Rawr Retribution Model - Page 3

Endoscient · 04/14/09, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by TheBacon

Sorry to ask what probably is a stupid question, but I am going to anyways. If I have a Mac am I just s.o.l. with rawr?

You can try using mono, but its flaky at best with Rawr. If you have a new Intel mac, your best bet is to dual boot or use a virtual copy of windows (with Parallels or VM Ware Fusion) and run it like that.

Endoscient · 04/14/09, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Paul

I'm still figuring it all out and I'm about positive I don't have a lot of things configured properly, but I do notice that a lot of the items currently only on PTR (seemingly about to be Live according to MMO-Champ) don't load to PTR when using the "Open in Wowhead" option. They load to the live website and get an error, of course.

Just kind of annoying to manually enter in the PTR stuff.

Also, I keep getting errors when trying to update the item database from Wowhead.

I noticed in this thread you had said something about the Deadly Glad libram being properly assessed in this version, but I had to manually add both it and the Venture Co Libram. Loading from the PTR worked, but for the Venture Co Libram I had to manually change the DS Crit to DS damage, anyway.

Does Rawr load from PTR Wowhead as well as Live or only live when using the Update Item Cache option? It seems like it works when adding items from ptr manually in the item options.

I'm having a little trouble with the new rotation options and was hoping someone could direct me as to how to make it as accurate as possible (or if it's already accurate as it can be).

I'm thinking it's possible rotations could change slightly depending on the set of gear, but can't imagine that it would be too different without being completely in spell damage gear or something. Maybe Libram dependent to some extent?

Regardless of whether I choose Undead or Humanoid/Elemental for the target, Crusader Strike > Judgement > HoW > DS > Exorcism > Consecrate seems to give me the best DPS in Ulduar gear (the ones in the item database at least) with the Deadly Glad Libram of Fortitude. It doesn't seem to matter if either Judgement or HoW comes first.

Also, does the Optimizer change rotations at all?

I don't seem to see a DPS increase with spell crit (Winter's Chill, Moonkin Form, probably Focus Magic, too). Wondering if Exorcism works with melee crit now, instead.

Is there a chance you could add Holy Wrath into the rotation? I rarely work it in, but somewhat often everything but HW is on CD.

And this is probably not the right topic, but I'd prefer to just ask real quick if Avoidance and Mitigation could be separated in the Prot module.

Thanks for making such a great tool, guys!

1st edit: Optimizer is seemingly inable to equip the best set of gear with my current options. The gearset I've found is 6726 DPS in a 5 minute fight with the rotation I said above and .05 wait. Optimizer is only finding a maximum of ~6670.

I noticed you had mentioned something about expertise and hit changes and wondering if that has anything to do with it.

Loading item data from PTR Wowhead isn't perfect, but it was mainly a stopgap solution for while the patch was on PTRs, and wasn't fully implemented and tested. The patch is coming out today, so it shouldn't matter anymore anyway.

It is possible for the best rotation to change with gear, which is the reason there is a rotation simulator. No, the optimizer doesn't change the rotation at all. One thing I want to add in the future is to be able to define multiple rotations, and compute how much dps they each do and use the highest one.

If spell crit is having no value, that means you are fighting against a demon/undead mob which your only spell has a 100% crit rate by default.

I do no work on the prot module anymore, so this isn't to place to talk about that. Your best bet would to be to go over to the Rawr Codeplex Discussions.

For the item set you said is higher then the optimizer found, are you sure every item that you are using is marked as available? If so, please post the issue in the main Rawr EJ thread, or over at Codeplex. Remember to ALWAYS include character files when reporting possible issues, we can do MUCH more to help you when you do.

Cavemanz · 04/14/09, 11:48 AM

Holy Wrath dont have a 100% critrate vs undeads/demons afaik. Although I doubt spellcrit on an ability with a 30sec cd is worth gearing for ;p

bulletsux · 04/14/09, 11:58 AM

I just downloaded the new version today, and I found something odd, that the 2pc and 4pc in the buffs tab doesn't check off if you add T8 pieces. On the other hand, using T7, the set bonus boxes are checked. I'm wondering if anyone else is getting this as well?

Endoscient · 04/14/09, 1:16 PM

Originally Posted by bulletsux

I just downloaded the new version today, and I found something odd, that the 2pc and 4pc in the buffs tab doesn't check off if you add T8 pieces. On the other hand, using T7, the set bonus boxes are checked. I'm wondering if anyone else is getting this as well?

For some reason the default item cache included didn't properly set the set names for Tier 8-25. To fix this you will have to edit each of the T8 pieces and in the set name field put in "Aegis Battlegear" instead of "Conqueror's Aegis Battlegear". I will get this fixed for next release.

Originally Posted by Cavemanz

Holy Wrath dont have a 100% critrate vs undeads/demons afaik. Although I doubt spellcrit on an ability with a 30sec cd is worth gearing for ;p

I was talking about Exorcism. Holy Wrath isn't modeled at all currently, I plan to add this in the future though.

Cavemanz · 04/14/09, 3:00 PM

With my gear, 4pc t7 is currently rated at about 15 dps, while 2pc is rated at 35 dps. Is this correct with the 3.1 changes? I know judgement damage has been nerfed, it just seemed a bit strange that the 2pc would be alot better than 4pc.

Endoscient · 04/14/09, 3:06 PM

Originally Posted by Cavemanz

With my gear, 4pc t7 is currently rated at about 15 dps, while 2pc is rated at 35 dps. Is this correct with the 3.1 changes? I know judgement damage has been nerfed, it just seemed a bit strange that the 2pc would be alot better than 4pc.

The value of 4t7 varies a lot with what rotation you are using, with our highest dps rotation (with or without 4t7) it doesn't add much. 4 piece doesn't end up adding a lot since a lot of our dps has shifted off of Judgment to other abilities, it was 30-40% and now it is around 10-15% of our dps. A 7 second CD Judgment doesn't fit it well with our other cooldowns, so what you give up to gain the more Judgement time isn't much of an increase.

Paul · 04/14/09, 5:53 PM

I'm having problems loading any module other than the default Night Elf Druid in Bear (just by changing the drop-down menu options, not by loading a profile. I believe armory is down, so that option is out).

EDIT: Finally got in and loaded my profile from b6 of 2.2. Default is now the Retribution module, however loading time and errors during loading still persist.

I tried extracting to the desktop, but my attempts to change the "Read only" option in the folder fail with no error. It just reverts to read only, anyway. Not a check mark, but a filled blue square (Vista x64).

I recall the optimizer having problems with gems when I messed with it last night, but that was b6 of 2.2 I think. This problem has persisted today. I noticed when loading the old profile that none of the normal gems were included in Optimizer, then went through, selecting Bold Dragon's Eye, Bold Stormjewel, Bold Scarlet Ruby, Inscribed Monarch Topaz, Etched Monarch Topaz, and Sovereign Twilight Opal. The optimizer still produced an inferior set, seemingly due to its gem-choices.

It's taking a really long time to load from the old .xml file. Should all my other .xml character files be fine with this new version, as long as I made them in 2.2?

EDIT:

(Not Responding) errors galore while Loading. Continued to get error with loading a saved image even after attempting to extract to program files, desktop, and my documents. Error appears 3-4 times after closing the first window. No idea how to unsave this image and start fresh. I've deleted the previous versions of Rawr I had downloaded, including the zip files.

Guildie friend says it loaded within 30 seconds with no issue on XP.

He hasn't used any previous version of Rawr, however. Thinking it's either an incompatibility with Vista or some kind of artifact saved somewhere on my computer from previous versions. This might explain the problems with "saved image" that I experienced prior.

edit 3: Why is it trying to load information from a "saved image?" How can I delete this saved image and start fresh?

• frmorrison · 04/14/09, 6:47 PM

I believe what is happening is Rawr is trying to open an older saved copy of your character (which seems out of date). Try deleting the old versions and start new.

If you don't know where the old versions are located, try searching your computer for Rawr profile file types.

Trakor · 04/14/09, 7:05 PM

I'm having a similar problem as the one Paul is having. I'm also using Vista 64-bit. Last night, I was able to use both the beta 2206b and 2207.

I changed a bit of the setings (gems and gear selection), added 3 or 4 items, changed a couple of trinkets, came up with the best gear setup for my current gear and a possible BiS from Ulduar.

This morning howerver, RAWR would get stuck during start up. The Loading screen would appear and nothing would happen.

I decided to install RAWR again while renaming both the old folder and the old saved files and RAWR was able to start once again (after a very long loading time --> 2 minutes???). So I tried to load my Ulduar BiS set and got an error (because one of the items were added last night, so it wasnt on the new RAWR database. Trying to load my current gear set up did work, but had to wait another 2 minutes or so.

Another thing I've done between last night and this morning was updating WoW, updating some mods and updating my graphic cards drivers/software.

Endoscient · 04/14/09, 7:28 PM

That is because of the new talents/items it is trying to download some of the icons from Armory, but it since Armory hasn't been updated yet it isn't finding them and is waiting for it to timeout. The timeout is currently way to long as well. I know it is a pain, but just let it keep running and it should eventually open. We will try get this fixed otherwise as soon as we can.

Cayse · 04/14/09, 7:56 PM

Does the way rawr calculates the value of stats contradict the fixed stat weights of the spreadsheets or is there something I'm doing wrong with it?

The only difference between the two was in the first one, I have expertise gems selected as options (16 exp and 8 exp/8 hit) and what I'm reading from this is specifically opposite of what everyone says... that there is some threshold in dps output where an expertise gem will be better than a strength gem. (And haste > agi for cloaks which I've also seen said as untrue a number of times in the ret thread). I'm guessing that it's a dps threshold, because in my actual gear, T7BiS or lower Ulduar gear, expertise is still of lower value.

The second result is far enough under the expertise cap that the expertise gems are listed above strength gems in dps value, and the AP/exp glove enchants are nearly identically valued.

Exp gems allowed
Exp gems not allowed

Edit; Endo I just saw your post in the ret thread that basically is my answer.

Endoscient · 04/14/09, 8:02 PM

Did you read the huge warning that is shown when you show to relative stat values chart?

Fixed stats weighting are inherently flawed and not accurate. There purpose isn't to give correct accurate results that tell exactly how much each item is worth, but to give you a basic idea of the relative value of stats.

Cayse · 04/14/09, 8:12 PM

I generally use the gem page over the RSV, since the gem/enchant pages count the effective value of the enchant where the RSV is each itemization point and for something like expertise that can be fairly inaccurate.

Endoscient · 04/14/09, 8:15 PM

Originally Posted by Cayse

I generally use the gem page over the RSV, since the gem/enchant pages count the effective value of the enchant where the RSV is each itemization point and for something like expertise that can be fairly inaccurate.

The reasons that RSV is inaccurate affects the Gem chart in the same way. The only stat a Ret cares about that doesn't take up the same amount of the item budget is AP, and you can just multiply it by two to get its item budget value.

InspGadgt · 04/14/09, 9:06 PM

I notice in the new version it no longer displays Hit in the stats page as the previous version did. Did this get omitted or is there an option I'm forgetting to check?

• frmorrison · 04/14/09, 9:25 PM

Originally Posted by InspGadgt

I notice in the new version it no longer displays Hit in the stats page as the previous version did. Did this get omitted or is there an option I'm forgetting to check?

It displays hit, although it is by showing your Miss (so if you had 7% to hit, it would say 1% miss).

Paul · 04/15/09, 12:51 AM

Are the 25% +armor pen and 30% +haste changes modeled in this version?

Endoscient · 04/15/09, 12:57 AM

Originally Posted by Paul

Are the 25% +armor pen and 30% +haste changes modeled in this version?

Please read the first post.

Full 3.1 support.

Hylo · 04/15/09, 7:28 AM

Latest build (2.2.0.7) gives me 4,77% crit from 298 agility - or at least that's what the tooltip says. When I checked wowwiki, requirement for 1% crit is 52,08 agi for paladins at lvl80.

On the other hand new US armory gave a paladin 7,63% crit from 227 agility (tooltip again).

As you can see none of these numbers match so what's the deal here? Is Rawr module giving too little crit from agi or are the others incorrect? (I did shuffle quite some pieces around to get hitcapped, but according to rawr my crit% has dropped by almost 5,5%... too bad can't check how it is on live yet)

[edit]: And of course I forgot our crit is different vs. 80 and 83 mobs. I'll ignore the tooltip now as Endoscient suggested

Endoscient · 04/15/09, 8:10 AM

Originally Posted by Hylo

Latest build (2.2.0.7) gives me 4,77% crit from 298 agility - or at least that's what the tooltip says. When I checked wowwiki, requirement for 1% crit is 52,08 agi for paladins at lvl80.

On the other hand new US armory gave a paladin 7,63% crit from 227 agility (tooltip again).

As you can see none of these numbers match so what's the deal here? Is Rawr module giving too little crit from agi or are the others incorrect? (I did shuffle quite some pieces around to get hitcapped, but according to rawr my crit% has dropped by almost 5,5%... too bad can't check how it is on live yet)

Totally ignore that tooltip in Rawr, its totally inaccurate.

Paul · 04/15/09, 7:00 PM

2.2.0.8 Optimizer still producing inferior sets to the ones I find.

Retribution Profile - Ulduar
Ret Profile - Current Gear

Rawr finds ~5340 in my current gear profile. Mine is @ 5362.

Similar issue with Ulduar gear equipped.

I've checked to make sure I have all the options checked off multiple times.

Same result happens whether I have "override regem/reenchant" checked or not. Not sure those options actually do anything. I read "override regem" as disabling regemming, though I think it's supposed to be the opposite.

I'm also getting the most dps out of the rotation by putting Consecration first (cons > how > judge > divine storm > cs > exorcism on Humanoids). Makes no sense to me.

I notice mongoose popping up in weapon chants. Is it properly modeled, though?

Endoscient · 04/15/09, 11:04 PM

For bugs with the optimizer please post them in the main Rawr thread, or over at the Codeplex site, as it isn't an issue with the Retribution model, but the overall program.

It is possible to mark certain items as available to the optimizer, but only with their current gemming and/or enchant. Selecting override regem/reenchant ignores those options and we test out regemmed/reenchanted pieces.

Yes Moongoose is modelled properly. Why would you think that it isn't? It even says in its tooltip the effect it is providing.

Personally with one of the files I tested, I get CS > HoW > Judge > DS > Cons > Exo as 5653 dps, and Cons > HoW > Judge > DS > CS > Exo as 5562 dps. That could definitely change with gear though, and that is the point of having the rotation simulator instead of hard coded effective cooldowns.

kharen · 04/16/09, 10:26 AM

Same result happens whether I have "override regem/reenchant" checked or not. Not sure those options actually do anything. I read "override regem" as disabling regemming, though I think it's supposed to be the opposite.

Ctrl-clicking a diamond next to an item will fill it in blue, and then only that particular gemming of the item will be considered in the optimizer, unless you check "override regem". Handy for optimizing a set from an existing collection of gear you have if you can't afford to/don't want to regem it (I mostly use it for building specialized tanking sets where they may be significant overlap and regemming items repeatedly isn't an option; not so useful for ret where you basically have one single set and want it to be as good as possible).

Endoscient · 04/16/09, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by Paul

2.2.0.8 Optimizer still producing inferior sets to the ones I find.

Retribution Profile - Ulduar
Ret Profile - Current Gear

Rawr finds ~5340 in my current gear profile. Mine is @ 5362.

I tried to reproduce this myself, and while at first I was getting similar results to you. When I put the thoroughness to max the optimizer was returning 5,362 for me.