HamSlammer

Forgetfulness, at least in the case of Patchwerk. I swap between the two depending on the fight.

 

kottonmouth

I just got fury last week and didnt swap it out once this week and I see myself doing the best damage I have ever done. Even on fights where the buff falls I still see it being the better trinket.

WWS

 

Kenobe

I have a question regarding weapon choice and I'm hoping someone will be able to help me understand or redirect me to a post dealing with this topic.

When comparing armor or accessories, it's easy to just put the items side by side and select the one that gives you the highest boost in terms of preferred stats.

When comparing weapons however, there are three additional stats :
> top-end and bottom-end damage
> weapon speed
> DPS

Which of these are the most relevant and which need to be compared? How are these stats used to calculate the damage we deal? Why is Betrayer of Hunamity superior to the Jawbone for example? Are these stats worth more than the "bonus" stats on weapons (strength, crit, hit, etc...)?

I apologise if the answer to these questions is obvious to everyone else. This is the only topic I just can't seem to find the right answers to on this forum.

 

abs0lut

I don't know if I buy the RNG argument. I mean I have noticed my Judgement damage is lower than normal. And I have been clearing content for months. Is it some strange coincidence that 4-5 people have all come to EJ at the same time to ask what's up with their dps? I dunno. I am going to go back and compare my wws from this week with one from pre-patch. My hunch is something was tweaked.

 

Merovengian

There are indepth discussions within Redcapes ret theorycrafting thread as to why stat values are weighted as they are, well documented for all to see. If reading spreadsheets for proof isnt your thing, then i would direct you to the end result. Lootrank

Loot Rank for WotLK

Agreed upon average values input into an item search engine which organizes them by value weights.

 

Janraea

Top-end and bottom-end damage are not important. When people refer to a 'high top-end damage', they mean a slow weapon. DPS and Weapon Speed are both stats, and they both have weights that depend on your gear (they do both impact your damage).

From Redcape's thread, the stat weights for roughly Naxx 10 gear are:

Those are in 'dps per 100' or each stat.

The reason weapon speed matters (the only non-obvious one) is that some our instant attacks can proc Seal of Blood, which isn't normalized - if you use a slower weapon, the dps from everything else will remain roughly the same, but the damage from the SoB procs on instant attacks will increase.

 

smurph98gt

I did this exact comparison, and came to the same conclusion. This wasn't a "RNG I'm not Critting as much type of deal", it was everything was hitting for less. The crit rates were about the same, but the averages were lower across the board. Judgements down ~400, Judgement Crits down 1600, RV ticks down ~250. Same group makeup as before, and no change in gear.

 

rldolph79

The problem with all of your feelings that you're doing less damage is you have offered absolutely nothing to back up what you're saying. If you did a comparison, then post the WWS reports so we can see if/where you went wrong. RNG is only one, albeit huge, factor that could cause your DPS to vary wildly. Did you have the same comp, and if you did, was everyone speced exactly the same as the previous week? Missing a single buff or debuff combined with RNG will cause wild swings in DPS.

I have noticed essentially 0 difference in my DPS since the patch. Given that all the regulars around here are not having issues similar to what guys are explaining, I think it's safe to say that you guys missed something.

edit: It's very important to note that just comparing crit rates isn't good enough to say RNG didn't play a factor. If you proced berserking, DMC: Greatness, and MoT during Avenging Wrath and you happened to have 100% crit for those 20s, you're going to have greatly skewed numbers. You have to look closely at your logs before making assumptions.

2nd edit: I was just looking at you guys who are claiming differences, and all but 1 of you have DC: Greatness. That card alone is enough RNG to account for your weekly difference. I don't have the card yet, and excepting minor differences my damage has been steadily increasing with my gear.

 

Banka

Here's the thing with post-patch DPS analysis: a large portion of the raiding retribution community are going to notice a drop in overall damage done due to nothing apart from the random number generator (and sometimes changes in group composition).

It's just a natural happenstance in any situation where randomness is a factor. Now while it's human nature to try and find an explanation that goes beyond that random factor, a lot of the time there just is no such link.
Claims that ret DPS (and most specifically judgement damage) has dropped happens after EVERY SINGLE PATCH.
This includes the 3.0.8 patch, which was actually a DPS BUFF due to changes in how RV scales with damage multipliers

In any case I'd like to remind you that when making a claim such as "judgement damage is lower after the patch", the general rule within any empirical science is that the burden of producing evidence to back it up falls upon the one making the claim.
Preferrably that said evidence would include something that perhaps suggests a change in coefficients or somesuch.

Personally, I recorded my highest ever patchwerk DPS and judgement crit tonight.
In no way does this mean that I'm going to suggest that ret DPS is higher than pre-patch

 

Finglefold

Arikah:

I just wanted to say thank you for pulling this guide together and keeping it up to date. It answered a great many of my questions with very good supporting data so I can confidently accept the answers.

Thanks again!

 

• Avitus

Well, I'm not really sure there is a discussion here.

Would perma-on Seals make more sense? Definitely, something like presence or stances. But that's only one out of at least a dozen different things we could mention that due to changes have outlived their original design concept.

I guess it's up to the developers if they want to bother.

 

Banka

Redid my 0 hit healing gear consecrate testing (with consecrate glyph).
This time with a WWS report to make for easier viewing and dissection

100 applications, 861 consecrate ticks. My aim was to space out the casts a bit (15 secs rather than 10 secs) to make the report easier to read, but it seems that this was entirely unnecessary as WWS pretty much did that job for me by splitting up all the different consecrate applications.
There was a hunter and a rogue joining in on the doll, but neither class has any ability that would affect the test results.

The report essentially shows two things

A)Hit rating definitely affects the ammount of consecrate ticks you get. (My old testing with hit cap had 100% of the ticks land)

B)The initial "miss" you can get actually has no effect on the ammount of consecrate ticks you get from any given application. You can see this by checking the very first page of the consecrate combatlog


Pretty much just a remake of a test I'd done earlier, but the old one was pen and paper+ recount. Redoing it with a combatlog parse just heightens the "quality" of the research a bit

Now, with a standard spell hit mechanic you'd assume 17% miss while I had 13.9%. Keep in mind, though, that the smaller the data sample, the larger the variance (my old test showed 18.5% miss rate).
I'm just going to assume that each individual consecrate tick can be lost based on the standard spell hit mechanics because, well, it just wouldn't make much sense to have an entirely separate system governing just consecrate

The report should be public, so feel free to give it a read-through. I'm pretty confident that it checks out enough for the consecrate mechanics section to be updated with this additional information

 

Dragonlover

And losing Crusade is another 3% reduction. Thus our DPS will drop in 5% percent compared to undead targets. And that's WITH Exo.

P.S. Funny that they change seals to 30 mins but minor blessings remain at 10 min.

Excuse me my stupidity, but I must ask this question: doesn't HoR forces a boss/mob to attack you resulting your probable death?

 

eMagdAeH

The WWS was expired, but it may have been on a taunt immune boss. That would be what I expect.

 

• frmorrison

Having Seals at 30 minutes makes the solo Paladin's play better. However, giving 30 minute buffs to someone else outside of your party doesn't help the Paladin very much, so they likely will stay 10/30 min in party.

HoR works well to do an extra 20 dps on taunt immune bosses, like Patchwerk and Saph.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Galweyn

personally i have to correct my previous assumption about lowered seal dmg!

It must have been really bad RNG for the frist 3 boss fights... no judgment higher than 10,5k... but later in the evening they went up to 13k+ and i was constantly in the top3.

But there is one problem with the 30 min Seal buffs i discovered last night in naxx... I got Mind Controlled very early in the KT fight an the ai must have changed my Seal from Blood to Command... i didn`t notice that for the rest of the fight, but wondered myself why i suddenly had some mana problems... -.- When i checked the WMO log of that fight i finally realized what happened... surprisingly enough i still was nr1 in dmg in that fight ^^

 

S3nsenmann

Hi everyone,
so we were Trying Malygos 6 mins on Heroic yesterday, and when I just checked the WWS from Yesterday, I noticed a flat 5% miss on melee Swings, Crusader Strikes, and Divine Storms. Assuming 8% Hitrating i'm above on my current Gear. So where do the 5% come from? Do the 8% from the first page count Draenei Hit Aura in, or did I miss something very important?
Here is my current Gear: The World of Warcraft Armory,
and here the WWS:

http://wowwebstats.com/2iose3ekhqn6c

thx for any help

 

shaintan

according to armory:

# Expertise: 7

according to wws posted:

Parry Dodge
8 35
1.0 % 4.3 %



You need 26 Expertise (214 rating, 6.5%) to cap this stat. WWS lists parries and dogdes as "misses", which makes sense cause they did "miss", however its misleading, as the came categorizes them differently.

Get more expertise.

 

benbraco

I always thought it was

45% wd + 45%*23% sp

 

Galweyn

Crusade also works on Humanoids, Demons and Elementals... if the bosses in Ulduar are mostly Giants, Beasts etc then it could be a DPS drop.

 

Merovengian

I believe the argument for increasing buff duration is fair and far past time for update. Every other group buff has a 30min ghetto/1hour reagent duration. Its bad enough that we have to buff individuals rather than teams (spare me the different class discusssion, bc i agree) but a reagented buff should be 1 hour duration.

It's a waste of time, and there is no drawback pvp/pve to increasing the duration past paladin discrimination. That's right, they hate us cuz we bubble. I WAS BORN THIS WAY MAN!

 

Exemplar

We'd always seen the occasional "miss" on the first tick - I had personally attributed this (and recorded it in spreadsheet) as the innate chance to Full Resist any spell simply eating the first tick of Consecration. You are saying a "miss" on spell can still lead to all 8 (or 10 glyphed) ticks hitting the target? This is the conclusion I'm getting from reading your post, as well as your log. 02:59'10.342 to 02:59'20.487 shows a miss, yet all 10 ticks inflict damage.

Any clues what this "miss" message denotes, since it apparently is completely independent from Consecration inflicting all ticks hitting its target?


On 30minute seals vs "auras" or "stances" - we've been improved to the level of "temporary weapon buffs" applied by Shaman. If they wanted to make these a toggle, they would have. 30 minutes is great - why are people complaining/asking for more?


Mana complaints - again, rather than just vague "I think mana without SA will be an issue", I'd like someone to step forward who is currently having some sort of mana issues. End of fight you're sitting near 0 mana after popping a potion? I've found since 3.0.8 that I'm sitting so high on mana I'm barely even using Divine Plea (which is why I think JoW may be stacking or otherwise broken, I haven't bothered to dig into logs). Entire fights where I don't pop DP because it's unnecessary. In Naxx. Spamming everything including Holy Wrath. If SA is nerfed, I'll start using DP properly.

If nerfs to SA cause mana issues, this can be detected with raw numbers and displayed during PTR of 3.1 - complaints in a currently mana rich environment with no knowledge of how hard SA may be nerfed are entirely premature. It's the mana equivalent of "my DPS went down in the patch, we've been nerfed!"

 

• frmorrison

I recall Redcape saying the "miss" was the invisible debuff from Cons missing.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Galweyn

I think this is a relict from old times, when Consecration applied a debuff to targets, standing in the consecration. They changed the mechanic of the spell later, but probably there is still the old code aktive, trying to apply an invissible debuff on your target. This Debuff has no effect but can miss.

 

Tzeni

Symbol of Kings= 24s for stack of 20.
Devout Candle= 20s for 1.

There are 9 classes in the game, right? So a fair cost for 1 hour buffs would be ~45s for a stack of 20 symbols (and hey... that's almost exactly double the cost of the 30 minute buffs!).