The Retribution Paladin Thread (Wrath/3.0) - Page 61

pamela · 01/23/09, 2:08 PM

Originally Posted by Pereg

With regards to the 2.5-3% increase for 4pc bonus, I haven't seen it mentioned or maybe its stating the obvious, but that's potential increase. You have to be able to maintain your 'rotation' without interruption to realize the increase. So on a boss like Patch you may see an increase, but on a boss where there's movement or breaks (Saph, 4H, Maexxna, etc) you might not realize the increase simply because the rotation is interrupted long enough or reset before you get to get that extra judgment in.

While you are DPSing you gain 3-ish percent of your DPS output, which is whatever it is. While you are running, you still gain 3% of nothing, which is nothing. Yes, you may lose benefit off the very last judge CD that doesn't finish, but on the other hand, you may get an extra judge in that someone without the set bonus would not get. I'm not seeing any issue here.

Now if your static rotation has CD clashes that force judgement to be pushed back half seconds, then that is going to reduce the value of the set bonus, but movement fights should not significantly affect it.

Dorvan · 01/23/09, 2:36 PM

Originally Posted by Arthaal

The reason the 3% number is thrown around is simply this: Judgement accounts for around 20-25% of damage done at an optimal 8s cooldown. Reducing the cooldown by 1s is a 12.5% increase in DPS for the ability or a 2.5-3% increase overall. This is ignoring the increased effective mana regen which results from a shorter JotW cooldown.

Yep, it does however fail to consider that you're likely have to use your other abilities slightly less frequently as a result...the GCD space has to come from somewhere. My guess is that it's not a huge detraction, but it'd be nice to have this modeled if it hasn't been done already.

Elzam · 01/23/09, 2:40 PM

Since the patch, I have the distinct feeling that Blizzard fixed the understated bug in which 5% of Retribution Paladin critical strike would not be accounted. Repeated attempts to normalize crit %'s on damage dummies would often result in a Paladin with 35% crit having a consistent 30% in actuality.

Unless I've had such a good few days, it feels like some little kinks in the RNG game were adjusted and corrected, as my judgement is actually evening out at the proper 35 + 25 = 60% rate unbuffed. It's been enough to adjust me from fluctuating 3-4 on Recount to 7-8 based on RNG to a consistent 3-4 with any deviations being explainable through poor performance.

I'll keep an eye on RV, but I did notice offhand a few ticks that were much higher. At first I thought maybe I had hit one of the occasional sweet spots with AW + Mirror of Truth + Greatness for a really high Consecration tick, but it was beyond even that and surprised me.

Pereg · 01/23/09, 2:46 PM

My thought was say on Maaxxna being web sprayed for 6 sec might be enough to lose a couple sec in the rotation that were gained before, or moving out of range often on Sartharion for flame tsunami, or having to stop dps for Saph air phase is going to limit the number of extra judgements you get over an 8sec cd relative to a burn fight like Patch. That's why I say you might not realize the dmg increase on those types of fights, not that you wouldn't see any increase necessarily.

Edit: my point point I was making I guess is that the math on target dummy type of fights don't necessarily apply the same to every boss fight, so it might be misleading to assume you'll realize 3% increase across the board.

rldolph79 · 01/23/09, 2:47 PM

Honestly, this whole discussion about whether to use the 4 set bonus is a waste of forum space. If you have some hard evidence that the math for the 4 piece bonus is wrong, then post it and we can try to prove or disprove your assertion. If, on the other hand, you have a feeling that it should, maybe, possibly be better to sometimes not go with the 4 set bonus then save us all some time and just don't post. DPS is all about math, so if there's no math to back up a feeling, the point is moot.

If you don't want to use the 4 set, then don't, but the math so far says you're wrong... It's as simple as that.

flexbutt · 01/23/09, 2:49 PM

Originally Posted by Elzam

Since the patch, I have the distinct feeling that Blizzard fixed the understated bug in which 5% of Retribution Paladin critical strike would not be accounted. Repeated attempts to normalize crit %'s on damage dummies would often result in a Paladin with 35% crit having a consistent 30% in actuality.

Unless I've had such a good few days, it feels like some little kinks in the RNG game were adjusted and corrected, as my judgement is actually evening out at the proper 35 + 25 = 60% rate unbuffed. It's been enough to adjust me from fluctuating 3-4 on Recount to 7-8 based on RNG to a consistent 3-4 with any deviations being explainable through poor performance.

I'll keep an eye on RV, but I did notice offhand a few ticks that were much higher. At first I thought maybe I had hit one of the occasional sweet spots with AW + Mirror of Truth + Greatness for a really high Consecration tick, but it was beyond even that and surprised me.

I was under the impression that all melee were suffering from the 5% crit reduction on bosses, as posted in the OP. So if they fixed it for paladins they probably fixed it for everyone.

Exemplar · 01/23/09, 2:52 PM

The spreadsheet I maintain models a normal "rotation" (it's on a hidden tab if people want to view it) assuming no latency and perfect play. It models FCFS with CS, J, DS/Cons as priority (DS and Cons can obviously be swapped with glyph since cooldown is the same). This is used to generate Effective Cooldowns on your abilities. You can override this and manually enter cooldowns you select on the first tab. CS, J, DS/Cons actually has better effective cooldown than J, CS, DS/Cons.

If you wear four piece bonus, it changes to a different model on the same hidden tab. This is actually J, CS, DS/Cons. It understands that the best rotation actually changes with 4 piece. Using this new model, 4 piece is a decided DPS increase. So far I'm continuing to show that 4 piece is better than swapping two items out for "best in slot" items. interestingly, J, Cons, CS, DS priority gives the same effective cooldowns (with Exo slightly shorter and HW slightly longer). I'm using this priority, personally.

So, yes, the change in "rotation" has been modeled based on the one second reduction on Judgement. I won't corroborate 3%, but 4 piece continues to pull ahead in all my calculations.

Edit: One report of crits matching paperdoll on one ability in one raid is a terrifically small sample size. Drop down below 4.8% crit and whack a boss level test dummy. Even 1 crit will prove the boss reduction is at least lower, if not removed.

HamSlammer · 01/23/09, 3:49 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

interestingly, J, Cons, CS, DS priority gives the same effective cooldowns (with Exo slightly shorter and HW slightly longer). I'm using this priority, personally.

That's the same priority I've been using since I gained 4piece.

Azrealdnt · 01/23/09, 5:01 PM

On the recent 4 pieces discussion: I'm leaning towards dropping it.

On our first 3 Drake Sarth kill, (I was #1 overall damage

), I noticed that I only used Divine Plea once (while running from Sarth to Ten I use DP and reseal because I can't do anything else.) I don't remember mana being a problem at all. I know there is a bit of raid damage from the random fire and some from the adds, but it seems like if I'm not using Divine Plea it means I can safely drop 4 piece? I thought the bonus was more about mana than x% damage.

HamSlammer · 01/23/09, 5:03 PM

Which one yields more mana saved?

[Glyph of Crusader Strike] - Reduces the mana cost of Crusader Strike by 20% which is equivalent to 1.8% base mana saved per cast. An interesting note, this glyph and Benediction do not hinder each others potency in any way. Meaning, the cost of CS is reduced to 5.6% base mana.

[Glyph of Hammer of Wrath] - Reduces the mana cost of Hammer of Wrath by 100%. HoW is influenced by Benediction, making it 10.8% base mana per cast.

Now, here's the portion where a specific condition has to be assumed. For this comparison, it's the frequency of casts of CS and HoW. Both have a 6 second cooldown, so without the 20% restriction on HoW their casts should be 1:1. However, HoW obviously does have that restriction meaning it's only usable for 20% of the fight versus CS 100% usage. Therefore, we can assume that CS is used 5 times more often than HoW, for a ratio of 5:1.

Using this ratio, we can setup a formula to compare the glyphs.

Mana saved with CS Glyph = 5*1.8% = 8% base mana saved
Mana saved with HoW Glyph = 1*10.8% = 10.8% base mana saved

So, over the course of a fight HoW should save you more mana assuming a 5:1 ratio.

However, none of us are perfect in our rotations and some situations open up CS over HoW or vice versa (webbed on Maexxna at sub 20%, for example). Your mileage may vary.

Now, a potentially better ratio to use here is where they're equal in terms of mana saved. That ratio can then be used to compare to your personal numbers from a WWS or Recount to determine which glyph will save you more mana.

1.8x = 10.8
x = 10.8/1.8
x = 6

At 6 CS casts to every 1 HoW cast, the glyphs are even in terms of mana saved.

As a closing note, I personally prefer the HoW glyph over the CS glyph for purposes of streamlining. The mana you consume while the target is above 20% will remain the same to the amount you consume below 20%. That piece of information is personally more useful because it's easier to predict and line up Time Til Oom with Time Til Death.

HamSlammer · 01/23/09, 5:10 PM

Originally Posted by Azrealdnt

On the recent 4 pieces discussion: I'm leaning towards dropping it.

On our first 3 Drake Sarth kill, (I was #1 overall damage

), I noticed that I only used Divine Plea once (while running from Sarth to Ten I use DP and reseal because I can't do anything else.) I don't remember mana being a problem at all. I know there is a bit of raid damage from the random fire and some from the adds, but it seems like if I'm not using Divine Plea it means I can safely drop 4 piece? I thought the bonus was more about mana than x% damage.

4piece is scalar is the amount of DPS it provides. The mana regeneration is not. If anything, you should be gearing it for the DPS gain. The mana gain is a bonus... to the bonus.

Dorvan · 01/23/09, 6:35 PM

Originally Posted by rldolph79

Honestly, this whole discussion about whether to use the 4 set bonus is a waste of forum space. If you have some hard evidence that the math for the 4 piece bonus is wrong, then post it and we can try to prove or disprove your assertion. If, on the other hand, you have a feeling that it should, maybe, possibly be better to sometimes not go with the 4 set bonus then save us all some time and just don't post. DPS is all about math, so if there's no math to back up a feeling, the point is moot.

If you don't want to use the 4 set, then don't, but the math so far says you're wrong... It's as simple as that.

Personally, my question came not because I doubt the 4-piece is the way to go right now (back-of-the-envelope math certainly indicates that to be the case), but because I'd seen no math one way or another for it beyond the rough "increases your judgment damage by 12.5%" approximation. Notably, neither Redcape's spreadsheet nor Rawr model the 4pT7 bonus atm, and it'd be nice to nail down a more exact figure for the benefit of it.

Thanks for hashing out the math Exemplar, I'd missed your spreadsheet as it's kind of buried in the middle of a thread with few references to it. If you're actively developing it for public consumption, perhaps a new thread for discussion of it would be in order, or a reference added to the first post of this thread to make it more visible?

Shldnhearth · 01/23/09, 6:54 PM

Can any of you guys who are not using 4pc, but who are using "best in slot" (or close to it) post some wws of your patchwerk fight?

Redcape · 01/23/09, 8:16 PM

My spreadsheet does not model the 4pt7 directly, but you can easily change the listed gear and modify the cooldowns to see whether your damage goes up. You will need to extensively theorycraft or do in game testing to figure out the actual cooldowns given how you play and the rotation you choose, but the functionality is certainly there to do it. Of course if you want the sheet to figure it out for you my spreadsheet certainly fails.

I have another edition coming out tomorrow with the 3.08 changes built in including the changes to RV for those who like my sheet.

saibot · 01/23/09, 9:19 PM

Originally Posted by Exemplar

The spreadsheet I maintain models a normal "rotation" (it's on a hidden tab if people want to view it) assuming no latency and perfect play. It models FCFS with CS, J, DS/Cons as priority (DS and Cons can obviously be swapped with glyph since cooldown is the same). This is used to generate Effective Cooldowns on your abilities. You can override this and manually enter cooldowns you select on the first tab. CS, J, DS/Cons actually has better effective cooldown than J, CS, DS/Cons.

If you wear four piece bonus, it changes to a different model on the same hidden tab. This is actually J, CS, DS/Cons. It understands that the best rotation actually changes with 4 piece. Using this new model, 4 piece is a decided DPS increase. So far I'm continuing to show that 4 piece is better than swapping two items out for "best in slot" items. interestingly, J, Cons, CS, DS priority gives the same effective cooldowns (with Exo slightly shorter and HW slightly longer). I'm using this priority, personally.

So, yes, the change in "rotation" has been modeled based on the one second reduction on Judgement. I won't corroborate 3%, but 4 piece continues to pull ahead in all my calculations.

Edit: One report of crits matching paperdoll on one ability in one raid is a terrifically small sample size. Drop down below 4.8% crit and whack a boss level test dummy. Even 1 crit will prove the boss reduction is at least lower, if not removed.

There seems to be a bug or probably something is missing from your spreadsheet: It doesn't consider the valorous helm as a tier 7 bonus. You seem to only include the chest,legs,gloves,shoulders in your calculation for your second rotation, i.e. the rotation with the reduced judgement. This doesn't allow for much flexibility, because for example I want to check the situtation where I equip the valorous helm, chest, shoulders, pants + crude discolored battlegrips or frosted android handguards. Any info?