Considering all that have been said and Blizz own statements about mana regen and mantaining our dps, I assume best way to do so would be to make the modification to Vegeance that they delayed last patch: to make it stack 5 times as it used to be.

This would net us an increase in dps of 6% and I assume that could offset what we're loosing, coupled with new Exorcism. Considering they have said they'd change it back to 5 stacks, I assume they're intending that to Ulduar and thus why it got delayed at the last time.

About the Seal of Martyr/Blood, I can't see why it's still kept with it's current mechanic. It seems to me it was created with the old vanilla thought that as a paladin, we cannot dps good without paying much for it and thus why the recoil. According to their new line of thought, where we should be able to compete on a close margin with all the other dps, why not just take away the recoil from Blood/Martyr and rework our regen mechanics? You guys think it's kept that why just because of PVP, and if so, ain't we balanced around that anyway and thus it could be kept with the current damage without the recoil?

Seeing the new Imp. SS, from shammies, as someone posted, couldn't we see something like some mana % back at each CS we hit or something like? I would like to see another font of regen besides our judgement, so we could have a more streamlined income of mana.

On the mana issue as well and already hitting the excessive talent points, I think Divine Intellect is NOT the way to go. They made a big effort to normalize, in our case, plate dps along the boards and thus, we needing to grab a int increasing talent when they specifically intended to remove int from all our gear seems a counter move. I assume they'll just tweak the trees and put 1 or 2 new talents concerning our new mana regen method, plus ranks for Vegeance again and I would say we are pretty much settled, leaving a few couple flavor points to be expended as we wish.

P.S. I'm not a shaman anymore. Got back to my vanilla paradin ^^

I may be wrong, but what exactly counts as a damaging attack? if damage from aoe counts then reckoning might be awesome. Also, and i'm licking my chops at the thought but i'm sure it doesn't count as a damaging attack, but what about JoM? technically it is an attack that damages you, would that have a chance to proc reckoning?

Point is moot unless they switch talents. You can't get Reckoning without giving up Divine Storm.

No one else is excited for Hand of Salv glyph?

I have been out of the country for the past few days, and just got back in the States.

Assuming it is minor, that is an outstanding glyph that I will have in both my specs (Ret and PvP Holy). Adding a little more depth to the class is great, similar to how Fade is useful for Shadow Priests in PvP, Hand of Salv will be useful in PvP. Also it helps in PvE when the big stuff is coming.


Feedback has just starting to be collected regarding the new 3.1 Ret tree. They have about 10% damage nerf, and that is not the stated policy for Ret (they want 500-700 dps less than the top). So they will see the feedback and change the trees to being that damage back up.

Let's see...

I'm assuming this is a Major Glyph.

I don't find that to be terribly exciting, no. I'm sure you may enjoy using it in Arenas, and sure: it gives some utility to Salvation in PvP. But it's pretty much useless in PvE. In fact, it's a complete waste of a Glyph slot for a raider. A Holy Paladin might find some use for it, but as Prot or Ret: it's not worth the time.

If it's a Minor Glyph it may find some use -- maybe a decent alternative to the Lay on Hands Glyph.

Well depending on your raid comp you may need to put 2 point into Imp Might, but that still leaves us with 12 freaking talent points and no viable dps talents to put them in. This means the RV and Fanaticism changes are straight up dps nerfs. They didn't streamline the Ret tree, they are actually starving it at this point.

I am more excited about the exorcism changes and glyph

But for arena it looks like that one will be one of the definitive choices, altho I doubt it would be a minor glyph; while for PVE it would be close to useless.

A little while ago the blues stated they were planning to change ArP to make it a more attractive stat. I keep looking over the PTR patch notes expecting to see something about ArP that could make it worth picking up. Of course, there are the few pieces of gear that happen to be best in slot based on STR / gem slots with ArP tied onto them (see [Melancholy Sabatons]), but these still seem lacking.

Playing around with different pieces of gear I picked up recently, I decided to drop any and all hit gems in favor of STR. This left me at a pretty horrible place for hit rating, so I picked up a [Grim Toll] as soon as I could to bring up the hit rating. The proc isn't too amazing at this point to be honest. I'm almost scared to try swapping out the GT for the MoT trinket for boss level mobs because of how horribly low my hit rating would be. There's also the fact that I could pick up a Fury of the Five Flights relatively soon which would have a considerably stronger.

The biggest problem is that I've come to a mental block (and I've tried searching through the thread, and yes I have been reading it regularly since the expansion) if I should just harbor GT until a buff to ArP and switch to either MoT or FFF or keep it equipped for the hit rating and consider the proc a boost to CS, DS, and white hits.

Either I missed something some time ago, or it's new - instant FoL from AoW-procs appears to no longer reset the swing timer.

All these free points made me explore some of the other trees and I must say, the idea of having imp devo aura AND imp ret aura is damn attractive for the pure utility aspect (if for some strange reason you dont have a treedrood or a prot paladin, or if you do have a tree, you can give more armour to tanks which is classy). You can also dump the points into holy for some extra heals with those instant FoLs (I have a macro for tank healing while dpsing)

Then I sat down and daydreamed on thinking that SoB would proc reckoning... it was a nice daydream at least. 4 free attacks would have to outdo divine storm and RV =P

Nice one. Maybe this will finally change as well:

Source: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> [Bug] Sheathe of Light + Sacred Shield

Well if you look at the open talents I have a feeling we will be getting a version of Armor to AP like DK and Warriors have. With as many free points as we have and taking a straight up DPS nerf no marginal AP buff will make up for the current nerf, So there is obviously something else coming but I can't see it being something that just makes us all happy I just feel some mediocre fillers will show up.

Granted there are some nice specs you can make with these points open but at the same time I don't want to trade nerf for jack of all trades spec.

Most of the time if a raid boss decided to hit you, I don't think -20% to damage would make much different, and defiantly a waste of a major glyph if it is a major glyph.

I like the new tier 8 looks cool, especially in blue. The Head piece is a little weird though. Can't be any worse than the stupid looking shoulders that the tier 7 has.

I just downloaded the Rawr Beta 2.20.b1 and finally Rawr rates the stats/gear in the way I have seem/felt since beginning of WotLK.
I know that new PTR releases and changes always are fun to look at or speculate around but personally I think we should cool it a bit and not draw to big conclusions until we have seen a bit more from the developers.

Right now it does look like we are getting toned down despite having been told that they wanted the same level of dps in Ulduar.

On a side note, anyone else that have Judged a add at instructor Rasuvious by mistake after he died?
Recoil for +140k ain't even funny. I really hope that some time in the future they will find a better way to balance our damage and mana regen then through recoil damage. We all know that in most cases the damage we take isn't a strain on healers but there are quite a few fights and Achievements where SotM/SoB is just a bit too dangerous.

One last question. Is it only me that think it's a bit weird that to compete you have to use macros and extra add-ons?
Moves that would be more or less impossible due to latency and server lag are now in the hands of every joe you there.
I can't help to think that now days you come up against encounters that would be more or less impossible without add-ons and macros and play classes and not players in PvP/Arena.

I don't know what macros and addons you are talking about, I only use a HoR-macro for bosses immune to taunt and quartz for the swingtimer (although it isn't really necessary anymore). Rest is cooldown management and rotation.

edit: That doesn't mean I'm unwilling to learn, share your thoughts! I just don't think that you need any addons at all to be good at your job.

Addons and macros(?) don't make bad players good. A keyboard turner will not magically down KJ and break 2200 because he downloaded a mod. They're merely tools that make good players better, just as a good baseball player will be good regardless of whether he has a wooden or metal bat. He's just even better with one over the other.

I know reckoning is almost certainly out, but I feel the need to correct this statement. You will often get THREE attacks out of reckoning with a 3.x speed weapon. Let's take 3.5 speed for example. The first charge might be used at 0.0 seconds of having the buff, at which point charge 2 will be used at 3.5s and charge 3 at 7s.

Yea those two (white/blue) look somewhat better, though the coloring of the white one reminds me of some priest set (can't put my finger on it, might be prophecy).

Red one doesn't look half bad considering you'll hide most of the pants with a tabard. It would fit as the PvP set.

That leaves clown colored one. I really hope that's not the 25 man or high end arena one *fingers crossed*



If it's a major I think it'll be pretty useless under almost all circumstances, self-only 20% damage reduction for 10 seconds every 2 minutes (untalented) is not worth giving up any major glyphs in any spec (and not for prot for obvious reasons). There could be an in for PvP holy (HS, Seal and that) but it's still very meh.

If it's a minor it's going to be a standard issue glyph to use for PvP (and always pretty much).

I agree that the devs should consider the vengeance 5 stack again, although there are some points you should consider:
a) If they make it 5 stack again I think they will be maybe "forced" to change the warrior and death knight ones too, just for consistency purposes. On the other hand according to the first batch of paladin changes, blizzard doesn't seem to be very consistent on our talent/mechanics so we are going to have to wait and see.

b) Another point that you should think about and the devs need to consider is that our damage with a 5 vengeance stack may be a little more than intended, i.e. roughly 300-500 DPS more on patchwerk kind of fights and a lot more on gimmick fights like thaddius. And I'm not even taking into consideration (i.e. my pathetic napkin math :p) the new exorcism-always-crits-on-undead plus the exorcism 20% more dmg glyph.

On another note, the tier 1 prot missing talent could very well be a Armored to the Teeth copy. I don't think it will hurt the homogenisation that much, since it will make plate users mostly interested in plate items. And it should be about time that Seals of the Pure affects SoB and JoB.

By the way am I the only one that hopes the coloured t8, i.e. the original concept is very good looking? What's wrong with people and the purple colour? I see people (not here) crying about the "ridiculous" colour set, and that purple is not a proper colour for a paladin set.
I think all of them look good except for the white one. Reminds me a lot of the t8 priest set and t5. We only just need a kilt instead of pants. Like the concept art looks.

BTW: Perhaps I'm blind, but I haven't seen a "PM" button on these boards, so forgive me for this: Exemplar (and ofc bellator): I think I found a bug in your spreadsheet. Whenever I try to input Greatring of Collision as an item on my gear setup, and press "show gems/enchants" a gem slot doesn't appear there. And in fact that happens for all the rings with gem slots. I did check the "gear" tab where all the items are displayed and especially the "MyRing" part, and it is indeed displaying the gem slots there, along with gem colour and socket bonus, but it doesn't work on the main page of the spreadsheet. I think the mistake is on the "G1, G2, G3, G4" column of the rings specifically. On every other item there is an if statement as a function but not on rings. That's one issue. Also another thing that I noticed it is when I select Favor of the Dragon Queen and put a Bold Dragon's Eye on the gem slot, I don't get the gem bonus. It reports "FAILED" in the gem bonus part. I haven't had time to look at this so no input here.
Anyway, Thank you for the maintaining this perfect spreadsheet, and thank you for the excellent update with the rotations, I'm playing with it a lot at the moment. And of course a million kudos to Bellator for making this in the first place.

p.s perhaps it's high time for a separate bellator's spreadsheet thread?

The tier 1 prot talent is currently 1/2/3/4/5% increased healing done by and to you.

The only big problem I have with our new tier set, regardless of color, is all the cloth that's covering the plate parts.
Is it too much asked of blizzard to just give us a tin can?

Anyway, like I said before : With the amount of talent points that are "freed", I really hope that the new "Purifying Power" will drop down to tier2 of the holy tree.
It would benefit our dps quite a bit and would increase interactivity even more.

Only immediate problem that I see with it becomming a tier2 talent, is that Exorcism is learned at lvl 20 and not lvl 15.