I have a question about haste rating and why exactly it is so bad.

When I think about what haste does is it decreases my swing time, thus allowing more white hits and ultimat ely more SoB procs. Does haste somehow lower the damage of SoB?

I see some people asking about the SA and SoB glyphs and they are simply not worth it.

The best three glyphs for PvE are:
Judgment (obvious)
Consecrate (again fairly obvious)
Crusader Strike (not as obvious)

I did some testing and when I equipped the Crusader Strike Glyph it lowered the cost of my CS by 70 mana. From the tooltip I was expecting a 60 mana reduction, but it appears the glyph takes 20% off the base cost not the cost after the reduction from Benediction. So the glyph is worth roughly 70 mana every 8 seconds (yes the cd for CS is 6 seconds, but I'm accounting for gcd overlap and human reaction time). To compare it to the SoB or SA glyph you simply have to figure out how much you would have to be healed for every 8 seconds and see if the numbers are reasonable.

The SA glyph is worth an extra 2% mana returned on heals thus to get 70 mana back from 2% on heals you would have to be healed for (70 / .02 = 3500) damage every 8 seconds for it to be better than the CS glyph.

The SoB glyph is worth an extra 1% mana returned on heals so you would have to take (70 / .01 = 7000) damage every 8 seconds for it to be better than the CS glyph.

There might be a few AoE heavy fights were the SA glyph might trump the CS one, but I can't think of any situation where the SoB glyph will come out ahead. Thus for general raiding purposes I would highly recommend the CS glyph for your third glyph slot.

Is the Consecration Glyph really even worth it? If it's just a mana saver but you are already not running out of it, wouldnt AW Glyph be better? Even if it is fairly situational and not really that great of an increase anyways.

Divine Storm and Crusader Strike are normalized, yes, but that still makes slower weapons deal more damage by virtue of their higher damage range. Normalization just means that a slow weapon's advantage is a static one (i.e. being eventually outpaced by a faster weapon if the DPS is high enough) instead of a scaling one (i.e. the slower weapon always being better because of a greater AP contribution).

Secondly, the weapon damage portions of Seal/Judgement of Command and Blood are NOT normalized.

As long as your total number of AWs is the same by the end of combat, wouldn't it still be a DPS increase then? I only recently got it, and I have run into times where i've popped AW too early to get any effect out of it.

Valid swap for CS glyph then perhaps?

You should be delaying your last Avenging Wrath of each fight for use sub-20%, specifically to buff HoW. Optimally, the Bloodlust will be called for at a time where you can stack both Lust and AW sub-20%.

While I do agree about the first two I am of a slightly different opinion for the third.

I do not doubt that the CS Glyph does help with some mana efficiency, but I do not feel that it does so enough to be worth that last slot. I would rather use it for the Seal of Command glyph, as that does wonders on any and all fights where SoC is needed to avoid the self-harming of SoB. It also helps for grinding and such, but that is of course in no way relevant to the conversation here, but it is still nice.

Fights that require the use of SoC are of course in a vast minority, but I find that in Naxxramas at least there are more fights where I have to use SoC then there are fights where I have to use a mana potion to get through the whole fight. So all in all I feel the SoC glyph is a better overall DPS improvement for me, for the time being at least.

I wish I could agree, but I definitely can't use SoB on Loatheb. I've played around with it, but getting 10k+ JoB crits relatively consistently have made it so I can't. Next time we're in it I want to try occasionally twisting in SoB for a DPS boost only to see if the seal twisting will be manageable without going OOM.

Actually, using Bloodlust at the beginning of boss encounters is optimal, because that way everyone can use their cooldowns/trinkets together with Bloodlust. Especially Hunters get the biggest use out of that from Bestial Wrath + Call of the Wild (it stacks from any Hunter).


Personally, it could be a dps increase to delay AW for HoW, however stuff dies so fast it is tough to know when to delay or not.

If the boss encounter is under 5 minutes, the best time to use Bloodlust is sub-35% to take full advantage of talented buffs that occur at that point. Everyone should plan to have their cooldowns up and ready to use at that point. For Paladins and most other classes this involves simply popping cooldowns at the beginning of the fight, then holding on to it if the boss drops to around 55% or below before the cooldown comes back up. Properly stacked cooldowns are one of the best ways for many classes to maximize their dps.

If stuff goes from 20% to 0% in under 20 seconds, the fight didn't last more than 2 minutes in the first place. In this case, your original popped cooldowns haven't come back up anyway, and if you used them at all, it's because you didn't expect to blow through the fight so quickly.

The AW glyph is still very situational, but does provide a dps boost, which is more than can be said of the CS glyph.

Ah, good to see a new ret thread here

Regarding glyphs, I go with consecration, undead, judgement, the 2 LoH ones (because their utility and awsome mana regen on demand, when I want it, providing the cd is up).

I always use SoB, in every fight so far, even lothaeb. You healers should be able to top you up.

Against patchwerk, ive noticed the slime does affect our regen. It seems to me if you dive into the slime, while in combat, before judgements or divine plea, it regen suffers a lot (ie geting around 350 mana on JotW isntead of around 650). It is bugged, but i recommend judging and using Divine Plea before diving in the slime and never doing it while in the slime (or with the debuff still).

I would also like to talk about t7 set piece bonuses. Considering most of the t7 gear (apart from shoulders) arent really that good, are we better off missing out on bonuses and geting better pieces on those slots or are we better off taking the not so good t7 for the bonuses?