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Old 12/16/09, 9:16 AM   #391
cyrose
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
Originally Posted by Baklava09 View Post
I picked up the revered Ashen Verdict ring tonight and it seems the proc rate is a lot higher than 4%. It pretty much procs off cooldown and can be lined up with trinkets if you enjoy using internal cooldowns with avenging wrath. I will keep testing it, but so far it seems pretty amazing.

The buff is called "Frostforged Champion"
I've got some different results from testing the ring.
I can confirm the 1 min ICD. It can proc on melee swings, CS, DS and J.
The proc rate however seems really low. Sometimes it procs right at the 1 min mark, most of the time it procs within 30 seconds, and a few times I've had more than 2 minutes between procs.

Sure, it's not a trinket but I the inconsistency is quite a disappointment.

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Old 12/16/09, 11:15 AM   #392
Neraya
Banned
 
Human Paladin
 
Khadgar (EU)
Originally Posted by Exemplar View Post
Four situations. Latency varies, assume reaction time is 200ms.
The lag/reaction time doesn't matter of procs happening from abilities. Since GCD is more than long enough to cover any kind of normal lag and human reaction times by the time you can do your next ability. Moreover, Redcape's 'friend' with the T10 set seems to have already confirmed my initial assumption that the proc would happen off melee white swings only, which if true, makes this point entirely moot anyway.

So the only difference it will make is procs happening off autoattacks near the moment you would hit an ability.

Going by that...
Situation One: Moot, unless procs can happen of abilities.

Situation Two: I was not suggesting that waiting is a good thing. However, there is a clear difference between.
The human presses Cons, while the 'robot' can still press DS instead. They both have the same lag, but the human suffers an extra penalty.
At this particular moment in time it means hitting DS over Cons. An ability that does more damage. It would be naive to say now "oh but the human will just hit DS next then GCD", but this isn't necessarily so, if DS is first in the priority then yes. If something else is higher in the priority then that might be next.
In any case, the user pressing Cons, and the robot pressing DS do change the entire stream of abilities being hit after it. How much of a DPS difference does it make ? Probably not a whole lot, but it is there. Human reaction on top of lag made the difference.
Even more lag and even slower human reactions will increase the likelyhood of missing the DS proc at the earliest possible time.



Situation three: Correct, but since you react in time, it makes no difference.

Situation four:
Again correct but... The right approach for the lagging user would be to hit Cons (since waiting is bad). The lagging robot would've hit DS. Again, a difference between the human and the "robotic" situation. Prooving that the simple delay isn't entirely modelling things right. You could increase the delay to compensate, but then you incur a delay on EVERY ability you hit rather than just the few times a melee swing happens a split second before you'd hit an ability.



It's true GCD is there to help minimize the effects of lag. I already pointed that out in my post, the server even compensates by accepting the next button before the GCD is really over (it doesn't execute the ability early, it just accepts and queues it for when the GCD is over).
But with "react to random proc", lag and reaction are effective factors.


It's not going to be a huge difference in DPS. The melee swing needs to be close to the end of a GCD to begin with, and the DPS difference between various abilities isn't that big on single target. On multitargets, getting that few more DS in over something else might make a bigger difference.
The above shows the extra human reaction on top of the lag/delay does make a difference. You hit something else instead of DS, and this changes the rest of the FCFS sequence after it.
If easy to do, maybe give it a try in a debug/test build of rawr to see in what order of difference the DPS is?

Last edited by Neraya : 12/16/09 at 11:23 AM.

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Old 12/16/09, 2:56 PM   #393
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by Neraya View Post
The above shows the extra human reaction on top of the lag/delay does make a difference. You hit something else instead of DS, and this changes the rest of the FCFS sequence after it.
If easy to do, maybe give it a try in a debug/test build of rawr to see in what order of difference the DPS is?
If you simply model GCD + latency + human reaction time your model will be less accurate than present, not more. Everything but the edge-case is negatively impacted, which does not happen in actual practice. Neither of us are arguing to do this.

Any proc at any time potentially alters the entire remaining sequence. As we've both said, changing the seed will easily display this. Taking the time and effort to program a special situation to forcibly change/not-change the sequence doesn't seem worth it.

The current GCD + delay (whether it's just latency, just human reaction, or both) seems the simplest system that has a large degree of accuracy. I simply like the term "delay" as its generic nature allows it to be as inclusive as desired. Latency has a very specific definition.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 12/16/09, 5:54 PM   #394
Babathong
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Alterac Mountains
I downloaded the new Rawr mutliplte times and this is one of a few different types of errors I get. This one happens before the application will even open itself. Other times I will try to load from armory and get another bug message and then the application will just lock up. To get out of Rawr I have to ctrl-alt-del, task manager.

Anybody have any insight as to why this might be happening, I had no problems on past versions of Rawr and just cant seem to get this one working. Error message below.




Access to the path 'C:\Program Files (x86)\Rawr v2.3.2\Data\RetRotations.xml' is denied.



at System.IO.__Error.WinIOError(Int32 errorCode, String maybeFullPath)

at System.IO.FileStream.Init(String path, FileMode mode, FileAccess access, Int32 rights, Boolean useRights, FileShare share, Int32 bufferSize, FileOptions options, SECURITY_ATTRIBUTES secAttrs, String msgPath, Boolean bFromProxy)

at System.IO.FileStream..ctor(String path, FileMode mode, FileAccess access, FileShare share, Int32 bufferSize, FileOptions options, String msgPath, Boolean bFromProxy)

at System.IO.FileStream..ctor(String path, FileMode mode, FileAccess access, FileShare share, Int32 bufferSize, FileOptions options)

at System.IO.StreamWriter..ctor(String path, Boolean append, Encoding encoding, Int32 bufferSize)

at System.IO.StreamWriter..ctor(String path, Boolean append, Encoding encoding)

at Rawr.Retribution.RotationSimulator.SaveDictionary(SerializableDictionary`2 sols)

at Rawr.Retribution.RotationSimulator.SimulateRotation(RotationParameters rot)

at Rawr.Retribution.Simulator..ctor(CombatStats combats)

at Rawr.Retribution.CalculationsRetribution.GetCharacterStats(Character character, Item additionalItem, Boolean computeAverageStats)

at Rawr.Retribution.CalculationsRetribution.GetCharacterCalculations(Character character, Item additionalItem, Boolean referenceCalculation, Boolean significantChange, Boolean needsDisplayCalculations)

at Rawr.Calculations.GetCharacterCalculations(Character character, Item additionalItem, Boolean referenceCalculation, Boolean significantChange, Boolean needsDisplayCalculations)

at Rawr.FormMain._character_ItemsChanged(Object sender, EventArgs e)

at Rawr.FormMain.set_Character(Character value)

at Rawr.FormMain.Calculations_ModelChanged(Object sender, EventArgs e)

at Rawr.FormMain..ctor()

at Rawr.Program.Main()
---------------------------
OK
---------------------------

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Old 12/16/09, 6:38 PM   #395
Endoscient
King Hippo
 
Goblin Shaman
 
Illidan
Originally Posted by Babathong View Post
I downloaded the new Rawr mutliplte times and this is one of a few different types of errors I get. This one happens before the application will even open itself. Other times I will try to load from armory and get another bug message and then the application will just lock up. To get out of Rawr I have to ctrl-alt-del, task manager.

...
Rawr is unable to load/save the cache of previously computed rotations. Try moving your Rawr folder to your My Documents directory, or run Rawr as administrator. For next version I will change it so if that is the case it will still run properly.


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Old 12/17/09, 8:42 AM   #396
gmedina
Banned
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Gnomeregan
While your looking at the above im having an odd issue with the rotation selector. When i choose different rotations the dps listed doesn't change, even when it can calculate it correctly.

Situation:

Have only standard rotation shows dps at 9k
add now rotation showing DS first, dps is at 10k

Select standard rotation, dps still at 10k, select new DS rotation, still at 10, delete new rotation, dps listed drops to 9k.

P.S. Also there is some conversation going on 3.3 thread regarding the new rotation not being an actual increase, do you know how yours differes from theirs and how yours is showing more dps?

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Old 12/17/09, 9:03 AM   #397
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by gmedina View Post
P.S. Also there is some conversation going on 3.3 thread regarding the new rotation not being an actual increase, do you know how yours differes from theirs and how yours is showing more dps?
I believe (but could be wrong) that the last Rawr release was under the "all melee special attacks can reset DS" theory, which has been disproved. Only autoattacks reset DS, so there are fewer resets, thus there is no need to increase the priority for DS to avoid "lost procs."

I do not doubt that Ermad will have this updated in the next release.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 12/17/09, 9:44 AM   #398
safetypro
Glass Joe
 
safetypro's Avatar
 
Human Paladin
 
Mok'Nathal
I'm a bit confused about the Dodge Chance stats.

Rawr has me pegged at 0% with 7.06% Expertise (125 Rating).
The Retribution model says to aim for 214 Expertise rating, 26 expertise or 6.5%.
Considering I am a human using a sword I need to aim for 189 Experience Rating or 23 Expertise.

How can Rawr say I'm at 0% dodge chance when I have not reached the cap of 189? Please explain which stat I should be aiming for.

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Old 12/17/09, 10:01 AM   #399
Exemplar
Bald Bull
 
Human Paladin
 
Scarlet Crusade
Originally Posted by safetypro View Post
I'm a bit confused about the Dodge Chance stats.

Rawr has me pegged at 0% with 7.06% Expertise (125 Rating).
The Retribution model says to aim for 214 Expertise rating, 26 expertise or 6.5%.
Considering I am a human using a sword I need to aim for 189 Experience Rating or 23 Expertise.

How can Rawr say I'm at 0% dodge chance when I have not reached the cap of 189? Please explain which stat I should be aiming for.
125 rating is a bit over 15 expertise.
Sword Mastery is 3 expertise.
[Glyph of Seal of Vengeance] is 10 expertise.

Total: 28 expertise

This is over the amount required to remove dodge from your target.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

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Old 12/17/09, 10:08 AM   #400
Glutton
King Hippo
 
Glutton's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Kalecgos
Originally Posted by Exemplar View Post
I believe (but could be wrong) that the last Rawr release was under the "all melee special attacks can reset DS" theory, which has been disproved. Only autoattacks reset DS, so there are fewer resets, thus there is no need to increase the priority for DS to avoid "lost procs."

I do not doubt that Ermad will have this updated in the next release.
That seems to be the case. In Rawr the 2P T10 is worth 700 DPS. Redscape has updated his model and it's coming out as a bit less than 400 DPS.

Although neither models 2P T10's weird interaction with Seal of Command that has been noted by another poster. The two cleaves from a white hit appear to act as additional opportunities to refresh DS. The cleaves from yellow hits do not display the same behavior.

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Old 12/17/09, 2:48 PM   #401
Baklava09
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Maelstrom
This might be a little offtopic but I was curious what Rawr models as a physical attack versus melee attack for the retribution model.

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Old 12/17/09, 11:08 PM   #402
Endoscient
King Hippo
 
Goblin Shaman
 
Illidan
Originally Posted by gmedina View Post
While your looking at the above im having an odd issue with the rotation selector. When i choose different rotations the dps listed doesn't change, even when it can calculate it correctly.

Situation:

Have only standard rotation shows dps at 9k
add now rotation showing DS first, dps is at 10k

Select standard rotation, dps still at 10k, select new DS rotation, still at 10, delete new rotation, dps listed drops to 9k.
What rotation is selected just changes what rotation you are editing with the list box. Rawr will compute how much dps you do with each entered rotation, and then automatically chose the one that does the most dps. This was added to give a more accurate evaluation of things that change what rotation you use.

Yea, 2T10 is currently modelled as being able to proc from CS/Judge. I'll remove that once I get back, currently posting from my phone. . edit: I was able to get someone else to make this simple fix for me, so this change will be in for 2.3.3 which should come out today or tomorrow.

Hammer of Wrath is a physical attack and not a ranged attack. Judgement used to also be a ranged attack, but was changed to melee in 3.2. I will double check to make sure Judgement is working as a melee attack when I get back. Since that change happened right around when I quit, so it might have been lost in the fray.

Last edited by Endoscient : 12/17/09 at 11:22 PM.


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Old 12/18/09, 8:47 AM   #403
Jamora
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Priest
 
Die Aldor (EU)
The 2 piece T10 bonus seems to be bugged. RAWR 2.3.3 claims that it is a DPS decrease(of about 40 dps), which is certainly not true.

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Old 12/18/09, 11:00 AM   #404
cremor
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Blackmoore (EU)
Originally Posted by cremor View Post
Thanks for adding it. But I don't think it's working correctly.
Both iLvl versions only show 100 DPS for me (I can use all the expertise), they shouldn't be identical, right?

If I edit the proc to be a static 1075 AP 16 Sec / 2 Min (assuming 4 Sec ramp up time and ignoring all AP during that), it goes up to 230 DPS for me.
Sorry for bump, but since the proc is still bugged in 2.3.3, I'd like to make sure you haven't missed my post.

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Old 12/18/09, 12:07 PM   #405
Kellendros
Glass Joe
 
Kellendros's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Warsong
Is it just me, or there are several plate items missing in this new version? wich were not missing in the last one by the way.

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