I've seen it on multiple fights. Unlike the first bug, I've seen Judgments vanish while solo. I first noticed the numbers disappearing when we had Kel'Thuzad engaged.

I'll have a look for the parse.

K. Let's play around a little with the 4-part versus best in slot again just to have it over and done with

All the super duper WWS parses for paladin patchwerk damage fall into one of 2 categories

1) parse such as yours where the DPS time (2 min 28 secs) falls perfectly into a situation where you gain the highest possible benefit from avenging wrath

2) parse where the DPS time is so short (around the 2 min margin) that bloodlust uptime is absurdly high

I've seen a few other parses with paladins reaching 5.7k or near 5.8k DPS, and thus far they've fallen into one of the 2
On a side note: You're the only paladin I've seen to break 5.7k without the 4-part bonus.
You also have a gear advantage over the 5.7k crew, atleast from the gear that I saw from when said numbers were achieved

Regardless. A 2 min-ish fight is highly subject to random behaviour. Your sample of abilities is simply too small to draw any conclusions from (as illustrated by the fact that all but 1 of your judgements was a critical hit), also the mana return benefits of 4-part T7 becomes pointless due to the fight being so short that you won't have any mana issues


Now on to the tralalaaa of 4-part versus best in slot
Precisely quantifying the benefit of having 4-part bonus is pretty darn hard.

While you GAIN judgement damage due to having a shorter cooldown (and actually also less clashes, so the difference here is generally more than 1 second, atleast on my pen and paper modelling) you also LOSE crusader strike damage (going from around 6.2-ish seconds per crusader strike to pretty much exactly 7 seconds)

However, you GAIN more judgements than you LOSE crusader strikes. Also judgement does more than twice the average damage of crusader strike. And here's where it becomes hard to quantify.
Exactly how many judgements do you gain effectively once you've removed significantly enough of the judgement damage increase to compensate for the loss of crusader strike?
the 12.5% estimate might be a bit off here. Maybe it's even lower than 10%?

HOWEVER. There is another estimate to take into account: judgement damage (especially since the change to RV with 3.0.8) accounts for MORE than 25% of your overall damage output. You can see it yourself on your own WWS report. Although, once again, WWS is adding self-damage portion to the damage done from seals and judgement (your DPS is legit, though. Only hostile targets are counted here)

Let's say just to humour you that 4part T7 net's an 8% overall increase (after crusader strike is taken into account) to 28% of your damage. This puts the setbonus at an effective 2.24% DPS increase.

Accounting for WWS adding crap to your judgement damage, judgement damage may be counted too high, but then again I'd say that the judgement damage increase portion is over 8%.
Potato, tomato, whatever

Weighting this 2.24% DPS increase versus your best in slot items and gladiator libram, the set bonus is pretty much nullified. Any difference between 4-part and best in slot is

A) hard to quantify due to having to be based on approximations

B) small to the extent where your own favoured playstyle is more important

Discrepancies between individual spreadsheets will most likely be due to point A

The recommendation to go for 4-part still stands. For the best in slot alternative to become competitive you really DO need to have ALL of the best in slot items


Edit: ooooh. Interesting find. There appears to be a 19 second delay between your second and your third judgement, which would imply that a judgement bugged out inbetween those two. My condolences. Wonder what's causing it THIS time around?
In that parse there was only one other paladin ever judging. His first judgement hit over 20 seconds before Bulwyth's second judgment (was the third one that turned up "missing") which means that this judgement could not have affected the bugged one (that I would guess happened over 30 seconds after the holy pala judged).

So whatever is causing this bug, if it's in any way related to judgement clashes, this would seem to suggest that it's not LIMITED to them. Guess we need more logs :/

I have a question about the deadly gladiator gloves.

Now that most people agree that the 4 set bonus is worth to get I've seen most ret paladins not using the head as the last spot for their gear.
While it's obvious that the headpiece is the worst part of the set i was thinking that even so, would it not be better to use the deadly gladiators scaled gloves as the last one? How much of an actual increase the 5% bonus on crusader strike is i don't really know but it should be more than if you used spiked titansteel helm or obsidian greathelm.
I'm probably not the first to speculate on this but i recall all PVE retadins using vengeful/brutal gloves in TBC.

Hope someone has more information on this than me.

The simple answer you may be looking for is that while the gloves bonus may be good, there are some basic class differences between the time the brutal/veng gloves were used and the present. Back then we had only 2 instant attacks above 20%, i.e. crusader strike and judgement. As you may have figured out by now, the damage portion of crusader strike on our overal damage was significantly higher than it is currently.
I don't have any solid numbers to present to you, but let's say that back then it could even be 20% and now it is ~6-9% of the overall damage, making the glove bonus less and less important than it was back then, and stats such as strength and critical strike rating a lot more important.

It is indeed true that crusader strike was a larger portion of our damage before so i wanted to take a look at the stats you would lose comparing with titansteel helm(JC taken into consideration).

If you have spiked titansteel helm(with a 27str gem in it) + valorous pieces and exchange that for valorous headpiece(8str 8crit gem) + deadly scaled gloves(replace the 27str gem here), you would lose:
-12 strength
-58 crit rating
-20 hit rating

Gain:
52 haste rating
5% more damage on crusader strike.

Anyone feel free to speculate from here on. I'm of course wondering if it could be somewhat superior on single targets only.
Sorry if the answer is obvious.

Edit:
If it was the obsidian greathelm it would be a loss of:
-21str
-90 crit rating
-59 epx

Gain:
-52 haste rating
-40 hit
-5% more damage on crusader strike.

I do realize we are looking on pretty "big" stat differences now.

Comparing the valorous gauntlets and the gladiator gauntlets without even taking to account such things as set bonus, the valorous gloves come out on top due to better stat distribution (+5% crusader strike damage included in the PvP gloves damage, which adds up to 20-30 DPS in a raiding situation with really good gear in the other slots. Most likely closer to 20).

Simply put: the PvP gloves are no good for PvE assuming you have acess to basic raiding gear (which you seem to have)
Heck, even back in the day where crusader strike accounted for 20% of your DPS there were still better options than the S4 gloves form PvE

Now if you add the additional bit of breaking a good set bonus, you'll REALLY be shooting yourself in the foot

Leave your head as the open, non-T7.5 piece. Shoot for using [Obsidian Greathelm] as your helm -- you can offset some hit elsewhere. (i.e. cloak, trinket, rings.)

[Betrayer of Humanity] is currently the best weapon in the game -- about 40-60 DPS (pending gear) better than the [The Jawbone] or [Cryptfiend's Bite], which are nearly synonymous in damage.

He didn't misunderstand you, he went one better than your question and stated that, even ignoring set bonuses and anything else, the PvP gloves are strictly inferior to the T7.5 ones. They really have no place in a end game build.

As to your other question... the question has been answered a few times in this thread already and I'd suggest using the "search this forum" option whenever you can or, alternatively, making use of the "paladins: simple questions/simple answers" thread for this type of question. Also, Betrayer is best.

Being a bit nitpicky, but Frosted Androit + 4piece is better than Greathelm + 4piece, assuming the you can comfortably fit the 100~ Hit you gain from it.

Has anyone tested the proc rate on Berserker since the last patch? I did some brief tests on a dummy and confirmed that it still has no ICD and can refresh itself, but uptime doesn't seem very good, certainly not as good as the 35% uptime claimed in the first post.

Its possible that I've just been unlucky, but I've been struggling with the decision for Berseker over Massacre. I tend to prefer an always-active passive buff to a stronger random buff. Especially for quick fights, if Berserking doesn't proc early, it may as well not proc at all.

Ya, that bug was a brutal dps hit as well, it happened while greatness, mirror, and AW were up. However I mainly look at it as balancing out the 2 extra crits (over my expected crit rate in a raid of right around 75%) that I got.

I am not positive on this, however I had never seen the bug again until we had a Mut rogue with master poisoner in the raid. It seems like it is a possibility for causing the bug since normally these issues have to do with debuffs being applied and overwritten. I will keep an eye out, and try to convince a mut rogue to hit the target dummies with me to see if we can reproduce the bug in a more controlled environment.

edit: On the Judgement bug subject, I have spent a little while pouring over the logfile around the time the judgement bug occurred, and one interesting thing popped out to me:
20:37'32.609 Bulwyth Judgement of Wisdom misses Patchwerk.
I have seen this happen on recount, where a judgement miss is not labeled as a Judgement of the Martyr miss, but a JoW miss, which is not picked up by WWS as a judgement miss. It is possible that this is not a bug at all. I would be interested in seeing any parses since 3.0.8 with a JoB/M miss, that is recorded. It is possible that when judgement misses it is recorded as JoW/L missing instead of JoB/M.

If anyone cares to look around at the place in the logfile this happened here it is:
Wow Web Stats

As far as 4-piece you are right and I am prepared to concede the point, best in slot could potentially be equal or slightly better, but they should be so close that fight to fight one could win out over the other. Also the fact that 4-piece + frosted adriot (the best 4-piece set up) is significantly easier to get than 2-piece + best in slot would tell me that in general 4-piece is the way to go.



It is most likely luck, this week I got half as many berserk procs on Patchwerk versus the week before, however on some other fights I got more procs than the week before. It is just the RNG of procs, over a large data set you will see around 35% uptime, however on some fights you will see significantly worse (I had 20% uptime on this week's Patch) and sometimes you will see significantly better (40% the previous week on Patch). Overall it is still better, especially when it lines up with other procs/CDs like DMC:Greatness,Mirror of Truth, and Avenging Wrath.

Plugging my gear into Bellator's Spreadsheet and changing around gearsets frosted adroit came out above Obsidian Greathelm by a significant margin. The major difference is that you gain 98 hit rating, which is desperately needed in an ideal gearset (with the obsidian greathelm +4 piece and all the best in slot pieces elsewhere you only have ~120hit rating).

The ideal offset pieces I mention would be:
[Drape of the Deadly Foe]
[Favor of the Dragon Queen]
[Bracers of Unrelenting Attack]
[Girdle of Razuvious]
[Melancholy Sabatons]
[Surge Needle Ring]
[Ruthlessness]
[Darkmoon Card: Greatness]
[Fury of the Five Flights]

You pretty much summed up what I was going to say before I got lost in the Super Bowl. Anyway, my only alteration here is having [Sabatons of Sudden Reprisal] instead, as they're superior w/ a [Bold Dragon's Eye].

I'm bad at math.

I am actually using the [Sabatons of Sudden Reprisal] right now also for that reason, however I would be better off with melancholy sabatons and the dragon's eye in my [Favor of the Dragon Queen] instead. Would gain ~20 AP with the change, plus a little armor pen (even though it is bad). They are so close that it isn't a massive upgrade, all though it should be a slight one.


edit: Turns out I am bad at math also. You would gain 5.5 AP but lose 12 crit rating, however 84 ArP should be a little better than 43 haste. They are so close that once you get one [Sabatons of Sudden Reprisal] there is no reason to upgrade to melancholy until no one else needs them atleast.

You're right. In the wish-list I compiled I had Grim Toll sitting in one of the trinket slots which de-valuates the Frosted Adroit gloves significantly. But utilizing the T7.5 helm and using the Frosted Adroit gloves, one is able to utilize better trinkets and a neck-piece, offsetting the hit loss, which gives another ~70 DPS. The helm is still a nice piece though, if you're unable to utilize leather items.

Arguing that the Sabatons of Sudden Reprisal are superior to the Melancholy ones because of a gem slot I could buy.

They're not strictly superior with the current +16 str gems however and arguing that they would be with a +27 str gem in ignores that that gem would be somewhere else in your gear in any case. In the particular case of your gear set, activating a similar +4 str or 8 ap bonus on your shoulders or neck.

I'm still showing Obsidian Greathelm + T7.5 gloves + melancholy sabbatons as superior in my set up.

I would like to test some things with Bellator's Spreadsheet and now I have two questions:

1) Does Bellator's Spreadsheet include sunder armor into the calculation? Because it doesn't make sense to weight armor pen very high, when you get a much lower benefit from it in raiding situations.

2) Does Bellator's Spreadsheet include all Raid buffs into the calculation? Because some of them - like AP - are a % of your own stats, which make these stats weight higher in Raid situations.

Edit: Argh ... I found it ... no answer needed to this post.

If you're using a Dragon's Eye to activate an 8AP bonus over the 4 Strength bonus in the Sabatons, then you are not optimally gearing. 4 Strength is worth more.

I'm curious as to why Redcape's spreadsheet would give you those results.

Looking at your profile, in your current gear, you're very high on hit. At this point you would have little (if any) gain going from the [Iron-Spring Jumpers] to [Dawnwalkers]. If anything, I'd suggest removing some hit pieces from your set and grabbing something like [Melancholy Sabatons] or another helm.

Anything over 8% Hit is wasted.

I am currently high on hit because I recently upgraded from [Cloak of Bloodied Waters] to [Cloak of Mastery]. My current wishlist looks like:

[Obsidian Greathelm] + 4xt7.5
[Favor of the Dragon Queen]
[Drape of the Deadly Foe]
[Bracers of Unrelenting Attack]
[Girdle of Razuvious]
[Dawnwalkers]
[Ruthlessness]
[Surge Needle Ring]
[Darkmoon Card: Greatness]
[Bandit's Insignia] / [Mirror of Truth]

Plugging those into Redcape's spreadsheet and then using [Melancholy Sabatons] over [Dawnwalkers] in the test table results in a dps loss of about ~20.

I didn't take the time to change out every piece of gear to the ones you have listed, but just changing the default boot stats to match [Dawnwalkers] and inserting stats for [Melancholy Sabatons] into the test gear section shows me a 32 dps increase by switching to the Sabatons. Double check the stats you entered maybe?

My advice would be to take whichever drops first and save your DKP for Ulduar... The difference isn't that great regardless.

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