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12/05/08, 2:55 AM
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#91
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Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Paladin
Blackwater Raiders
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Edit: removed after re-reading.
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12/05/08, 10:33 AM
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#92
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Von Kaiser
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In last nights raid with 197 hit rating=6.01% and over 2000 hits combining CS/DS/Autoattack/Judgement, I had a grand total of 0 misses. Just another data point to add.
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12/05/08, 11:21 AM
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#93
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Von Kaiser
Human Paladin
Argent Dawn
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Originally Posted by Kiliek
Azu, are you aware of the "missing judgement" issue that has been discussed in this forum? There is anecdotal evidence that sometimes judging, more so in 25 mans almost never soloing, doesn't give any mana return benefit or cause damage. Depending on the frequency of this occurrence, it would lead to mana issues.
Several people have suggested using a castsequence macro to alternate between Judgement of Wisdom and Judgement of Light which may work around the issue.
/castsequence Judgement of Wisdom, Judgement of Light
Hope this helps.
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I tried using this macro the other night on Patchwerk and actually found it was causing Judgement to bug out at a significantly higher rate for me. Nearly all my casts still did damage but returned no mana, causing me to be OOM for nearly half the fight, resulting in an abysmal 2000 dps (as opposed to nearly 3500 the previous week, with worse gear). I switched back to non-macroed judgements after Patchwerk and it worked about as well as before.
I have heard a lot of people sing the praises of this macro though, so there must be something behind it. I'm going to test out a couple more off-the-wall macro ideas I've had over the next week and post again if I get any positive results from them. If anyone has any other suggestions for macros though, please post or PM me and I'd love to give them a try.
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12/05/08, 11:27 AM
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#94
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Von Kaiser
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I have been having success with a similar macro, but going from my assigned Judgement (either light or wisdom) and cast sequencing that with Judgement of Justice. Which leads me to believe that judging something that already exists on the mob could be causing the bug. Will have to do more testing with other paladins to confirm this.
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12/05/08, 12:16 PM
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#95
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Don Flamenco
Draenei Paladin
Darkspear
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Originally Posted by Gevlin
Which leads me to believe that judging something that already exists on the mob could be causing the bug. Will have to do more testing with other paladins to confirm this.
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If that is a cause, it isn't the only cause. I have seen the judgement bug when I am the only paladin present (ie soloing or leveling with friends). It has happened to me both when judging on a mob I have previously judged and also when I am switching to a new mob to judge it. I haven't been able to find a pattern, and while soloing it does not happen that often. But it does still happen.
What I experience is just as others describe: judgement goes on cooldown, but no damage is done and no debuffs are applied.
My best current theory for how to avoid it is to pause momentarily prior to using judgement. If I pause first and look for it, it is nearly always applied properly; it seems like the problem comes when I chain cast it after something else. Anecdote isn't evidence, however, so I don't know for sure that this is a contributing factor.
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12/05/08, 12:47 PM
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#96
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Von Kaiser
Tauren Druid
Shadow Council
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I, too, have been having non-consistent issues with the bug. Two nights ago on Patchwerk (25 man) my first judgement landed with no issues, but my next 3 IN A ROW did the usual CD initiated with no damage/replenishment/refreshing of the debuff. Needless to say I was at 20% mana within 45 seconds and was forced to severely drop DPS for mana recovery. However, for the next hour or so I never had the judgement bug again. This hour included other bosses and trash of the single target and multitarget variety.
I am wondering if there is some validity to what was brought up a few weeks ago that spamming the judgement button before it's off CD causes the bug. I can't really confirm this with hard evidence, but I beginning to be inclined to believe it. Anyone else leaning towards that side of the cause as well?
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12/05/08, 12:48 PM
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#97
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Rogue
Magtheridon
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Originally Posted by Redcape
I want to address the original post where it is stated that there is a certain amount of crit needed to maintain a rolling RV stack. This is not how RV works. It adds the new critical damage onto any remaining damage in the dot and then resets the duration with the new damage total. There is absolutely no need to maintain the stack in any fashion, the stack falling off does not cause you to lose dps.
Secondly, there is no need to cap out expertise and hit. They are fine stats, but the best way to gear is to simply weight every stat according to how much extra damage it makes you do and hit is roughly 75% as good as str, and expertise is 50% as good. Missing may feel bad to some people, but the fact is that str makes you more effective at doing damage than anything else. Hit capping does have the pleasant side effect of smoother mana regeneration, but capping expertise deliberately simply isn't necessary.
If anyone wants really detailed rankings of stats so you can select gear, there are 2 threads in this forum you need to check out:
1. Spreadsheet
2. A mod to make gear selection easy
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Great advice, but here's what I want to see. Something that quickly shows me the worth of gear when +hit and/or +expertise is not factored on the piece. Frankly, I'm over hit cap, and have been over hit cap since i started 10 mans. Hit is all over the place on gear now. The hardest thing for me right now isn't figuring out what piece to get next, it's figuring out how to most effectively drop hit from my gear. Do I swap my Staggering Legplates for Legplates of Bloody Reprisal? Do I go for T7.5 legs over shoulders? Should I get a new cloak that doesn't have hit?
All these mods, and spreadsheets are great (redcape, your SS would be so much more useful if, like Cheeky's hunter spreadsheet, it had actual gear in it) for telling me that a certain +hit piece of gear is amazing, but at this point I need to factor OUT the hit on the gear, because I've gotta start dropping it soon. I'm 10 badges away from T7.5 shoulders, and they've got hit on them as well. It'll put me around 350 hit when it's said and done. That's a lot of wasted itemization. How best do I go about figuring out what piece is the best replacement?
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12/05/08, 1:17 PM
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#98
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Glass Joe
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Just to add onto the ghost hit theory:
I run with 7-8% hit and I did not miss at all on Malygos last night.
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12/05/08, 1:24 PM
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#99
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Don Flamenco
Draenei Paladin
Darkspear
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Originally Posted by eMagdAeH
I am wondering if there is some validity to what was brought up a few weeks ago that spamming the judgement button before it's off CD causes the bug. I can't really confirm this with hard evidence, but I beginning to be inclined to believe it. Anyone else leaning towards that side of the cause as well?
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Here is a theory, which I can test tonight (or someone else can test earlier): What if there is a bug with Improved Judgements such that if you judge after 8 seconds but before 10 seconds you cause the bug? The theory would be that Improved Judgements properly changes the displayed cooldown, allowing you to activate the ability again after 8 seconds, but the coding is done incorrectly somehow such that if 10 seconds haven't actually passed then the judgement just goes back on cooldown without going off.
This, of course, is a pretty crude theory, but it should at least be easily testable.
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12/05/08, 1:26 PM
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#100
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Von Kaiser
Orc Warrior
Nordrassil (EU)
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Originally Posted by Cevil
Great advice, but here's what I want to see. Something that quickly shows me the worth of gear when +hit and/or +expertise is not factored on the piece. Frankly, I'm over hit cap, and have been over hit cap since i started 10 mans. Hit is all over the place on gear now. The hardest thing for me right now isn't figuring out what piece to get next, it's figuring out how to most effectively drop hit from my gear. Do I swap my Staggering Legplates for Legplates of Bloody Reprisal? Do I go for T7.5 legs over shoulders? Should I get a new cloak that doesn't have hit?
All these mods, and spreadsheets are great (redcape, your SS would be so much more useful if, like Cheeky's hunter spreadsheet, it had actual gear in it) for telling me that a certain +hit piece of gear is amazing, but at this point I need to factor OUT the hit on the gear, because I've gotta start dropping it soon. I'm 10 badges away from T7.5 shoulders, and they've got hit on them as well. It'll put me around 350 hit when it's said and done. That's a lot of wasted itemization. How best do I go about figuring out what piece is the best replacement?
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Ok now seriously. Have people been reading the whole thread? I brought up the gear selection idea very very early in this thread. People have been putting their views forward on perfect gear. Posting here asking if x is better than y is completely useless. It is OVERALL from total gear slots what is better. When upgrading slots you may need to regem, or possibly be over the hit cap.
If you read the whole thread there are at least 3 sets of gear people are after. Personally, im going with Hylo.
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12/05/08, 2:00 PM
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#101
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Rogue
Magtheridon
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Originally Posted by Rukiia
Ok now seriously. Have people been reading the whole thread? I brought up the gear selection idea very very early in this thread. People have been putting their views forward on perfect gear. Posting here asking if x is better than y is completely useless. It is OVERALL from total gear slots what is better. When upgrading slots you may need to regem, or possibly be over the hit cap.
If you read the whole thread there are at least 3 sets of gear people are after. Personally, im going with Hylo.
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My example of gear choices are hypotheticals to illustrate a point. Your haste to call me out might have made you miss that. I have read this entire thread; I am seconding the idea that Redcape's spreadsheet have gear selection. As for going for perfect sets of gear, that's fine, but it's not always realistic. Being able to discern easily the value given to a piece by it's +hit is not a stretch, and would be valuable. I can forsee something like pawn doing their valuations on a stat by stat basis.
I've seen the "gear sets," and they're fine, but they're also hypotheticals that for one reason or another people may never achieve. Being able to break down gear stat value to a stat by stat basis is what I'm looking for. Maybe some people are ok with leather/mail. Maybe some are getting the gear offspec and don't have quick access to offspec tier gear. There are lots of reasons self evaluation is more valuable than following someone's list. Hell, maybe the list is wrong.
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12/05/08, 2:04 PM
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#102
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pokazhet lik sveta istina
Blood Elf Paladin
Mal'Ganis
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Originally Posted by Left
Here is a theory, which I can test tonight (or someone else can test earlier): What if there is a bug with Improved Judgements such that if you judge after 8 seconds but before 10 seconds you cause the bug? The theory would be that Improved Judgements properly changes the displayed cooldown, allowing you to activate the ability again after 8 seconds, but the coding is done incorrectly somehow such that if 10 seconds haven't actually passed then the judgement just goes back on cooldown without going off.
This, of course, is a pretty crude theory, but it should at least be easily testable.
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Extremely doubtful. My own theory is that they screwed up some coding in between 3.0.1 and 3.0.2 with our many, many hotfixes - specifically the coding pertaining to seals proccing on judgements (in 3.0, SoB and all seals were proccing off every judgement, but in 3.0.2 this was stealth fixed to only allow command to function this way), making fixing this bug or finding a 100% stable workaround impossible for us, it is something beyond our control. I believe the reason that the castsequence macro is working for some people (myself included) is because there is a slight delay between the debuffs being swapped, sometimes bypassing some code that was put in to prevent us from burst-gibbing stuff with seal+judge. Just my own nutjob theory :s
@ people requesting gear help: like I said in the OP, this thread and many others, as well as spreadsheets and tools, are far from complete. I mean hell, it took like 4 months after sunwell was released to get rawr/bellator's spreadsheet to work well ;p Just gear STR once your hit is decent is a pretty good rule.
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12/05/08, 2:24 PM
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#103
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Von Kaiser
Orc Warrior
Nordrassil (EU)
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Originally Posted by Cevil
My example of gear choices are hypotheticals to illustrate a point. Your haste to call me out might have made you miss that. I have read this entire thread; I am seconding the idea that Redcape's spreadsheet have gear selection. As for going for perfect sets of gear, that's fine, but it's not always realistic. Being able to discern easily the value given to a piece by it's +hit is not a stretch, and would be valuable. I can forsee something like pawn doing their valuations on a stat by stat basis.
I've seen the "gear sets," and they're fine, but they're also hypotheticals that for one reason or another people may never achieve. Being able to break down gear stat value to a stat by stat basis is what I'm looking for. Maybe some people are ok with leather/mail. Maybe some are getting the gear offspec and don't have quick access to offspec tier gear. There are lots of reasons self evaluation is more valuable than following someone's list. Hell, maybe the list is wrong.
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Have you read the other thread http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t36972-r...ps_calculator/ there was a link to wowhead with all the weights factored in (its even on the first page.) If you are concerned about being over the hit cap you can just remove the weight from whatever slot you can loose the excess. By doing this you can see what items would be more beneficial to you when you have capped hit.
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12/05/08, 2:37 PM
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#104
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Von Kaiser
Night Elf Rogue
Magtheridon
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Originally Posted by Rukiia
Have you read the other thread http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t36972-r...ps_calculator/ there was a link to wowhead with all the weights factored in (its even on the first page.) If you are concerned about being over the hit cap you can just remove the weight from whatever slot you can loose the excess. By doing this you can see what items would be more beneficial to you when you have capped hit.
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For now, I've decided to make a second custom Pawn string, and set the hit value to zero, so I can see the value of a piece if I'm already hit capped. It's not perfect, because the hit on many pieces is so large that removing it once again drops you below the cap, but it will do for now.
The point I'm trying to make is, given multiple pieces of gear per slot at your immediate disposal, different permutations may be stronger than a strict "best of slot" methodology due to hit capping. Choosing which piece of hit gear to replace requires many permutations of gearset possibilities. Something that could assist in this department would be helpful.
tl;dr: Looking for tool to help me drop my +hit most effectively, based on gear I have, and gear I am within reach of.
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12/05/08, 2:58 PM
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#105
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Von Kaiser
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Right now your Pawn solution is likely going to be the best way for you to evaluate items, and then manually calculate if swapping them out drops you below the cap.
Even in the best spreadsheets I've seen, they did not have a tool that would allow you to evaluate every peice of gear on the assumption that 'this will cap hit for me'. Rawr may be able to do that, as it ranks gear in slots based on net DPS difference between an unquipped slot, and that peice of gear, assuming the rest of your gear doesn't change. But even with that, you'll have to change each peice as you get it, and evaluate on a peice-by-peice basis what is good or not.
I had heard rumors that such a mod used-to exist, and factored in all gear/talents/buffs, to tell you the DPS upgrade for each item, but is not working with 3.0.
tl;dr : The tool your looking for doesn't exist.
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Chaith logs on
<zyl> Actually, I do like my paladin. He's fun to play, but don't tell Chaith.
<chaith> Looks like i logged in at the right time
<zyl> ....
<zyl> I pressed enter half a second after you logged on.
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