Whilst in the current Arena climate a 2sec interrupt for Ret may well be overpowered, 3.1 could be a very different kettle of fish. Imp. HoJ's 30sec cooldown reduction will almost certainly be eliminated and without this Ret is somewhat lacking in control abilities. The risk is that the spec would be limited yet again to gimmicky cleave setups, and I'm pretty sure that none of us want that.
It's early days yet. We should probably wait until the PTR is out before we start declaring each morsel of info 'OP' or a 'Slap in the Face'.
I know most of you don't PvP, and this forum has little to do with PvP, but some Blizzard changes (usually) result due to PvE/PvP crossover, so here are some quick initial reactions.
So, if these changes go through, Ret will be (even more) overpowered, and completely dominate arena. 30 yard instant interrupt? Ranged nukes? I know the numbers clearly show Holy is the problem (30% representation on sk100), but a lot of the tools that make Holy paladins strong are base abilities.
While PvP discussion isn't normally allowed, when it affects PvE it is fine. I am into Arena, I have played in all five seasons (with different classes), but not as nearly good as you .
I doubt the ranged interrupt will stay in. Once PTR starts, I will suggest changing the glyph to a cooldown reduction, since giving a 30 yard Earth Shock to Paladins is too powerful. Also, the cooldown would help with PvE damage, since I don't think the CS or HoW mana reduction ones are required anymore.
Also, I will test out Prot on the PTR. It sounds too good to be true, so I will suggest nerfs if it is needed. My guess on HoJ is deep Prot will give 30 second cooldown Hammers.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I'm not sure the reduction in points for Imp HoJ will drop the benefit. It seems at least possible that they intend prot paladins to have a 10s hammer simply for the pve spell interrupt mechanic, similar to warriors and DKs with short cooldown interrupts for tanking. It might have PvP implications, but it doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to bring prot paladin spell interrupts in line without forcing them to take the Exorcism glyph.
I would go as far to say that the community should demand the Vengeance 5-stack buff. I love the change to exorcism but it seems lackluster at best.
Does anyone have any napkin math on how the exorcism change will buff our dps?
Exorcism is about 6% of total DPS. Holy Wrath is about 2% of total DPS. The Bellator's spreadsheet breaks each ability down by % as well to easily get this info at a glance, though I combine RV damage with what procs it rather than tracking separately.
Having Exorcism always available is a great benefit. Losing HW is only a 2% reduction, this is not terribly painful. I seriously doubt Vengeance stacking will change. Plus Exo autocrit in Naxx will be pleasant - that's about 3% free DPS.
If, as theorized, Exo glyph becomes a cooldown reduction (or damage increase like Death and Decay), rather than spell interrupt, it's possible we'll recoup some of that 2%. Honestly, I suspect the autocrit on Demon/Undead will not be baselined and the Glyph will instead perform that function.
Mana usage and SA is out to lunch - I think we've got JoW bugs again, I heard someone state it's multi-stacking again, but if not it's proccing ridiculously frequently. If this is not intended and fixed, SA reduction could hurt. If it's intended, drop in SA could be meaningless.
Sigh - finished modeling? Nope. Now I have to go model with Exo and no HW for Ulduar. Something we'd never have contemplated before now.
We really don't need another glyph like Judgement that is flat out required.
There is nothing OP about a 30 yard 2 second interrupt on a 15 second cooldown. Earth Shock is 20 yards with a third of the cooldown, Strangulate is 50 yards (though it has a cooldown to balance), Deadly Throw when specced is 30 yards, and Counterspell has a slightly longer cooldown but silences for 4 times the duration.
We really don't need another glyph like Judgement that is flat out required.
There is nothing OP about a 30 yard 2 second interrupt on a 15 second cooldown. Earth Shock is 20 yards with a third of the cooldown, Strangulate is 50 yards (though it has a cooldown to balance), Deadly Throw when specced is 30 yards, and Counterspell has a slightly longer cooldown but silences for 4 times the duration.
There isn't a reason ret can't have an interrupt.
A few DPS classes have three glyphs that are required for best dps. Ret only has two.
Strangulate has a 30 yd range, it takes a major to make it 50 yards (some people use it, but I don't think a majority do). Many Rogues don't get 30 yards on Throw. CS only silences if they interrupt a cast or have the Arcane talent for 4 second silence.
Holy Pallies are by far the most popular healer (30% of 2k rating), and if Ret gets Earth shock Holy does too, maybe tipping the balance a bit more towards Holy.
HoJ is Ret's interrupt, although it has a long cooldown and is on the GCD, it works.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I'd be interested in seeing if Left's program could pop out situations where you decide to wait a half second on a specific spell cooldown (Judgement) rather than hit the lesser immediately. Just to prove that in every situation delays are bad - there's a chance one circumstance is better, as proved by long ToT delayed rotation.
Done. Results here. The conventional wisdom was correct in all cases; delaying even 1/2 second for Judgement always caused a small average DPS loss, at least with the damage/ability figures I was using.
I even checked in some non-undead scenarios, and depending on the amount of delay set it was either exactly the same as a rotation where no delay was used or it was a DPS loss. This, I think, is due to the large number of free GCDs when not fighting undead (will theoretically change in 3.1 when Exorcism gets made universally applicable).
Again, pvp discussion is frowned upon but to clear up HoJ in arena's isnt usually used as an interupt but more of a standard 'trick a trink' then stunlock strat. I see the Exo change as verymuch overdue, especially vs. mages/locks or PvE airphase or ground lockout scenarios.
What worries me is that since 3.0 blizz has made rather sweeping 'pendulum-esque' changes to Ret mana regen, so when i see 'We are concerned that SA is providing too much mana return' from a Dev i immediately think great, i can as of now barely sustain a full nuke rotation, which is what makes us competitive dps-wise, undertaking what will most assuredly be a horendous regen cut is going to be crippling.
On a personal side note: What the hell man! Mages and Warlocks get replenishment... im beginning to understand why Ghostcrawler recieves death threats. Honestly, a move like that seems so cheap.
A few DPS classes have three glyphs that are required for best dps. Ret only has two.
Strangulate has a 30 yd range, it takes a major to make it 50 yards (some people use it, but I don't think a majority do). Many Rogues don't get 30 yards on Throw. CS only silences if they interrupt a cast or have the Arcane talent for 4 second silence.
Holy Pallies are by far the most popular healer (30% of 2k rating), and if Ret gets Earth shock Holy does too, maybe tipping the balance a bit more towards Holy.
HoJ is Ret's interrupt, although it has a long cooldown and is on the GCD, it works.
Who cares that other classes have 3 required glyphs. That's boring and it means that unless they make a glyph that increases Judgement by 11% we'll never be able to varry things up. Its bad design.
Deadly Throw always has a 30 yard range. The glyph actually increases to 35, with the talent that increases to 39 yards. CS always interrupts for 8 seconds. The silence is butter on top.
And none of that includes the fact that by taking the Exorcism glyph you're dropping either Turn Undead or HoJ, meaning you are simply sacrificing one type of CC for another.
HoJ is a stun. The interrupt was designed for tanking.
On a personal side note: What the hell man! Mages and Warlocks get replenishment... im beginning to understand why Ghostcrawler recieves death threats. Honestly, a move like that seems so cheap.
Only Frost and Destro gets Replenish, and those are the two lesser represented specs of those classes. It is good more people can give that buff. Ret will still have a raid spot, if only for Blessings, Judgement of X, and 3% damage.
To Toastr:
Turn Evil is too situational to be a good CC and HoJ only gives 5 yards (for 15 yard total), while nice to have I don't see a difference from not having it.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
A nerf to SA based mana regen doesn't have to be so bad.
The problem with the current design is that on fights where you have low incoming raid damage, you will end up in deep mana problems as the fight draws longer.
This is not a big problem with the current PvE content due to the fights being so short, but a 5 minute (or longer) fight with only Seal/judgement self-damage giving SA based mana regen would end up being disastrous for any retribution paladin even with the current implementation
On the other side of the spectrum you have fights with high overall raid damage.
In these situations you instead find yourself permanently at full/near full mana while never even having to consider using divine plea
With a change to SA based mana regen the difference in playstyle between these two situations will become much smaller, allowing the developers to look at other tools for retribution mana regen, namely the personal mana gain from Judgements of the Wise.
I'm not saying it will necessarily play out like that, but hopefully the developers will realize that retribution paladins will need some form of compensation for the mana loss and act accordingly
Naturally, only time will tell what changes actually make it through
Banka hit the nail on the head regarding my concerns on mana. There's already certain fights where I feel I'm struggling to keep up on damage and yet my mana bar is not refilling. (i.e. Patchwerk)
Frankly, I'd happily sacrifice SA to see JotW return 25%-30% mana again. That prevents the infinite mana bar in high raid-damage fights, but also wouldn't cripple us in longer, less AoE damage-heavy fights. At that point, they could use SA as a deeper Prot talent (maybe in conjunction with something like Holy Shield) which ought to remedy the PvP/Holy Paladin concerns.
Also, I can't help but wonder if Consecrate is going to be accepted as "necessary" in our rotations or if Blizzard has another idea to give us increased DPS through another ability. I don't mind spamming it, but if the mana situation stays similar to where they are now, our damage capabilities are certainly going to take a hit. Overall, the changes to Ret have been extremely positive compared to TBC. The increased communication and the seeming interest from Blizzard, in what these boards and community feedback offers, gives me renewed optimism.
Let's hope the comprehensive 3.1 patch notes will continue to expound on the positive changes for the spec.
We really don't need another glyph like Judgement that is flat out required.
There is nothing OP about a 30 yard 2 second interrupt on a 15 second cooldown. Earth Shock is 20 yards with a third of the cooldown, Strangulate is 50 yards (though it has a cooldown to balance), Deadly Throw when specced is 30 yards, and Counterspell has a slightly longer cooldown but silences for 4 times the duration.
There isn't a reason ret can't have an interrupt.
I really don't want to be that guy, but how can you say that with no obvious arena experience?
Paladins in general are already extremely overpowered, and by far the best class. Giving them a ranged interrupt would be like giving s2 druids a machine gun. All your example are less than ideal too. Strangulate is 2 minute cooldown, and is only 50 yards with a glyph no one takes. Deadly throw requires combo points, and therefore isn't usable on anything but a target that got away. (Yeah I know you can shadowdance premed deadly throw, but that's extremely rare and most people are mutilate.) Earth shock is a part of the core abilities of a shaman, and the class has been balanced around it. Exorcism would trump ALL of them.
There's everything wrong with a 30 yard interrupt. It would have to be changed to make it remotely balanced, probably through the glyph.
Idea: Glyph of Exorcism: Your Exorcism interrupts targets for 2 seconds, but it's range is reduced by x (10/15/20?), and damage reduced by y. (50%?)
I noticed that the Dark Runes have been changed froma 2 minute CD to a 15 minute CD last patch. They also share a CD with healthstones, though i'm unsure whether they used to, and whether the HS CD is also set to 15 minutes.
I would assume that Demonic Runes would be the same CD as well.
Still lets you pop a Mana Pot and a Dark Rune in a fight for regen.
Chaith logs on
<zyl> Actually, I do like my paladin. He's fun to play, but don't tell Chaith.
<chaith> Looks like i logged in at the right time
<zyl> ....
<zyl> I pressed enter half a second after you logged on.
I really don't want to be that guy, but how can you say that with no obvious arena experience?
Paladins in general are already extremely overpowered, and by far the best class. Giving them a ranged interrupt would be like giving s2 druids a machine gun. All your example are less than ideal too. Strangulate is 2 minute cooldown, and is only 50 yards with a glyph no one takes. Deadly throw requires combo points, and therefore isn't usable on anything but a target that got away. (Yeah I know you can shadowdance premed deadly throw, but that's extremely rare and most people are mutilate.) Earth shock is a part of the core abilities of a shaman, and the class has been balanced around it. Exorcism would trump ALL of them.
There's everything wrong with a 30 yard interrupt. It would have to be changed to make it remotely balanced, probably through the glyph.
I know most of you don't PvP, and this forum has little to do with PvP, but some Blizzard changes (usually) result due to PvE/PvP crossover, so here are some quick initial reactions.
So, if these changes go through, Ret will be (even more) overpowered, and completely dominate arena. 30 yard instant interrupt? Ranged nukes? I know the numbers clearly show Holy is the problem (30% representation on sk100), but a lot of the tools that make Holy paladins strong are base abilities.
...
So the range on exorcism needs to be reduced, or the glyph should be changed. (No PvE effect)
Seal of Justice should be changed to have an internal cooldown of x seconds. (No PvE effect)
First off: this is the Retribution Paladin Thread. It's for productive discussion and the exchange of ideas to help each other out. This is not the self/class-loathing, insult, and whining thread.
Secondly, I disagree that Ret Paladins are "extremely overpowered" and that Exorcism would trump any other class's interrupt utility. There are other classes that exist with ranged interrupts. Warlocks have Felhunters, Mages have Counterspell, Priests can Silence, Hunters have Silencing Shot: all are considered a ranged interrupt/lock-out and they're on a fairly short cooldown, comparatively. They also generally provide higher damage output in PvP and are "balanced" around their interrupt abilities. Additionally, most other classes have CC effects which act as interrupts, as well as remove a player's ability to control their actions. (i.e. Fear, Polymorph, Blind) Paladins don't have this, outside of Repentance. And while one might argue that it's "overpowered," just because it's ranged: one cannot ignore a Warrior's Pummel or a Rogue's Kick -- they have even shorter cool-downs than Exorcism.
Looking at Arena statistics, and by your own admission, we're still one of the most underrepresented specs in the grand scheme. Your point is appreciated in that they may need to tweak the Glyph, but the rest of your post seems to be knee-jerk: based on your own opinion rather than numbers.
If you want to argue that Holy/Prot Paladins are generally overpowered due to base mechanics, this is not the appropriate place to do it.
I think we've got JoW bugs again, I heard someone state it's multi-stacking again, but if not it's proccing ridiculously frequently.
I don't know about Judgement of Wisdom, but Seal of Wisdom may be multistacking. I was grinding a bit of Timbermaw rep today. Time and again I'd one-shot a mob with CS or DS and get +233 mana twice.
It is very difficult to one-shot a mob with Crusader Strike only as it starts auto attack as well. What you saw may have been two SoW procs, one from the melee attack and one from the special attack. I have been testing a bit with just DS and I could not reproduce two SoW procs.
P.S. don't be confused by cyrillic letters in WWS report, i'm playing on the russian realm
I was looking this over and was pretty impressed. Personally I hate patchwerk and don't like to consider it a benchmark since I usually end up dead for going in too early or I wait too long and do poorly on damage. Now a few things I noticed, aside from you doing good dps. #1 you are running with pretty low hit, are you using hit rating food? Alliance generally need less hit because of the dranei aura right? Is there a reason you aren't using BoH? I was thinking you might be using The Jawbone because of the added expertise you get from being human and all.
As far as the upcoming change with exorcism hitting everything... that's it? Right now ret does ok damage but this is only due to the fact that everything is undead. What I'd really like to see done is something with RV, maybe getting some kind of a benefit from trauma (it probably won't happen). I don't know if it's just me but I get the feeling GC doesn't care too much for ret paladins /shrug. I hate being the ginger kid when it comes to melee.
GCs comment awhile back about boosting melee dps made no mention of ret paladins or enhancement shamans either. As far as melee dps goes, we think rogues, cats and Arms warriors are all a little low. We haven't announced specific changes yet but they are coming. I hate feeling like the ginger kid when it comes to melee.
Those last minute changes in 3.08 with Vengeance hurt, here's to hoping 3.1 gives our dps some kind of facelift.
First off: this is the Retribution Paladin Thread. It's for productive discussion and the exchange of ideas to help each other out. This is not the self/class-loathing, insult, and whining thread.
Secondly, I disagree that Ret Paladins are "extremely overpowered" and that Exorcism would trump any other class's interrupt utility. There are other classes that exist with ranged interrupts. Warlocks have Felhunters, Mages have Counterspell, Priests can Silence, Hunters have Silencing Shot: all are considered a ranged interrupt/lock-out and they're on a fairly short cooldown, comparatively. They also generally provide higher damage output in PvP and are "balanced" around their interrupt abilities. Additionally, most other classes have CC effects which act as interrupts, as well as remove a player's ability to control their actions. (i.e. Fear, Polymorph, Blind) Paladins don't have this, outside of Repentance. And while one might argue that it's "overpowered," just because it's ranged: one cannot ignore a Warrior's Pummel or a Rogue's Kick -- they have even shorter cool-downs than Exorcism.
Looking at Arena statistics, and by your own admission, we're still one of the most underrepresented specs in the grand scheme. Your point is appreciated in that they may need to tweak the Glyph, but the rest of your post seems to be knee-jerk: based on your own opinion rather than numbers.
If you want to argue that Holy/Prot Paladins are generally overpowered due to base mechanics, this is not the appropriate place to do it.
I couldn't agree more with you, especially in regards to the very long list of classes cc abilities. I struggle to understand how people can think that other classes like mages have less burst than a ret paladin. The main difference I see between ret paladins and other burst classes are the many more abilities that they have. The list is endless but in my opinion hunters are ridiculously OP right now, not to mention the chain cycloning that druids can do.
After taking a 13k Pom Pyro followed by a 5k Arcane Barrage in a matter of 2 seconds last night, I decided that the exorcism glyph was something that we have needed for a long time.
I was looking this over and was pretty impressed. Personally I hate patchwerk and don't like to consider it a benchmark since I usually end up dead for going in too early or I wait too long and do poorly on damage. Now a few things I noticed, aside from you doing good dps. #1 you are running with pretty low hit, are you using hit rating food? Alliance generally need less hit because of the dranei aura right? Is there a reason you aren't using BoH? I was thinking you might be using The Jawbone because of the added expertise you get from being human and all.
As far as the upcoming change with exorcism hitting everything... that's it? Right now ret does ok damage but this is only due to the fact that everything is undead. What I'd really like to see done is something with RV, maybe getting some kind of a benefit from trauma (it probably won't happen). I don't know if it's just me but I get the feeling GC doesn't care too much for ret paladins /shrug. I hate being the ginger kid when it comes to melee.
GCs comment awhile back about boosting melee dps made no mention of ret paladins or enhancement shamans either. As far as melee dps goes, we think rogues, cats and Arms warriors are all a little low. We haven't announced specific changes yet but they are coming. I hate feeling like the ginger kid when it comes to melee.
Those last minute changes in 3.08 with Vengeance hurt, here's to hoping 3.1 gives our dps some kind of facelift.
A couple things to note is that hit isn't important enough to use hit food for, and another thing to note is that his Patchwerk kill was very fast, I believe 1:45 or so. Everyone's dps will naturally be higher in this situation because a bigger portion of his dps uptime was spent with Bloodlust and AW active.
As for the rest of your post - No, that's not it. They only posted a small portion of each class changes. The reason that they only said rogues, cats, and arms warriors are low is because ret is not low. It is quite early to be announcing doom and gloom.
I was looking this over and was pretty impressed. Personally I hate patchwerk and don't like to consider it a benchmark since I usually end up dead for going in too early or I wait too long and do poorly on damage. Now a few things I noticed, aside from you doing good dps. #1 you are running with pretty low hit, are you using hit rating food? Alliance generally need less hit because of the dranei aura right? Is there a reason you aren't using BoH? I was thinking you might be using The Jawbone because of the added expertise you get from being human and all.
First of all, i'm not human, i'm BE and i was actually using BoH. And second, as it was mentioned couple of times here - hit cap is not that important nowdays. As for the kill time, yes it was fast, but ideal time for paladin imo would be ~2:30 when you can use 2 wings during the fight. Also i forgot to use detect undead, that was -1% dps =\
I would assume that a new talent ot two will be put in the prot tier 1 position. That being said, without seeing the tree adjustments, I think this build would be the best for 3.1. Picking up 15% int from holy.
►10 points freed: 5 Kings, 2 Imp BoM, 2 Vindication, 1 JoC.
►You need to spend 5 pts to get to tier 2 holy, so pick up seals in Tier 1 as you lose command for those gimmick times you cant use blood (gluth decimate, loatheb if you are getting low health, etc.)
►Fill out divine Int in holy.
With the added 15% added onto raid buffs etc, and picking up 1-2 pieces of hunter/enh sham gear you should be able to push 11K mana raid buffed. Obviously increasing replensih ticks, starting mana, and mana restored via divine plea.
===============
Has anyone else noticed Sheath of Light rolling now? Was this something I just never noticed or possibly an undocumented update?
I have the uneasy feeling that the Exorcism glyph will get murdered along the way, but in compromise as I prefer PvE, a few seconds reduction on the cooldown would make for a good DPS-increasing major glyph as long as they didn't choose a number that created further collisions.
02/06/09, 11:58 AM
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