cooldowns line up.

 

Thelgar

Hi all,

interesting read about the 4-piece bonus rotations.

In our normal FCFS rotations, it has been proven that every gap of not doing something (eg waiting that 0.5s for judgement to be up) will result in a drop in dps. So we should be mashing any ability that is up rather than waiting.

However in the rotation that was posted by Banka,

Judge 1
DS
CS
consecrate
1 sec wait time
Judge 2
GCD 1 (most likely you will want to put exorcism here vs undead/demons)
CS
DS
1 sec wait time
Judge 3
consecrate
CS
GCD 2 (which is where you will end up alternating the other abilities)
1 sec wait time

There are many 1sec wait times. Wouldn't it be better to just simply slot an ability in these 1 sec slots and push the entire rotation 0.5s behind but gaining another dps ability? Or is the damage advantage of judgements really so great that it is worth doing absolutely nothing for all those precious seconds just to cast judgements on time every 7s?

Or would Avitus' method be better, i.e. simply making sure you cast judgement, then something, then CS, then its FCFS until Judgement is up again, then something, then CS, rinse and repeat? I would assume that during the FCFS portion, you would be using any ability that is up and NOT delay casting abilities to wait for the next judgement.

(and while we are talking about Avitus' method, can i ask what if there is no other ability on CD that you can use in between your judgements and CS? i.e. you judge, then there's no ability available other than CS. Do we still then CS immediately, or shd we wait and delay? If we CS immediately, would we have the resultant clash in future cycles of the rotation, or do we simply just try to insert another ability between judgement and CS on the next cycle again?)

Which one is better? Sry but i'm not as well versed in the exact maths of calculating damage of each and every ability to figure out and compare the dps between the 2 methods of play.

 

Kaprina

Your argument re the delay of CS is void for precisely the same reason, and that was sorta my point. All this theorycrafting is academic and largely irrelevant given the way ret currently works. As long as you aren't letting the seconds tick by with unused globals, your dps should be within the expected range due to latency, rng, etc.

Modeling with a 21 second rotation is valuable in so far as it shows the optimal cycle. If the optimal is losing casts, then certainly the practical application will lose even more, given all the reasons you cited.

 

Svetozar

I find it much harder with this rotation to fit in Exorcism and HW (without delaying any of the 4 primary dps abilities).

 

Thelgar

But since the 4 primary abilities usually gives higher dps anyway, its not of any loss right?

Just like how whenever a boss is less than 20%, with the inclusion of HoW into the rotation, lesser abilities like HW and exorcism will be left out sometimes, but you will still net higher dps because HoW hits much harder.

With 4-pc bonus, the increased frequency of judgement more than makes up for lack of exorcism or HW barring special circumstances.

However, my concern was, as stated in my previous post, do we now stick to a formal "rotation" with the 4-pc bonus, or do we still use FCFS but seperate judge from CS? The formal rotation seems to have too much gaps when we are not doing anything at all, just so to try to cast judgement everytime it is up. Wouldn't this be counter-productive? I can't do the math, but wouldn't sticking with FCFS be better? The shorter CD on judgement will still mean we can mash it more often over any time period while still sticking to FCFS, no?

Argh... i'm confused..

 

• Avitus

I'm not sure you're getting my point. When I say there are factors (lag, human error, fight mechanics such as movement) that debunk some very specific "blind" theorycraft (read: unrealistic), then I'm not at the same time saying that the sum of all theorycraft is useless and suffers from the same problem, you're mistaken here.

Up to a certain level of abstraction you can theorize and create perfectly useful and applicable rules of thumb, basically the rules that dictate the majority of what our playstyle is based upon. Once you specify deeper past that level of abstraction, then you're just speaking unrealistic nonsense.


Example:

A constant delay on CS, every single cast is a "predictable" penalty. It's not wild theorycrafting. It is quantifiable, if you go and hit something for 1 minute using J->CS (with 4-set) you'll know exactly what I mean.

However, building a magical cycle that fits perfectly on paper to guarantee some sort of reduced clash bonus falls apart the second any "realistic" conditions come into play (again: lag, human error, fight mechanics).



Again, map out a cycle like that for 6 minutes and I'll show you that it's pointlessly complicated compared to FCFS and provides identical results (only if it works out perfectly, in all other cases it's a loss).

Now what's easier to maintain: FCFS or a 21.5 second long rotation with arbitrary waiting in between? Especially since it provides no benefit over FCFS in return.

This is really starting to sound like re-inventing the wheel, only this time it has a bunch of strings attached.


It's not a rotation, it's first come first serve. By definition it implies putting in as many casts of abilities as possible in order to net an overall benefit.

Any actual rotations with "wait artificial time" that allows you to fit in Exorcism/HW easier simply means you're doing less Exorcism/HW casts overall, which results in a loss that outweighs occasional, partial (<GCD) losses to primary abilities.


You answered your own question. Really it's not that complicated, FCFS is always the over ruling guideline, waiting with a cooldown available is never advised.

 

Svetozar

What I meant was that it seem with "J > something > CS" the 4 abilities have like 0.5-1 between them, which is not enough to squeeze in an Ex or HW without risking delaying J or any higher dps abilities.

While with J > C > DS > Cons there seems to be a nice 1.5-2sec window (when the 4 abilities are on cd) that shows up regularly. My feeling is that because the J>C>DS often are used back to back without any .5 sec gaps.

But again, this is my perception

 

Josen

I have a question for you guys about dps gain. It's Hit Vs Str when not hit capped. (Gem/Enchanting)

I have 170 to hit from gear. Would I get more dps from stacking Str and not being hit capped or would Hit give more dps gain till capped? What is the math behind this? I know 1 Str = 2.3 AP and 32.8 rating gives you 1% hit so for stacking Str wins hands down but will not being hit capped make a difference? If so how big of a difference is there?

Edit: while I am here WTF is with the Haste on the T7 gear? Will Haste effect the GCD and make instant cast faster?

 

Banka

Revisiting the 21 sec rotation. The 1 sec wait times are there on purpose.
Putting abilities here results in delaying the upcoming judgement and thereby increasing the duration of the cycle.

There are already 2 places within the cycle where you can put other abilities.
1 after your second judgement and 1 at the end of the cycle after the last crusader strike

The cycle does not account for hammer of wrath.
This is a strong enough ability with a short enough cooldown that extending the cycle definitely provides a substantial boost in DPS

Since there is some confusion: here's what you actually get from a DPS ability point of view.
Every 21 second cycle: 3 judgements, 3 crusader strikes, 2 divine storms, 2 consecrates, 1 exorcism
Every 2 cycles you also get a holy wrath cast in

Every cycle is the same apart from what ability you use at the global cooldown spot at the end of the cycle (you have holy wrath, divine plea and resealing to choose from, pretty much)

Attempting to squeese more exorcisms or holy wraths in will result in postponing the entire cycle.
These 2 abilities just don't do enough damage on their own to motivate such a choice

Ideally this should net you a small benefit over FCFS due to avoiding judgement pushbacks and the like.
The difference however, will not make or break your class, so if you feel that the rotation is not for you: just don't use it



Long break in the post to separate 2 different points

On to the venture co. libram of retribution.
With 2 casts per 21 seconds of divine storm this nets 16/21 seconds uptime (or just a bit over 3/4)

From the positioning of the divine storms in the rotation the crit rating bonus ends up applying to the first and third crusader strike aswell as the second and third judgement.

Now here's where we get into master class: the first divine storm is cast at 1.5 secs into the rotation, which means the crit bonus lasts until 9.5 secs into the rotation.
at the 8.5 sec mark I've recommended casting exorcism (which means exorcism would get the crit bonus), HOWEVER crusader strike becomes available at the 9 second mark, so if you should wish you can opt to always put the crusader strike here instead and cast exorcism right after.

Doing this will postpone the upcoming divine storm slightly, but not to the extent where it will cause pushback on your upcoming judgement (which means your rotation will still be a friendly 21 seconds)

Summary:
The 73 crit rating from your libram will be up and affect your melee hits and seals 16 out of the 21 seconds of the cycle, which is quite close to max.
The bonus will also be applied to 2/3 judgements, 2/3 crusader strikes and 1/1 exorcism OR 2/3 judgements, 3/3 crusader strikes 0/1 exorcisms depending on how you choose to place your abilities

 

• Arikah

Always gem str, and no haste does not affect instant gcd's... does anyone even read the OP anymore?

People asking for rotations when it's been made clear that FCFS is the winner: avitus and many others posted all possible results of any rotations, including the 4pc bonus, within the original beta thread. There are literally a dozen pages or more of theorycrafting in there, if you'd like to sift thru the old monster thread it is also linked in the OP. FCFS is what it is, regardless of any gearing changes or current set bonuses - you mash whatever buttan is up, and should multiple skills be off cooldown, you hit whatever causes the biggest number (judgement) first.

If you are experiencing the judgement bug again we will need some recount or wws support to go along with your anecdotal evidence... please be sure to get either of these when reporting possible bugs; also note what boss(es) it was on, since patchwerk slime causing JotW to freak out is an (unofficially) known issue, and may not be the actual judgement bug.

 

Picu

Sorry for the intrusion, i'm just gonna post a quick question if anyone is kind enough to answer.
How is Battleshourt affecting BoM? Did they change it, or does it still get overwritten?

 

Blazeflack

They buffed BoM so that it now grants the same amount of AP. BoM shouldn't get overwritten again, unless perhaps it's a talented Battleshout vs. untalented BoM.

Edit: what really would be nice is being able to have both buffs up at the same time, while only the strongest is effective. In case that one falls off (30 min pala buff -> pala leaving group, battleshout only being 2-3 mins long) the next buff would kick in.

 

Nisall

BS will not overwrite BoM, unless BS is improved and BoM isn't

 

Picu

Thank you.

 

Banka

No point to me posting this as it's already covered 100% by the first post in the thread

 

Kaprina

The 'penalty' you refer to is illusory. That's precisely my point. I'm a big hands-on kinda guy, so I'll take you up on that challenge. (I did this some time ago, but I just went back to the dummy and did it again.)

After Several 1 min tests:
J-CS-Cons-DS = 8 J, 8 CS, 5 DS.
J-DS-CS-Cons = 8 J, 8 CS, 5 DS (But fewer ticks of cons).

There is no big win in the long run as you suggested earlier. Sticking a random ability in between J and CS basically means CS gets delayed for a couple globals every-other judgment cycle instead of one second each cycle.

Using CS-J-Cons-DS, on the other hand, results in 8 J, 10 CS, 5 DS, and the same ticks of cons as with the standard priority system.

And what magical cycle are you talking about? All I did was map out the typical FCFS system, one with your suggestion, and one using CS first. How is 'use CS before J' any more 'magical' than your suggestion of 'Use DS between J and CS?'

I guess you're referring to Banka's rotation, which had been dismissed before your first post on the subject. But maping out 6 minutes worth of a cycle that repeats every 21 seconds seems rather pointless in any event...

 

Incendii

When you priorize Judgement (This is necessary, because it is the far most dmg spell), it is not possible to cast more CS then judgements(7second J). You can try to think up every possible rotation you want, but this won't change anything, that you cannot cast more CS then Judgements.

Even if you delay CS after judegment, you have the same cooldown clash 7 seconds later.

So it doesn't matter when you cast CS after your judgement. it is only interesting to decide when to cast CS if you have the Gladiator libram.