Rawr Retribution Model - Page 13

Neraya · 10/21/09, 12:03 PM

Looks like a right type approach to me.

Do bear in mind that 'on use' trinkets with a 2Min cd tend to be undervalued as rawr doesn't model you using those trinkets combined with AW, pot and you possibly trying to sync it up with other procs like DMC:G, berserk, heroism...

Grigorim · 10/21/09, 12:10 PM

Does this seem like a reasonable way to peg some approximation of the value of the on-use effect to evaluate on Rawr (i.e., I can manually modify the items to be 83 expertise plus either 152AP or 177AP, respectively, for the regular and heroic version of the trinkets, when evaluating them). Thoughts?

The Vengeance trinkets have a use effect listed, but it doesn't do anything. What I did was an average uptime calculation like you are suggesting (that is, average uptime during the 20 sec use period), then edited the use effect to just be a 20 sec, 2 min CD, 1050 ap (I have the heroic version). But even taking into account the expertise, I still have DMC pull ahead.

gmedina · 10/21/09, 1:40 PM

Don't forget that you can also easily pop wings during the DMC:G and Death's Verdict procs so that the difference of AW is really not significant with regard to the on use part.

Neraya · 10/22/09, 4:19 AM

Originally Posted by gmedina

Don't forget that you can also easily pop wings during the DMC:G and Death's Verdict procs so that the difference of AW is really not significant with regard to the on use part.

True, but any fight that has parts where you need to temporarily max out the dps as much as you can. XT-002 heart phase, Mimiron P3 when he's down, twins shield (don't use AW) ... having your trinket prop in a controlled fashion makes a big difference.

Murphy's law dictates your DMC:G/Death's Verdict and berserk enchant wil never proc during those moments

gmedina · 10/22/09, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Neraya

True, but any fight that has parts where you need to temporarily max out the dps as much as you can. XT-002 heart phase, Mimiron P3 when he's down, twins shield (don't use AW) ... having your trinket prop in a controlled fashion makes a big difference.

Murphy's law dictates your DMC:G/Death's Verdict and berserk enchant wil never proc during those moments

Not really all you need to do, is avereage the amount of time it takes your guild to take XT down 25%(1st heart phase), in my guild that is roughly 35 seconds, which means i swap my trinkets in and out 10 secs before fight and voila controled proc during heart phase to go along with my AW.

Burning through Twins sheild isn't really that hard i usually save my AW for when i get the 100% dps bonus, and for mimiron your almost guaranteed to get a proc in the last phase at least once with the way CD's work. So if you try to plan in advance it really isn't that hard.

TheBacon · 10/22/09, 6:05 PM

Originally Posted by gmedina

Burning through Twins sheild isn't really that hard i usually save my AW for when i get the 100% dps bonus, and for mimiron your almost guaranteed to get a proc in the last phase at least once with the way CD's work. So if you try to plan in advance it really isn't that hard.

The reason why you don't use AW on the twins shield is that half your damage will go through the shield and not work towards breaking it due to Sanctified Wrath.

Neraya · 10/23/09, 5:47 AM

Indeed

Which is why I had that 'don't use AW' in my post.

@gmedina:
You can use a trinketswap before the pull. But that's still a border case simply because it happens to fall within the ICD time of the trinket.

It won't help you in the last few % burn phase, or assuring you can make the most out of a heroism. There is a very definate advantage to 'on use' trinkets over random proc trinkets. The extra proc damge you get out of the random proc trinket would need to be 'substantial' to offer a real benefit to total DPS done because you can't always count on procs to happen when they matter most (again Murphy's Law will cause it to ALWAYS proc 1 second before you need to run out of some kind of fire or the boss vanishes for a while wasting the entire ICD on it

). And while you can wait for your random proc trinket to happen, it means delaying AW, which could mean you end up with one less AW over the course of the fight, which will also be a net DPS loss.

I'm not saying all random proc trinkets are bad. Just be aware that a on use trinket (especially the 2Min CD ones) are typically much better than what rawr puts them at.

• Zurm · 10/23/09, 9:39 AM

Originally Posted by Neraya

There is a very definate advantage to 'on use' trinkets over random proc trinkets.

You should read my post in the 3.2 Ret thread here. This statement is incredibly wrong. You have almost as much control over proc trinkets, if you exercise the properly planning an due dilligence before a pull. Please, stop saying this.

gmedina · 10/23/09, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Neraya

Indeed

Which is why I had that 'don't use AW' in my post.

@gmedina:
You can use a trinketswap before the pull. But that's still a border case simply because it happens to fall within the ICD time of the trinket.

It won't help you in the last few % burn phase, or assuring you can make the most out of a heroism. There is a very definate advantage to 'on use' trinkets over random proc trinkets. The extra proc damge you get out of the random proc trinket would need to be 'substantial' to offer a real benefit to total DPS done because you can't always count on procs to happen when they matter most (again Murphy's Law will cause it to ALWAYS proc 1 second before you need to run out of some kind of fire or the boss vanishes for a while wasting the entire ICD on it

). And while you can wait for your random proc trinket to happen, it means delaying AW, which could mean you end up with one less AW over the course of the fight, which will also be a net DPS loss.

I'm not saying all random proc trinkets are bad. Just be aware that a on use trinket (especially the 2Min CD ones) are typically much better than what rawr puts them at.

I strenously disagree here. Yes it does happen that sporadically after they proc and i pop wings ill need to get out of fire or the boss vanashies, but the other side of the coin that on use trinkets don't in anyway solve this problem, because as you quote Murphy's Law says that as soon as you pop the trinket w/AW, you will need to run out of fire or the boss will vanish completly wasting your AW.

On use trinkets are not bad, it is just that you can accomplish the same thing with on proc trinkets such as DMC:G b/c you know when they are going to proc and simply plan around it. A little advance thought will easily allow you use your AW in conjuction with the PROC. This being the case, the on use portion of a trinket isn't really that much valuable, this is ofcourse for PVE which you know how the fight will progress and know when you want the proc. In pvp there is no way to determine the course of the fight so this kind of advance planning is really not applicable.

Neraya · 10/23/09, 5:06 PM

Just to clarify, since it seems to have caused a bit of a stir. I never said proc trinkets are bad. I just said that on use trinkets offer an advantage in some fights. I was going off the assumption when comparing 2 trinkets where the averaged out proc value was "similar". But as zurm was kind enough to point out, the random proc ones typically have higher proc values than the on use ones.

Adamson · 11/16/09, 11:44 PM

Looking at my obtainable gear setup for getting ready for icecrown.

I'm assuming 4/5 Hard mode on farm for 25-man toc and I'm building my ideal set in rawr. I'm having a little trouble deciding whether rawr is accuurate on my top2 choices for itemization. The spreadsheet analyzer/tool claims the Cuirass of Calamitous Fate is best by a far margin, ~18dps

One is

Cuirass of Calamitous Fate [Cuirass of Calamitous Fate]

137 agility
3 sockets
86 crit rating
102 haste
172 ap

Breastplate of Cruel Intent [Breastplate of Cruel Intent]
86 agility
80 intellect
3 sockets
86 crit
80 haste
274 ap

I just find it hard to believe 51 agility and 22 haste outweigh 102ap and for the elitists, a tad of spell crit for exorcism.

Anyone care to add thoughts, criticisms, or anything to make sense of my logic be it flawed or true?

Glutton · 11/17/09, 12:28 AM

Mail chest:
Crit: 53.74%
Melee Haste: 42.76%
AP: 7904

Leather chest:
Crit: 54.82% (+1.08%)
Melee Haste: 43.84% (+1.08%)
AP: 7792 (-112 AP)

You'd probably get the best explanation by using SimulationCraft to graph the DPS per point of haste, crit, and AP using our BiS. Basically some crit (~49.5828 crit rating equivalents) and a small additional amount of haste is worth more per point than a moderate amount of AP.

Capstone · 11/17/09, 6:49 AM

The simpler answer is that 2pc T9 makes crit pretty strong, hence why the agi outweighs the ap.

There is a dropdown option in Rawr for Relative Stat Values, if you want to take a look at the individual stat weights themselves.

Illini · 11/25/09, 8:45 PM

Deleted as I placed this in the wrong forum

damer · 11/29/09, 1:13 PM

Hi All,

I ma a bit confused. I have won the executionior malice l245. And according to raw the dragon queen favor from eoe25 is actually better buy a few points and its just 226.

How trust worthy is rawr in this regard?

Bazookatooth · 11/30/09, 12:56 AM

Originally Posted by damer

Hi All,

I ma a bit confused. I have won the executionior malice l245. And according to raw the dragon queen favor from eoe25 is actually better buy a few points and its just 226.

How trust worthy is rawr in this regard?

Always consider that rawr makes dynamic suggestions. What this means is that, while the Executioner's Vice is probably a better item, you may be at or over hit cap already - making the Hit itemization on the Executioner's worthless (mostly).

If you were to take a naked character in Rawr and compare the two necks, the Executioner's Vice should always win.

HamSlammer · 12/03/09, 4:07 AM

How do you create a new or edit an existing set bonus? I'm trying to get an idea in which fashion I should progress from my current gear to T10 and I'm a bit stuck.

Saltycracker · 12/03/09, 6:50 PM

Originally Posted by HamSlammer

How do you create a new or edit an existing set bonus? I'm trying to get an idea in which fashion I should progress from my current gear to T10 and I'm a bit stuck.

Go check the Buffcache.xml file. The pally t10 tank setup in there, so you can possibly duplicate that. All I can think of is lowering the effective cooldown on DS by about 40% (I think I read that number somewhere that we will be using DS 40% more)

Trakor · 12/04/09, 5:34 AM

Yeah, any updates on Ret Rawr for 3.3? A lot of people are expecting 3.3 to go live on next maintanance day.

• Zurm · 12/04/09, 9:30 AM

Originally Posted by Trakor

Yeah, any updates on Ret Rawr for 3.3? A lot of people are expecting 3.3 to go live on next maintanance day.

None of our core mechanics changed... the only thing that still needs work is the modeling of the 2pc t10 bonus.

Endoscient · 12/06/09, 3:22 PM

Originally Posted by Trakor

Yeah, any updates on Ret Rawr for 3.3? A lot of people are expecting 3.3 to go live on next maintanance day.

Updates for Ret have been much slower/nonexistant since I quit WoW a few months back. I will try to get the retribution specific changes in before 3.3. Its just the two tier 10 set bonuses and the new libram, correct? I also need to update support for some trinket procs, but that will come later.

On that note, if anyone wants to take over maintaining the Retribution model, that would be better for me and the model itself. Contact me if you are interested (requires knowledge of C#).

Glutton · 12/06/09, 5:02 PM

This would apply to all 2H melee DPS, but the weapon proc for Bryntroll, the Bone Arbiter also needs to be added. For Retribution it has a 15% chance to proc an average of 2250 shadow damage on CS, DS (non AOE target), Judgement, melee, and refreshing the SoV stack (so two chances to proc on one melee hit). The proc can't crit, uses spell hit, and its damage is modified by Crusade, Sanctified Retribution, Sense Undead, and Ebon Plaguebringer.

Exemplar · 12/07/09, 9:45 AM

Originally Posted by Glutton

This would apply to all 2H melee DPS, but the weapon proc for Bryntroll, the Bone Arbiter also needs to be added. For Retribution it has a 15% chance to proc an average of 2250 shadow damage on CS, DS (non AOE target), Judgement, melee, and refreshing the SoV stack (so two chances to proc on one melee hit). The proc can't crit, uses spell hit, and its damage is modified by Crusade, Sanctified Retribution, Sense Undead, and Ebon Plaguebringer.

Is its damage not also modified by Vengeance?

Edit: No reason for a 2nd post - thanks Tobrexa. I got too focused on all our damage normally being physical and holy that I forgot Vengeance was so "narrow" in focus.

Tobrexa · 12/07/09, 10:11 AM

Last I looked, Vengeance modified Holy and Physical Damage alone... Sanctified Wrath on the other hand increases overall damage, I think.

Endoscient · 12/08/09, 7:09 PM

I implemented 2T10/410 and the new libram, but sadly I didn't do it in time for the 2.3.0 release. You will have to wait for the next version for them, in the mean time I will try to get some trinket/weapon implemented.