flexbutt

I don't think anyone in this thread has mentioned doing 7k dps on Patchwerk. The average I've seen from people's posted parses and my own is still around 5-5.5k.

 

Nisall

The last 2 heals don't prove anything as SA doesn't work on overheals and on the 1st heal did you have full mana? Because mana gains (replenishment, DP etc) don't report anything in the combatlog if you are on full mana

 

Lightbender

Average is around 5.5k I believe for very high end ret pallies. I see your kill time was about 3 and a half minutes, that's a rather slow kill time, the shorter it takes the higher your DPS will be due to more avenging wrath uptime, so I would assume you are in fact doing things more or less correctly.

 

Fisker

Spiritual Attunement IS gone, I didn't do my research properly, as it seems some paladins have been bugged in regards to removing it.

If you visit the trainer the trainer will no longer offer to train you SA.

Sorry again for all the confusion.

 

Lau

Anyway, if this is intended and confirmed, contrary to what most posts on mmo-champion forum claim (in fact I only read a few, but seeing they were all pointing in the same direction was enough), this would, of course, be great news for us... still no sign that it would affect Job recoil, but at least it would show that our mana regen would no longer depend on it (and this would port us just one step away from our expected removal of the recoil).

I'm now waiting for official comment or the next PTR build with great impatience.

 

Cevil

Did some testing on the PTR with JoW, Exo, and no Consecration. Using Seal of Command so as not to kill myself, and not using Consecration at all, I couldn't push myself much below 80% mana. FCFS rotation, never sat on Judgement for mana regen, and popped Divine Plea every cooldown. Never even came close to running out of mana. I went to JoLight, and it took me 4 minutes to get down to 30% mana. At this point, I switched back to JoWisdom, and my mana was net positive.

Why is this interesting? Well, they're pushing up Exorcism and CS damage another 15%. 20% on Exo glyphed. They've talked about how they don't like CS and DS being single percentage of our damage. I'm wondering if they're seeking to up our single target damage on Exo CS DS and Judgement, and make Consecration simply unsustainable.

Using Consecration unglyphed, I was out of mana in about 1 min 40 sec with Judging Wisdom (in game stopwatch testing.) I was waiting for Judgement at about 1 min, 15 sec; Divine Plea's regen got burned through pretty quick.

Personally, I'm all for this. It creates a decision: burn Consecration for more DPS but lose mana, and then back off consecration to create mana. Balance us around not using consecration, and even up the cost of consecration. Then, consecration becomes useful on multiple mobs (like the adds on XT-002), but it can't be maintained on a boss.

 

Rasputin

The balance point is our single target DPS without Consecration. Unless there are a lot more buffs coming, it will be far far too low to be meaningful. If they want to rebalance our DPS and mana without Consecration then by all means they should, but doing one without the other just weakens us for no real reason. To date they haven't given us enough single target buffs to offset the losses we get from leaving Naxx while using Consecration, so if they really want us to drop Consecration from our rotation while not neutering our damage, there have to be some pretty serious buffs on the way. Until and unless those happen, Consecration is completely necessary to maintain meaningful DPS.

 

• Arikah

Cevil, we are currently being balanced around consecration usage and it would be foolish to balance around NOT using it - consecrate is on average 10-12% of our dps on single target fights, and upwards of 20% on multimob fights (+3). If we were balanced around not using consecrate we'd be about 20% behind "pure dps" classes. With SA removed on the ptr (confirmed for myself as well) we can only assume they are going to give us another source of mana, be it increased JotW or a deep ret talent to boost DP or something... and this is hopefully the first action towards removing or drastically reducing recoil.

Also confirming that Sanctity of Battle is working a bit odd with the deadly pvp gloves and only boosting their bonus by ~.5%.

 

sepirion

If 3.1 goes live with the current implementation of imp auras (Stacking Imp Devo and Sanctified / Swift Retribution), I can't help but feel like we will be a buff buffet for any raid or group we're in. Bringing more armor, % modifiers for stats / healing / damage / haste, as well as some "oh crap" spells (LoH and the new Divine Sacrifice) would make us very coveted for our buffs alone. If they could bring our dps up a bit more with the same points in the Ret tree, I'll actually start feeling pretty good about 3.1.

The spec I was looking at is http://tinyurl.com/ccy6b8, of course more changes are imminent, but utility-wise I believe things are shaping up pretty well.

Another thing I noticed on PTR, Divine Sacrifice is 40% in both the talent tree and in the spell book, but the tooltip of the buff is still 30%. I didn't have anyone to test out what the actual percent was at the time.

 

Rasputin

Every single on of our buffs is completely replaceable by some combination of other classes. Our DPS needs to be competitive with other hybrids to justify our raid spot. We are not what we were in Sunwell. Please do not tout our amazing utility as our justification for a raid slot, because it is not enough. Our DPS currently needs more than a tiny bit of adjustment and that's where we need attention focused, not on how we can bring Devo Aura and LoH and Kings, because any paladin can bring those now.

 

Vova

Why are you so sure that we are balanced around using consecration on single target fights, when blizzard clearly stated they don't want us to depend on consecration for single target dps? I think Cevil's test is indicative, if not conclusive, of Blizzard trying to cut consecrate out of our rotation. And exorcism being usable on all mobs, Sanctity of Battle buffing exorcism and Crusader Strike, blue posts saying they want CS and DS be more % of our dps, I can totally see consecrate becoming a fan of knives equivalent, only being used for AoE fights.

 

Rasputin

We're balanced around Consecration because the only way we can do competitive DPS on LIVE, using Exorcism, with various other undead-specific abilities boosting our DPS, is by using Consecration. We are still at a net DPS loss at this version of the PTR INCLUDING Consecration. So until we get significant buffs to our other abilities or new abilities to use to make up the difference that Consecration currently provides, we need it to do a reasonable level of DPS. As I said, if we don't get DPS increases to make up for the loss of Consecration, our DPS will take a very large hit, leaving us well below the balance of "all hybrid dps specs should do similar DPS", which is the oft-stated and reinforced balance point.

 

Cevil

If balanced around not using consecrate, we'd be the assumed 5% behind pure DPS classes. Hence the "balancing around" part of the statement. We know 2 things: They are aware we are too low in DPS. They don't like that CS and DS make up such small parts of our DPS. In fact, with your math, a 41 and 51 point talent compare equally to consecrate.

If we make one assumption, that SA is gone, then we can see that Consecration is no longer viable in a rotation. Further assuming that there will be no replacement to SA, our mana issues are not a problem sans Consecration; our damage is. Thus, dropping Consecration and buffing our CS DS and Ju damage would bring our numbers up on single target DPS, and our mana regen would not be a problem.

A balancing of our mana pool around not using Consecration would of course require a rebalancing of the damage our other abilities do.

 

Rasputin

I am assuming that SA is gone, but I'm also assuming that we will get buffs to our mana generation from somewhere else in the Ret tree. I assume that because that's what Ghostcrawler stated earlier in the PTR. This PTR has gone in phases with them implementing things as they're ready, so I see no need to assume large changes to our rotation without better justification.

edit: at Vova specifically but everyone saying our mana regen will be tanking in general.

Source

That was on Feb 22. I don't see any reason whatsoever to assume that they are trying to nerf our mana generation when they said specifically that they are not.

 

Vova

I just realized that even though everything falls in place nicely PvE wise, if consecrate is out our rotation and we are doing 5% less dps then pure dps classes by increasing CS, DS, Ju, and Ex, this would give us a massive burst increase in PvP. Unless... they keep Ju damage the same or lowering it, thus keeping JoB recoil in check (if they arent removing it), and having all our crits proc RV (CS, DS, Ju, and Ex), which with even a 30% RV will be a sustained dps boost. And it kind of makes sense, when they nerfed RV everyone was stunned because its our sustained dps talent. They just havn't given us all the buffs yet because they want to lower it first and see how much they need to increase it to keep our dps viable.

Edit:
In response to Rasputin's post, with SA gone on PTR but no deep ret talent in place to boost mana regen, during the next wave of encounters on ptr rets will go OOM really quick if they keep using consecration. Its safe to say blizzard wants to see our actual dps with a new rotation, subbing out consecration with exorcism, then buffing CS, DS, Ju, and Ex as they see fit.

 

Lau

Not assuming anything for the moment, but I would see another benefit in having Consecration removed from our standard mono-target cycle : give us choice.
I was very interested in the debate about finding whether someone is a good paladin or not. In this regard, our current cycle is NOT conclusive, since you just have to smash everything as soon as it is no longer grey (with the exception, possibly, of Holy Wrath... but a decision every 30 secondes hardly makes for a good player). Some people have spoken about adding a new spammable spell... well, Consecration surely isn't spammable per se, but it is a mana drop and an effective DPS boost ; in addition, it requires some skill, depending on the mobility of the boss (thinking Heigan, Grobbulus).
So, performing a correct dps while not using Consecration at all, and see some paladins managing to top the charts if they manage to use it well without running OOM would surely add some fun to the class.

But sure, we're really not there yet...

 

Cavemanz

From the official updated PTR patchnotes at: WoW -> Test Realm Patch Notes

Spiritual Attunement: Removed from trainers. It is now available deep in the Protection tree for 2 ranks at 5/10%.

 

Lorce11

"Glyph of Seal of Blood: Grants 30% bonus mana from Spiritual Attunement." From the same notes, so i'd guess either it gets reworked again, ret gets a similar talent, or they now intend blood to become a "prot" seal...

 

Stardusty

I doubt healers would appreciate the recoil on tanks however small on progression raids; SoB for tanks as it is is highly unlikely.

 

Taraxuss

"Glyph of Seal of Righteousness: Increases damage done by this seal by 30%." (Taken from new patch notes on MMO-champion.com)

Given how much discussion there was about Righteousness being a viable Seal at the beginning of the expansion, the freedom to use talent points to spec into Holy for Seals of the Pure, and the removal of SA (and in the process, any potential upside of SoB recoil) what kind of effect will this glyph have on SoR numbers?

 

CaptBooyah

I can see why consecrate should get removed from our line up, I always thought that it was a bit of waste to use aoe on single targets not to mention downright annoying to throttle back dps just because I didn't want to break sheeps, kill things that shouldn't be killed or just to avoid aggro from spawning adds.

At the same time I'm concerned for the fights where aoe dps is healthy and where if we use aoe, we end up losing the precious mana we need to continue single target dps. Caster dps are built for switching between single and aoe dps and all the melee have regenerative bars that fits their dps rotations (rage, energy, runes). We have, or looks like we're going to have, 'You can go dump your mana for aoedps now, but you won't have enough to single dps later'. Longer fights with aoe dps needed will end up being our bane.

Perhaps I'll just start asking for the group with the resto shaman =P

 

Alleyra

Unless there has been some huge overhaul to SoB that adversely impacts it's DPSing capability: Retribution will never use SoR, even with the Glyph. SoB scales off AP and crit, while SoR scales heavily off Spell Power and the Seal has no ability to crit. The SoR coefficients are just not as useful for Ret, even with Sheath of Light.

Ghostcrawler: If there is a spec we want to avoid over-buffing so that we don't have to nerf them, it's Ret.

 

hazed1

Even with the talent and glyph, SoR can't crit so it will always be inferior to SoB.

 

Dram

A post by GC saying that SA will not be a regen mechanic for ret World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Ret Paladins and Spiritual Attunement

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...s/LinkMonk.png

 

Teleros

I assume that they'll either let Ret get SA or re-work the glyph. I could understand SoB being intended as the Horde tanking seal back in TBC, but with SoR and SoV (and the high recoil) why bother now?

Just multiply whatever you get now by 1.3 - but take into account Seals of the Pure as well (so should be X * 1.15 * 1.3, or X * 1.495 assuming both multipliers stack properly).
That said, this doesn't take into account the other glyphs you'll have and the cost of using this one instead of, say, the Exorcism or Hammer of Wrath glyphs.

Just hoping it doesn't mean we end up using a L1 spell for Ulduar DPS though...




Edit: GC's post in full: