sjogren

I've searched this forum without finding anything solid, and in various spreadsheets and simulators I've seen different proc chances on JoW, some with cooldowns and some without. I don't believe there's a cooldown and I don't believe there's a flat percentage chance either. I decided to do some testing with different weapon speeds and while the sample size is far too small yet, it does seem to be a ppm mechanic.

Just auto-attacking and judging:

With a 3.9s weapon I had 212 procs over 263 successful attacks (80 of which from judging), that's ~80% proc chance or corresponding to ~12.4 ppm
wws: Wow Web Stats

With a 2.5s weapon I had 288 procs over 525 attacks (114 of which from judging), that's ~55% proc chance or corresponding to ~13 ppm
wws: WWS Loading...

With a 2.7s weapon I had 113 procs over 203 attacks (48 of which from judging), that's ~56% proc chance or corresponding to ~12.4 ppm
wws: WWS Loading...

Yeah, small sample size, but I got bored and hungry. I also ran some ranged tests on my hunter where it's only autoshot:

2.8s weapon: 161 procs over 232 attacks, ~69% chance, ~14.9 ppm
wws: Wow Web Stats

2.2s weapon: 115 procs over 226 attacks, ~51% chance, ~13.9 ppm
wws: Wow Web Stats

Even smaller sample size, but I didn't want to drive my paladin buddy mad with boredom.

I think it's pretty clear there is some weapon speed dependency here, though much larger sample sizes would be needed to figure out the actual ppm. Also, how does it work for spells? Or for physical abilities with cast time like steady shot? Do eg judgements have the same proc chance as autoattacks?

Has anyone else done any testing on this?

 

Redcape

I did only a little testing, but I can 100% confirm that there is no internal cooldown.

I can confirm that autoattacks proc JoW nearly every time when using a slow weapon, and that instant strikes have a extremely low chance to proc it. I don't have firm numbers, but I did a small test where 30 autoattacks in a row procced, and 30 HoW in a row did not proc.

I looked at a large number of WWS parses on patchwerk to figure out the approximate overall proc chance and arrived at 43%. If you are a ret paladin beating on a boss mashing all your strikes appropriately this should give a good approximate value, but I am quite sure that it does not actually reflect the mechanics of the situation at all.

 

dedmonwakeen

Someone with a range of slow weapons could determine the PPM exactly:

Remove all Haste gear and auras.
Start with your slowest weapon, and auto-attack for a minute.
If the proc rate on hits is virtually 100%, try again with the next slowest weapon.
Repeat until you start seeing missed proc opportunities.

PPM = 60.0 / weapon_swing_time

To determine the affect of Haste:
Step back to the fastest weapon that still gave 100% proc rates.
Auto-attack while under Bloodlust/Heroism.
If proc rate is still 100% then we know it is unaffected by Haste.
If proc rate drops, then we know we need to use actual swing time.

Specials are a bit trickier....... There are several categories:
(1) Spell (2-roll system)
(2) Attack (1-roll system) that requires weapon and does weapon damage
(3) Attack (1-roll system) that requires weapon but does no weapon damage
(4) Attack (1-roll system) that does not require a weapon

Roywyn feels pretty confident that #1 is a flat percentage

Redcape has shown anecdotally that HoW (an example of #4) does not proc JoW. Perhaps actions that get evaluated as "attacks" but do not require weapons cannot proc Jow.....

A Shaman using Stormstrike and a variety of different speed weapons could test #2.

There are some Hunter abilities that could test #3.

In SimulationCraft we have been leaning towards:
#1: Flat percentage (50%)
#2/#3: PPM based upon base weapon swing time
#4: Cannot proc

Auto-attacks are PPM based and normalized with Haste, so the actual swing time is used as opposed to the base weapon swing time.

Any help confirming/disproving this would be most appreciated.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

sjogren

I just conducted another small test, standing out of melee range of a practice dummy and just judged wisdom over and over. With my 3.8s 2h axe I got 37 procs out of 85 judgements. That's scary-close to 43% (the magic 1.5/3.5) but then I equipped a 2.4s (iirc) 1h sword and only got 17 procs from 67 judgements, which is only 25%. Could be coincidence, random is random etc, but that's a pretty large difference in proc chance. Both results correspond fairly well with 6-7 ppm though, which is about half of what I got for my autoshot on my hunter. Coincidence?

 

Durinix

Hi, this is my first contribution, been lurking for ages and decided to help out. I did a test with a range of weapons. I was using Seal of Justice and judging every 18-19 seconds. Unfortunately, my methodology was probably wrong in that I needed to get someone else to do either the auto attacking or judging because it seems that the two have a different mechanic. Fortunately, JotW returns mana at the same time that JoW does, so it's possible to decouple the two. I also had a mage spam spells at the dummy for a while while I just judged. While they were doing that I was judging on cooldown. The mage had removed all their haste gear but still had talented haste. The cast speed is listed beside each spell. On to the data.

This takes the number of attacks that can proc JoW (both swings and judgements)

1.9 speed weapon
198 Attacks, 89 ticks
Wow Web Stats

2.0 speed weapon
250 Attacks, 120 ticks
Wow Web Stats

2.4 speed weapon
247 Attacks, 151 ticks
Wow Web Stats

3.1 speed weapon
243 Attacks, 178 ticks
Wow Web Stats

3.6 speed weapon
177 Attacks, 148 ticks
Wow Web Stats

4.0 speed weapon
219 attacks, 194
Wow Web Stats

scorch @ 1.42s
142 attacks, 49 ticks
Judgement 7s cd
30 attacks, 11 ticks
Wow Web Stats

fireball @ 3.3s
133 attacks, 112 ticks
Judgement 7s cd
50 attacks, 23 ticks
Wow Web Stats


Browsing the log file for the 4.0 weapon swing, I found that JoW proc'd on every melee swing and the misses were from judgements.
This meant that the judgement portion was
38 attacks, 13 ticks.

Browsing the log file for the 3.6 weapon swing found a swing which did not proc JoW.

Grabbing out my stunherald just before shutdown, using the same methodology, i found that JoW didn't proc on the second melee attack.
Wow Web Stats

All I can say for certain is that JoW is at least a 15 ppm and no more than 15.78 ppm for melee attacks.

As for the spell attacks being a 50% chance to proc. There's a 0.00000007% chance of getting data that is a worse fit than what I observed (chi-squared test). If you calculate observed ppm for scorch and fireball for this data, you find values around 15 ppm. My guess is that spells are calculated using a ppm based on cast time. A way to test this is with a pryo spamming mage, it should have a 100% proc rate if it's a ppm based chance. If that's the case, then it's likely that an instant cast spell is calculated like a 1.5 sec cast spell.

 

dedmonwakeen

JoW is a great place to start contributing!

I'm having trouble understanding the Judgement data. Does it correlate to a 1.5sec spell in a 15ppm system?

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

Durinix

Using the data that is listed in the thread so far on judgements:

Doing a chi-squared test with the hypothesis that it's a 15ppm using a 1.5 sec cast gives a 33.9% chance of getting data that is a worse fit.

Doing a chi-squared test with the hypothesis that it's a 42.86% chance (1.5/3.5) gives a 21.19% chance of getting data that is a worse fit.

Doing a chi-squared test with the hypothesis that it's a 50% chance gives a 1.77% chance of getting data that is a worse fit.

End result: JoW doesn't have a 50% chance to proc from judgements. Need more data to make a call on the other two. A lot more data. As long as there's 25+ attacks in a sample, i can use it. Less than that and some of the assumptions that are made in the test are not valid.

My guess is that it is a 1.5 s spell in a 15 ppm system. So far it's the most likely outcome but I don't have enough data to support that guess yet.

Edit:
I'd say that spells use a 15 ppm system as that is what the fireball and scorch testing seems to indicate but a) need more data from different spell cast times and b) I'd like to see the test done with pryoblast before being certain.

Then there's the whole question of haste.

 

Durinix

New set of data for judgement. Wow Web Stats

Summary. 381 judges 150 JoW procs.

Using this data, the chi-squared tests give:

43% chance of worse data for 15 ppm

22.7% chance of worse data for 1.5/3.5

0.097% chance of worse data for 50% flat proc.

Absolutely dead certain that JoW doesn't have a 50% proc rate (1.77% meant that it was reasonable to reject it, 0.097% means it's absolutely rejected).

Still don't have enough data to reject either of the other theories using a chi-squared test.

I did notice a problem. Occassionally, JoW double procs. It happens both when Judgement crits and doesn't crit (seems to happen more when judgements don't crit but that probably because my testing was with 11% tooltip crit). This makes it unlikely that Righteous Vengeance was the cause as it only procs off crits. This event occured 17 times.

I'd say that it's very likely that this is a bug (i'm going to report it on the official forums). If this is a bug then all this data is corrupted and it is most certainly a 15 ppm (1.5/3.5 gets rejected just by removing the additional procs from the latest data only).

So yes. I'm basically certain that JoW is meant to be a 15 ppm for melee and spells with instant casts calculated as 1.5 second casts. What it currently is is a little higher than that because of (in my opinion) a bug.

 

sjogren

Thank you so much for your testing (and your statistics!) Dedmon has implemented the 15 ppm model in simcraft and I'd have to say that the hunter JoW numbers look much more realistic now.

 

Durinix

Cool, any other paladin mechanics I can help out with for simcraft?

 

dedmonwakeen

Thanks!

Paladins are next on the list for support in SimulationCraft....... but 3.1 excitement has sidetracked that for a while. I hope to get to it soon.

Once that starts up, you'll see me trolling the Paladin forums regularly for the nitty-gritty details.

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft

 

sjogren

I actually started tinkering with some retribution stuff the other day when I was bored. I have limited internet access at the moment but I hope to have some basic stuff to commit in a few days.

 

Raelyssa

I remember seeing somewhere earlier on this forum someone stating that they had seen multiple procs of JoW and JoL from one judgment..

I'm asking this here because this seems the most logical thread to put it in. I've noticed this myself, and was wondering if anyone had figured out why it does this. I notice it most when I judge light, as I usually end up being the only holy paladin in the raid, and sometimes judge light to help with healing on some fights(Loatheb for example), and Ive noticed up to triple procs.

 

ElginRoko

My interpretation has always been that each one of damage, applying the debuff and applying heart of the crusader can proc the buff, i've never tried anything comparable to test this thoroughly though.

For insurance reasons. Yes. That, and for freedom.

 

Raelyssa

I could test this, but I am unsure of how to go about doing it. If you could give some suggestions as to how, I can see what I can do. Would a controlled test on the dummy work? I could judge x amount of times to get a good sample size, and see what percentage of them procs multiples. I have two holy specs, one is a holy/prot damage soak and one is a holy/ret max crit build. If it does proc off each debuff and the judge itself, I would see two procs on the prot build, and three on the ret build.

Do you think that would work?

 

Lytbringer

Hi all I am sure one of you has the answer to the following, which for my life I can't figure out:

Before Dual Spec came bout I was a Healadin, I did not have a problem when doing quests etc. to get mana back by simply whacking anything, even a skunk..
After dual spec I can do it with either ret or heal However here is where my concern is and I hope it is easy (and that I do not feel like much of a tard after)
As we are trying to lvl lowbies we bring my MIL in for heals on her Pally (at the time of first attempt was 72) Running thru Mara I was trying to get her to use SoV and as often as available to use JoW- but she refused and we all got into an argument over it-
She insisted that she would not ever get mana restored like I would with JoW so she used (as a holy tank) SoW ....

Today we ran UB currently she is 74, still holy... and the same thing she had to keep stopping to drink so the argument almost began when hubby said for us to go on each others toons so she could see what I could do with a Heladin

We did just that and Grrrrr she was right her JoW never returns mana from ANY whack.... so we looked over points and w/e else and I am left clueless. I know it is not from glyphs since my son should me how to get the magnificent mana return long before glyphs were announced. Only Thing she did read was in combat log it says that (on my toon) 'Lytbringer gained ### from Judgement of the Wise' and that was in Holy spec, not ret, so there was not even points there- to even get there to that Judgement you would need a minimum of 31 points...


If any one at all knows how to resolve this I would appreciate it so very much (you can put me down but try not to be too harsh )

TY

Lyt

 

sno

This should have been posted in Paladin: Simple Questions/Simple Answers
As a retri paladin you usually have the talent Judgement of the Wise witch will instantly grant you 25% of your base mana when you judge something.
As a holy paladin, however, you usually don't have that talent witch means that to get mana back you actually have to go up and hit the mob so that either Seal of Wisdom or Judgement of Wisdom can procc and for best result you should have both and then go hit the mob for a while with your weapon and hope you get lots of proccs.

I didn't get the last part of your post though, if she judge a mob and go up ahd hit it, won't JoW ever procc? Or do you mean that the judement it self doesn't return any mana? And did you say that she played on your character with a holy specc and still got mana from Judgement of the Wise?

 

Lytbringer

Thank you for your reply and I apologize for wrong section posting.

To answer where I may have confused you- she as holy pally does not ever get the big mana return off of JoW only the small chance % And yes, on my pally as holy, Unpointed in the JoWise I DO still get the whopping 1000+mana return also the ticks.
Perhaps this is nothing more than a glitch in the system,
Again I thank you for your response.

Lyt

 

Lenirolá

please delete, found an answer in another section