The Retribution Paladin Thread (Wrath/3.0) - Page 47

snakzz · 01/14/09, 5:27 PM

I have some questions about dps cycles

The cycle I've been using is /castsequence reset=combat Crusader Strike, Judgement of Wisdom, Divine Storm, Consecration, Crusader Strike, Judgement of Wisdom, Crusader Strike, Divine Storm, Consecration, Judgement of Wisdom, Crusader Strike

Does anyone have any comment to this?
Is this a good rotation?

Svetozar · 01/14/09, 7:15 PM

Is there a way to figure out where we stand compared to other classes on dps meters, GIVEN equal gear and skill.

I looked at different WWS logs, but it is difficult to account for skill, gear and latency. (Can anyboody post their best (and recent) attempts on Pathcwerk?)

Is it that we can compete for the first places on dps meter, or are we stuck with 5-10ish positions?

http://wwsscoreboard.com does not seem to have WoTLK data

Kadrok · 01/14/09, 7:32 PM

Originally Posted by Grimmand

Could the macros be causing any delay in the activation of the relevant abilities?

/startattack macros shouldn't be causing any issues for you. They will definitely increase your damage done on trash, and it's highly recommended to make them for most of your abilities.

Tilted · 01/14/09, 7:35 PM

Originally Posted by Grimmand

Hello all. I have a question..

I started using /startattack macros for Naxx 25 last night, as on some multi-mob packs I was finding I would lose a few seconds of dps uptime here and there when my target died and CS/Judgement were on cooldown (its difficult to right-click target in the midst of blizzard/death and decay/hurricane/etc at times).

So I bound CS, DS and Judgement to simple startattack macros, aka:

/startattack
/cast Crusader Strike

My dps for some reason last night was less than optimal, I dropped from normally 3rd/4th on the meters to 6th or 7th. It could be due to simple bad luck, or not being completely on the ball, but I find it strange that the night that I started using the macros I suffered a dps hit.

Anyone have any ideas? Could the macros be causing any delay in the activation of the relevant abilities?

Macros of this nature shouldn't have any negative bearing on your final damage output, and if anything they should give you a bit of a boost. Did your DPS actually drop, or just your spot on the list? More likely is the fact that people around you are getting upgrades, causing your relative position to drop even though your performance stays the same.

Grimmand · 01/14/09, 7:38 PM

Originally Posted by Tilted

Macros of this nature shouldn't have any negative bearing on your final damage output, and if anything they should give you a bit of a boost. Did your DPS actually drop, or just your spot on the list? More likely is the fact that people around you are getting upgrades, causing your relative position to drop even though your performance stays the same.

It could be one of any number of factors along those lines. I was just looking for confirmation that the macros couldnt have been the cause. Cheers

Another issue could have been trying to overrely on the /startattack macros to target for me. Often I'd hit one of them as my target died, only to be tab-targetted to something behind me or out of melee range. I guess I need to find the sweet spot in between staying aware and hunting down the next target, and using the macros to assist me.

flexbutt · 01/14/09, 7:57 PM

Originally Posted by Svetozar

Is there a way to figure out where we stand compared to other classes on dps meters, GIVEN equal gear and skill.

I looked at different WWS logs, but it is difficult to account for skill, gear and latency. (Can anyboody post their best (and recent) attempts on Pathcwerk?)

Is it that we can compete for the first places on dps meter, or are we stuck with 5-10ish positions?

http://wwsscoreboard.com does not seem to have WoTLK data

What exactly are you trying to gather from this? There's no definitive way to deduce equal skill between most players, and as you said, latency is also a glaring issue, especially on high population servers like my own. I'm just not seeing how this information, even if you got it, would help.

Frmorrisen, I did forget about RV when I mentioned the overall damage of Divine Storm. I imagine it would push my 4-5% closer to about 7-8%, given a crit rate on a boss of about 40%.

Avitus · 01/14/09, 7:59 PM

Originally Posted by Grimmand

Another issue could have been trying to overrely on the /startattack macros to target for me. Often I'd hit one of them as my target died, only to be tab-targetted to something behind me or out of melee range. I guess I need to find the sweet spot in between staying aware and hunting down the next target, and using the macros to assist me.

/startattack macros shouldn't cause any DPS drop and are very much recommended to use.

As you noticed, you do have to watch what is being targeted however and make sure you're actually able to swing at it, the best course of action is to use a mod that clearly colors your abilities when your out of range, I personally use RedRange.

Originally Posted by snakzz

I have some questions about dps cycles

The cycle I've been using is /castsequence reset=combat Crusader Strike, Judgement of Wisdom, Divine Storm, Consecration, Crusader Strike, Judgement of Wisdom, Crusader Strike, Divine Storm, Consecration, Judgement of Wisdom, Crusader Strike

Does anyone have any comment to this?
Is this a good rotation?

It's been mentioned many times before that using such "do it all" castsequence macros are not optimal and not advised. Just use the abilities themselves, possibly add create some /startattack macros for each ability and get a mod to watch your cooldowns (OmniCC).

Grimmand · 01/14/09, 8:02 PM

Originally Posted by Avitus

As you noticed, you do have to watch what is being targeted however and make sure you're actually able to swing at it, the best course of action is to use a mod that clearly colors your abilities when your out of range, I personally use RedRange.

Thank you for that reccomendation Avitus, Ill give RedRange a shot. It should help maintain dps uptime in chaotic AoE-trash situations where I'm running from one quickly-dying mob to the next.

Izichial · 01/14/09, 9:52 PM

Mastering tab targeting and always keeping an eye on your surroundings is most likely the best you can do about trashpacks, not to mention all the other situations it will help you. Especially as a paladin, and extend that to allies as well. HoP the crazy mage, freedom that tank, cleanse that goo off yourself and taunt that big hairy thing with lots of spikes on it eyeing your healer like a starving street dog eyes a less than half eaten dropped hamburger over there. All while filling your screen with sweet numbers.

• frmorrison · 01/14/09, 11:29 PM

Originally Posted by Avitus

/startattack macros shouldn't cause any DPS drop and are very much recommended to use.

The only issue with /startattack is it selects the closest mob to attack (with no target), so that may break CC at times.

Also, all Judgements start up autoattack, but Crusader Strike and Divine Storm do not.

Grimmand · 01/15/09, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

The only issue with /startattack is it selects the closest mob to attack (with no target), so that may break CC at times.

Also, all Judgements start up autoattack, but Crusader Strike and Divine Storm do not.

I'm certain Crusader Strike does as well. The main use for the /startattack macros is for when your current target dies, and CS/Judgement are both on cooldown.

Karakas · 01/15/09, 12:11 AM

Hotkey "Attack Target"? Why would you even need to bother going through the added mess of making a macro for something so simple?

Chmur · 01/15/09, 3:21 AM

Originally Posted by Svetozar

Is there a way to figure out where we stand compared to other classes on dps meters, GIVEN equal gear and skill.

I looked at different WWS logs, but it is difficult to account for skill, gear and latency. (Can anyboody post their best (and recent) attempts on Pathcwerk?)

Is it that we can compete for the first places on dps meter, or are we stuck with 5-10ish positions?

http://wwsscoreboard.com does not seem to have WoTLK data

It's pointless to figure where we stand compared to other classes, cause in the end of the day, it's not class in ideal setting you are competing with, but the player and his connection behind it. I mean, we have 2 dps warriors with equal spec and very similar gear. Yet they tend to end up in 500dps difference bracket.

I personaly weight my own performance not based on charts, but on my feeling of how I did. Numbers will vary from raid to raid, boss to boss. Yes, you can figure rough bracket, but even that will screw you time to time. I am running in bracket 3,5-4,2K dps on non-buff bosses like Loatheb or Thadd.

Regarding Patchwerk, I don't know about rest of community, but I don't like the fight much. I tend to go oom halfway to the fight or sooner if I keep everything possible off cd. This issue is even worse in 10 men.

About best in slot gear:
The main difference in going for 4T7 and offset is that you can freely replace anything in offset, while keeping up same dps standard. If 4T7 gives you huge dps increase, you won't compensate it with replacing one of the items and breaking the -1s bonus. That's the main drawback I see there.

About Berserking:
As on last few pages some people were asking again, let's place a refresh here so they might actually notice it. Berserking is the most superior PvE enchant atm. Even with some estimated proc rate it gives more than Massacre. It has no cooldown, so it can refresh itself. It's RNG enchant though, so you may see it not working time to time, but then chain it for 40 sec straight. And if the armor decrease change is still valid, it's very great enchant. Bear in mind that although now it is pricey, it will get a lot cheaper when people will actually mass shard things.

About Loatheb:
Few pages back I saw someone saying that they can't use SotM on Loatheb cause of the big recoil - don't know about this. I crit there in same numbers you mentioned, but our healers have no problems healing it back in the window, using insta FoL is really rare for me. Only thing that comes to my mind is to use priests fully - weakened soul debuff has 100% uptime on me. And that saves a lot damage in. It's actually the only thing where I beat our tank in damage taken by 1%

Cranmer · 01/15/09, 4:54 AM

Originally Posted by Svetozar

Is there a way to figure out where we stand compared to other classes on dps meters, GIVEN equal gear and skill.

I looked at different WWS logs, but it is difficult to account for skill, gear and latency. (Can anyboody post their best (and recent) attempts on Pathcwerk?)

Is it that we can compete for the first places on dps meter, or are we stuck with 5-10ish positions?

http://wwsscoreboard.com does not seem to have WoTLK data

WWS Loading...

5266 dps on Patch (without the 4set bonus or CS libram and before I picked up Belabored Legs) so only about 100 dps out of the top spot and plenty of room to improve. The top 5 people recorded on the list include a war, 2 hunters, a lock, and me (I ended up 3rd). I'd rank all of us as equal in terms of skill, class knowledge and latency (none of us ever lag), though I would rank the war and top hunter as superior to me in gear at the time this fight was recorded. (The war in particular is almost perfectly geared). The hunter and war can usually best me by a very small margin in an ideal setting with no deaths or heavy movement, but I find I can push it and get close. I also tend to lovingly trash talk in order to 'motivate' them to whip me (and kill the boss faster), so they tend to have max focus on a fight like Patch.

(I think this night I actually said "I have a boat load of whoop ass and I ain't afraid to use it" which prompted the hunter to get his game face on)

For my money, I'd say retri scales very well at this point. Some of the top players in other classes can push well into 5600+ on Patch, but even then, cracking well into 5kdps would never put us at the bottom of the dps charts and would often be (at least) in the top 5. (I see quite a few wws reports where a hunter/rogue, etc gains 5800 dps in the number one spot followed by a huge drop off in dps in spots 2-5 where they do 5300 or so). In general, I'd say that the highest end numbers put out on patch are the work of individuals with extraordinary skill and not an issue of class disparity. Most people with good skill and setup are sitting somewhere around 4800-5000ish if they get the gear they need/want. There are always exceptions to this rule, ofc.

I certainly agree that comparing dps on patch is subject to all kinds of variables that make it hard to judge. No single "dps number" should be the mark that everyone should automatically get. I don't, however, find it pointless to talk about it and post numbers. At the very least it motivates some to work out if there's something they can do better.

lagavulin · 01/15/09, 5:34 AM

Originally Posted by Cranmer

WWS Loading...

5266 dps on Patch (without the 4set bonus or CS libram and before I picked up Belabored Legs) so only about 100 dps out of the top spot and plenty of room to improve. The top 5 people recorded on the list include a war, 2 hunters, a lock, and me (I ended up 3rd). I'd rank all of us as equal in terms of skill, class knowledge and latency (none of us ever lag), though I would rank the war and top hunter as superior to me in gear at the time this fight was recorded. (The war in particular is almost perfectly geared). The hunter and war can usually best me by a very small margin in an ideal setting with no deaths or heavy movement, but I find I can push it and get close. I also tend to lovingly trash talk in order to 'motivate' them to whip me (and kill the boss faster), so they tend to have max focus on a fight like Patch.

(I think this night I actually said "I have a boat load of whoop ass and I ain't afraid to use it" which prompted the hunter to get his game face on)

For my money, I'd say retri scales very well at this point. Some of the top players in other classes can push well into 5600+ on Patch, but even then, cracking well into 5kdps would never put us at the bottom of the dps charts and would often be (at least) in the top 5. (I see quite a few wws reports where a hunter/rogue, etc gains 5800 dps in the number one spot followed by a huge drop off in dps in spots 2-5 where they do 5300 or so). In general, I'd say that the highest end numbers put out on patch are the work of individuals with extraordinary skill and not an issue of class disparity. Most people with good skill and setup are sitting somewhere around 4800-5000ish if they get the gear they need/want. There are always exceptions to this rule, ofc.

I certainly agree that comparing dps on patch is subject to all kinds of variables that make it hard to judge. No single "dps number" should be the mark that everyone should automatically get. I don't, however, find it pointless to talk about it and post numbers. At the very least it motivates some to work out if there's something they can do better.

Looking at your WWS log and comparing it to mine has me rather confused. I understand your increase in damage somewhat as some of your gear is better than mine (weapon by a good amount) and I'm sure my rotation is not as tight as it could be, our shaman usually bloodlust at the beginning of the fight so I don't get the benefit of bl + wings at the last 20%

However, you guys defeated Patchwork almost a minute faster than we did, yet somehow you got ONE MORE melee swing in than I did. How is that possible, considering your weapon is slower (though you do have more haste)

Am I reading these WWS parses wrong? What is the underlying difference?

I have the 4 piece bonus though my gloves are still t7,

Here is my WWS Log of Patch