Ok now seriously. Have people been reading the whole thread? I brought up the gear selection idea very very early in this thread. People have been putting their views forward on perfect gear. Posting here asking if x is better than y is completely useless. It is OVERALL from total gear slots what is better. When upgrading slots you may need to regem, or possibly be over the hit cap.
If you read the whole thread there are at least 3 sets of gear people are after. Personally, im going with Hylo.
My example of gear choices are hypotheticals to illustrate a point. Your haste to call me out might have made you miss that. I have read this entire thread; I am seconding the idea that Redcape's spreadsheet have gear selection. As for going for perfect sets of gear, that's fine, but it's not always realistic. Being able to discern easily the value given to a piece by it's +hit is not a stretch, and would be valuable. I can forsee something like pawn doing their valuations on a stat by stat basis.
I've seen the "gear sets," and they're fine, but they're also hypotheticals that for one reason or another people may never achieve. Being able to break down gear stat value to a stat by stat basis is what I'm looking for. Maybe some people are ok with leather/mail. Maybe some are getting the gear offspec and don't have quick access to offspec tier gear. There are lots of reasons self evaluation is more valuable than following someone's list. Hell, maybe the list is wrong.
Here is a theory, which I can test tonight (or someone else can test earlier): What if there is a bug with Improved Judgements such that if you judge after 8 seconds but before 10 seconds you cause the bug? The theory would be that Improved Judgements properly changes the displayed cooldown, allowing you to activate the ability again after 8 seconds, but the coding is done incorrectly somehow such that if 10 seconds haven't actually passed then the judgement just goes back on cooldown without going off.
This, of course, is a pretty crude theory, but it should at least be easily testable.
Extremely doubtful. My own theory is that they screwed up some coding in between 3.0.1 and 3.0.2 with our many, many hotfixes - specifically the coding pertaining to seals proccing on judgements (in 3.0, SoB and all seals were proccing off every judgement, but in 3.0.2 this was stealth fixed to only allow command to function this way), making fixing this bug or finding a 100% stable workaround impossible for us, it is something beyond our control. I believe the reason that the castsequence macro is working for some people (myself included) is because there is a slight delay between the debuffs being swapped, sometimes bypassing some code that was put in to prevent us from burst-gibbing stuff with seal+judge. Just my own nutjob theory :s
@ people requesting gear help: like I said in the OP, this thread and many others, as well as spreadsheets and tools, are far from complete. I mean hell, it took like 4 months after sunwell was released to get rawr/bellator's spreadsheet to work well ;p Just gear STR once your hit is decent is a pretty good rule.
My example of gear choices are hypotheticals to illustrate a point. Your haste to call me out might have made you miss that. I have read this entire thread; I am seconding the idea that Redcape's spreadsheet have gear selection. As for going for perfect sets of gear, that's fine, but it's not always realistic. Being able to discern easily the value given to a piece by it's +hit is not a stretch, and would be valuable. I can forsee something like pawn doing their valuations on a stat by stat basis.
I've seen the "gear sets," and they're fine, but they're also hypotheticals that for one reason or another people may never achieve. Being able to break down gear stat value to a stat by stat basis is what I'm looking for. Maybe some people are ok with leather/mail. Maybe some are getting the gear offspec and don't have quick access to offspec tier gear. There are lots of reasons self evaluation is more valuable than following someone's list. Hell, maybe the list is wrong.
Have you read the other thread http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t36972-r...ps_calculator/ there was a link to wowhead with all the weights factored in (its even on the first page.) If you are concerned about being over the hit cap you can just remove the weight from whatever slot you can loose the excess. By doing this you can see what items would be more beneficial to you when you have capped hit.
Have you read the other thread http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t36972-r...ps_calculator/ there was a link to wowhead with all the weights factored in (its even on the first page.) If you are concerned about being over the hit cap you can just remove the weight from whatever slot you can loose the excess. By doing this you can see what items would be more beneficial to you when you have capped hit.
For now, I've decided to make a second custom Pawn string, and set the hit value to zero, so I can see the value of a piece if I'm already hit capped. It's not perfect, because the hit on many pieces is so large that removing it once again drops you below the cap, but it will do for now.
The point I'm trying to make is, given multiple pieces of gear per slot at your immediate disposal, different permutations may be stronger than a strict "best of slot" methodology due to hit capping. Choosing which piece of hit gear to replace requires many permutations of gearset possibilities. Something that could assist in this department would be helpful.
tl;dr: Looking for tool to help me drop my +hit most effectively, based on gear I have, and gear I am within reach of.
Right now your Pawn solution is likely going to be the best way for you to evaluate items, and then manually calculate if swapping them out drops you below the cap.
Even in the best spreadsheets I've seen, they did not have a tool that would allow you to evaluate every peice of gear on the assumption that 'this will cap hit for me'. Rawr may be able to do that, as it ranks gear in slots based on net DPS difference between an unquipped slot, and that peice of gear, assuming the rest of your gear doesn't change. But even with that, you'll have to change each peice as you get it, and evaluate on a peice-by-peice basis what is good or not.
I had heard rumors that such a mod used-to exist, and factored in all gear/talents/buffs, to tell you the DPS upgrade for each item, but is not working with 3.0.
tl;dr : The tool your looking for doesn't exist.
Chaith logs on
<zyl> Actually, I do like my paladin. He's fun to play, but don't tell Chaith.
<chaith> Looks like i logged in at the right time
<zyl> ....
<zyl> I pressed enter half a second after you logged on.
Right now your Pawn solution is likely going to be the best way for you to evaluate items, and then manually calculate if swapping them out drops you below the cap.
Even in the best spreadsheets I've seen, they did not have a tool that would allow you to evaluate every peice of gear on the assumption that 'this will cap hit for me'. Rawr may be able to do that, as it ranks gear in slots based on net DPS difference between an unquipped slot, and that peice of gear, assuming the rest of your gear doesn't change. But even with that, you'll have to change each peice as you get it, and evaluate on a peice-by-peice basis what is good or not.
I had heard rumors that such a mod used-to exist, and factored in all gear/talents/buffs, to tell you the DPS upgrade for each item, but is not working with 3.0.
tl;dr : The tool your looking for doesn't exist.
Can anyone explain how the Rawr Optimizer works? If you go through and select multiple pieces of gear for each slot, does it only evaluate the gear for that slot on a slot-by-slot static process? Or does it dynamically evaluate all the available gear to create the best combination for overal net DPS gain? Because if its the former, then no it won't do what he is asking. But if it is the latter, then by nature of the process it will effectively select the most efficient pieces of +hit gear without going past the hitcap anymore than necessary. I have only just begun using this tool, so I haven't had time to really test it out to see how smart the optimizer really is.
If you use something like Rawr to compare gear for effective DPS increase you'll find what's been mentioned before: you will produce maximum DPS by not hitcapping and instead gaining excessive Str.
Hit cap is no longer required to reach the highest possible DPS, even averaging in entirely missed attacks the raw power of Str for Paladins can make it overwhelm hit gear. The fact seals proc on specials and white distributes this DPS more smoothly as well - missing a white+seal becomes less of an % total DPS loss.
With testing finding melee hit cap on boss appears to be 8% and many/most/all(??) paladins finding it even lower ("ghost hit"), this increasingly devalues hit.
Caveat - this does not address mana issues which could be caused from missed Judgements. A theoretical numbers-crunched approach to DPS like Rawr would not also juggle this variable (since time to OOM is dependant on raid buffs, length of fight, etc). A bad RNG night could also leave you screwed on DPS.
Personally I wouldn't worry about hit cap, but would not drop all hit gear altogether.
For now, I've decided to make a second custom Pawn string, and set the hit value to zero, so I can see the value of a piece if I'm already hit capped. It's not perfect, because the hit on many pieces is so large that removing it once again drops you below the cap, but it will do for now.
There seems to be a lot of people that believe the relative value of hit changes the closer you get to the cap. Sub cap the value is 1.26. At or above the cap, the value is 0. The way you're doing it is perfect. Have one Pawn string: 'capped,' hit=0, have another 'subcap,' hit = 1.26. For any given item, if it's capped score is higher than your current piece, and it doesnt drop you below cap, it's better. If it's subcap score is higher, even if it drops you below hitcap, it's still better.
I'm not a math guy by any means though, if there's something wrong with my thought process, somebody please correct me.
Thanks for posting that link Redcape, Pawn is an awesome tool, especially for those of us who are math-challenged...
(And is it just me, or do others feel that until Bliz at least aknowledges the hit bug, too many people are wasting stats 'capping' way above the actual cap)
There was discussion earlier in this thread about Glyph's SoB and SA. I just wanted to point out the difference in their tooltips and to clarify if I'm understanding them properly or not. Wouldn't 10% be greater than 2%?
There was discussion earlier in this thread about Glyph's SoB and SA. I just wanted to point out the difference in their tooltips and to clarify if I'm understanding them properly or not. Wouldn't 10% be greater than 2%?
Question. I heard it stated either in this thread or Redcap tread that Divine Storm and Crusader Strike are Normalized at 3.3 Weapon speed.
True or False?
If True, then why are we still supposedly supposed to be aiming for Slower weapons?
The only things depending on it would be Seal of Command and Seal of the Martyr.
SoCom I completely understand the slow weapon proc. IT's as it was since vanilla WoW.
SoTM should be as it was in BC for Blood Elves. It really doesn't matter because it procs with every melee swing. The only additive benefit I can think of would be the SotM procs from Judge, CS and DS. But how much extra Damage does that really provide? Is ti really 7.8 weapon dps worth for every .1 Slower?
Last edited by Scorpiodrush : 12/05/08 at 8:51 PM.
I don't see this discussed much anymore: perhaps I missed the boat as Lich King was released a month ago. As far as leveling is concerned, what are everyone's thoughts on dps versus mana efficiency? What build did you like using? Are we still focused on strength and spellpower above crit and spellcrit? Is there a basic rotation I'm supposed to be using now? Blessing? Aura?
Sorry to be so nubish, but my account's been cancelled for awhile and I can't seem to figure out what happened to Sanc Aura. I guess I'm just a little woozy.
Thanks.
"I'm sorry, honey, but since I stopped playing WoW it appears that there has been some sort of expansion to the game. Unfortunately, it appears to be quite good." -- Me to my Wife
That type of question is probably best left for the simple paladin questions thread. Basically, gear as a warrior, seal of command, blessing of might. Sanctity aura was replaced by Ret aura, which was reworked to include the +3% damage from talents, +3% haste and now scales with AP/SP. Don't worry about mana while levelling, JotWise and Divine Plea (at 71) should cover your standard mob grinding rotation until you reach 80 and start raiding at least.
Question. I heard it stated either in this thread or Redcap tread that Divine Storm and Crusader Strike are Normalized at 3.3 Weapon speed.
True or False?
If True, then why are we still supposedly supposed to be aiming for Slower weapons?
The only things depending on it would be Seal of Command and Seal of the Martyr.
SoCom I completely understand the slow weapon proc. IT's as it was since vanilla WoW.
SoTM should be as it was in BC for Blood Elves. It really doesn't matter because it procs with every melee swing. The only additive benefit I can think of would be the SotM procs from Judge, CS and DS. But how much extra Damage does that really provide? Is ti really 7.8 weapon dps worth for every .1 Slower?
If you refer to redcapes dps spreadsheet its broken down fairly simply, with .1 speed= 5.6 weapon dps i believe it was, not 7.8, and roughly every .1 speed slower a gain of @ 30 dps. The reason we still aim for 'dead slow' weapons is that even tho CS/DS are normalized they dont respresent the majority of our dps piechart. After running a raid, open recount and check out the breakdown of your total dps, im willing to bet yours, and most other paladins, top 3 abilities are gonna be Judgement of Blood, Seal of Blood, and Melee....
Question. I heard it stated either in this thread or Redcap tread that Divine Storm and Crusader Strike are Normalized at 3.3 Weapon speed.
True or False?
If True, then why are we still supposedly supposed to be aiming for Slower weapons?
Normalization in the context of instant attacks means normalization of attack power contribution. Meaning that instead of using the weapon's speed when calculating damage added from AP to an instant attack, the game uses a set value that depends on weapon type. Weapon damage itself is still a factor - and assuming equal dps, a slower weapon will have higher damage than a faster one. That is why slow speed is still preferable.
Hey guys. My question is fairly simple. How reliable is Rawr regarding gear upgrades and deciding which item is better? I don't seem to agree on some of the suggestions and I am not sure if this program is actually reliable. What do you think?
Hey guys. My question is fairly simple. How reliable is Rawr regarding gear upgrades and deciding which item is better? I don't seem to agree on some of the suggestions and I am not sure if this program is actually reliable. What do you think?
It's a good tool, however there are a LOT of options that can be toyed with, resulting in different results from what you see elsewhere. As far as I've seen, it's been an excellent tool (with the exception of a bug in version 2.1.1, but that's fixed now).
So I wanted to do some testing on the Berserker enchant and see if it would be worthwhile to enchant once I get another weapon and I'm definitely thinking it will be. The only toon I had access to test this on was a TG Warrior with Berserker enchanted on his MH Betrayer. The test was done basically just auto attacking and hitting WW on the CD on a level 80 training dummy for 10 minutes. These are the times that the enchant proc'd during the test:
Now with the number of times the buff refreshed itself and how close together some of the procs are we can definitely say that there is no internal CD and suddenly this enchant is looking a lot better than massacre to me.
so a question about Glyph Seal of Blood and Glyph Seal of Spiritual Attunement is do they not stack?
They stack, but there is no requirement to use both. In addition, you lose one of the two dps increasing ones (Judgement + Cons).
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I have a question about haste rating and why exactly it is so bad.
When I think about what haste does is it decreases my swing time, thus allowing more white hits and ultimat ely more SoB procs. Does haste somehow lower the damage of SoB?
I have a question about haste rating and why exactly it is so bad.
When I think about what haste does is it decreases my swing time, thus allowing more white hits and ultimat ely more SoB procs. Does haste somehow lower the damage of SoB?
Because swing + SoB only makes up about 30% of overall damage thus haste has poor returns now. This wasn't the case prior to 3.0 when melee swing + seal proc made up a significant part of overall damage.
I see some people asking about the SA and SoB glyphs and they are simply not worth it.
The best three glyphs for PvE are:
Judgment (obvious)
Consecrate (again fairly obvious)
Crusader Strike (not as obvious)
I did some testing and when I equipped the Crusader Strike Glyph it lowered the cost of my CS by 70 mana. From the tooltip I was expecting a 60 mana reduction, but it appears the glyph takes 20% off the base cost not the cost after the reduction from Benediction. So the glyph is worth roughly 70 mana every 8 seconds (yes the cd for CS is 6 seconds, but I'm accounting for gcd overlap and human reaction time). To compare it to the SoB or SA glyph you simply have to figure out how much you would have to be healed for every 8 seconds and see if the numbers are reasonable.
The SA glyph is worth an extra 2% mana returned on heals thus to get 70 mana back from 2% on heals you would have to be healed for (70 / .02 = 3500) damage every 8 seconds for it to be better than the CS glyph.
The SoB glyph is worth an extra 1% mana returned on heals so you would have to take (70 / .01 = 7000) damage every 8 seconds for it to be better than the CS glyph.
There might be a few AoE heavy fights were the SA glyph might trump the CS one, but I can't think of any situation where the SoB glyph will come out ahead. Thus for general raiding purposes I would highly recommend the CS glyph for your third glyph slot.
Is the Consecration Glyph really even worth it? If it's just a mana saver but you are already not running out of it, wouldnt AW Glyph be better? Even if it is fairly situational and not really that great of an increase anyways.
Question. I heard it stated either in this thread or Redcap tread that Divine Storm and Crusader Strike are Normalized at 3.3 Weapon speed.
True or False?
If True, then why are we still supposedly supposed to be aiming for Slower weapons?
Divine Storm and Crusader Strike are normalized, yes, but that still makes slower weapons deal more damage by virtue of their higher damage range. Normalization just means that a slow weapon's advantage is a static one (i.e. being eventually outpaced by a faster weapon if the DPS is high enough) instead of a scaling one (i.e. the slower weapon always being better because of a greater AP contribution).
Secondly, the weapon damage portions of Seal/Judgement of Command and Blood are NOT normalized.
12/05/08, 2:00 PM
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