Rawr Retribution Model - Page 9

Endoscient · 04/27/09, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by duloth

First of all i would like to tank you for the nice job you are doing on the ret model.

I don't know if it's the right place to post for a feature request, but i was wondering if it's possible to add on the Optimizer part of the retribution rawr model something like the one you have in the tankadin model.

Having the possibility to add a requirement for expertise, hit and such to "override" usual optimizer on some fights.

While it is definitely possible for me to add optional optimization requirements, what is the point for adding these caps in? There is nothing that really encourages us to be at cap besides the fact that it is the most dps per item point, unlike for example DKs whose rotation could get messed up by a missed an attack, particularly a disease applier.

firekatana · 04/27/09, 4:09 PM

Is the 2.2.1.0 somehow bugged on enchants? It shows my current enchants as being very low on dps, even though i am sure they are best in game

Endoscient · 04/27/09, 4:19 PM

Originally Posted by firekatana

Is the 2.2.1.0 somehow bugged on enchants? It shows my current enchants as being very low on dps, even though i am sure they are best in game

You should read the first post.

Originally Posted by Endoscient

Something is wrong! HELP!

If you think something is wrong, either an incorrect calculation or whatever, please post here with the problem. But remember to ALWAYS post your Rawr XML character file when you do. It is significantly easier for me to diagnose the issue if you do. How do you post the XML character file? You can either upload it to a place like Filefront, or you can copy & paste the text into a PM to me.

I am not aware of any issues with enchants, they are working correctly for me. Please post again with your character file, and what enchant you believe is incorrect.

firekatana · 04/27/09, 5:10 PM

It must have been a loading bug or something. I retried after restarting rawr and reloading character and it works now. Sorry about jumping to conclusions.

vorda · 04/28/09, 3:46 AM

The optimizer is not putting gems correctly. In several cases, whenever I ran optimizer a few times with 'override gems/enchants', I can still manually put better gems and enchants. (in this case I was working on a BIS ret set and managed to replace the gloves enchant for AP and gem 8 exp 8 hit in a spot where I got 4 hit bonus -t8 shoulders I think- for a higher dps, hit capped situation)

duloth · 04/28/09, 3:55 AM

Originally Posted by Endoscient

While it is definitely possible for me to add optional optimization requirements, what is the point for adding these caps in? There is nothing that really encourages us to be at cap besides the fact that it is the most dps per item point, unlike for example DKs whose rotation could get messed up by a missed an attack, particularly a disease applier.

According to the values per point of strength and expertise they are very close (1.67 vs 1.64 if my memory still works ok), considering fights like kalogarn and an Avitus post the expertise becomes "more interesting" but it's not enough to justify the use of 100% time in front of the boss (the new option you added recently) due to the arms damage.

I recognize that a missed skill won't hurt rotation like on a dk/rogue or whatever but enforcing the expertise cap (or a bit more) on this fights will outscale the benefit from str/ap if it's min/max we are strictly going for.

aylen86 · 04/28/09, 8:54 AM

Originally Posted by duloth

[...], considering fights like kalogarn and an Avitus post the expertise becomes "more interesting" but it's not enough to justify the use of 100% time in front of the boss (the new option you added recently) due to the arms damage.

Parrying is deactivated on fights like Kologarn. Developers did not want to punish melee dps further.

Endoscient · 04/28/09, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by vorda

The optimizer is not putting gems correctly. In several cases, whenever I ran optimizer a few times with 'override gems/enchants', I can still manually put better gems and enchants. (in this case I was working on a BIS ret set and managed to replace the gloves enchant for AP and gem 8 exp 8 hit in a spot where I got 4 hit bonus -t8 shoulders I think- for a higher dps, hit capped situation)

You should read the first post.

Originally Posted by Endoscient

Something is wrong! HELP!

If you think something is wrong, either an incorrect calculation or whatever, please post here with the problem. But remember to ALWAYS post your Rawr XML character file when you do. It is significantly easier for me to diagnose the issue if you do. How do you post the XML character file? You can either upload it to a place like Filefront, or you can copy & paste the text into a PM to me.

I know the optimizer is one of the reasons people like using Rawr over a spreadsheet, but if you have any concerns about the accuracy/effectiveness of it please post them on Codeplex or the in the main Rawr thread. I had no hand in creating the optimizer itself, so I won't be able to personally help you as much as others could.

My guess, you didn't have the hit/expertise gem available for the optimizer to use.

Ranjurm · 04/28/09, 1:03 PM

The optimizer also states that it is not guaranteed to give you the best set and you should be sure to put it to max thoroughness.

Capstone · 04/28/09, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by duloth

According to the values per point of strength and expertise they are very close (1.67 vs 1.64 if my memory still works ok), considering fights like kalogarn and an Avitus post the expertise becomes "more interesting" but it's not enough to justify the use of 100% time in front of the boss (the new option you added recently) due to the arms damage.

I recognize that a missed skill won't hurt rotation like on a dk/rogue or whatever but enforcing the expertise cap (or a bit more) on this fights will outscale the benefit from str/ap if it's min/max we are strictly going for.

I saw someone somewhere else suggesting to go over cap on expertise on fights where you might spend a fair amount attacking in front; this is flawed. Before dodge cap expertise value is indeed doubled when attacking from the front (assuming the mob parries), thus making expertise the highest rated stat; however as soon as you hit dodge cap it drops back to its normal position below STR in the ratings (since it then only removes parries). Never exceed expertise dodge cap if you can help it.

Avitus · 04/29/09, 7:04 AM

Originally Posted by Capstone

I saw someone somewhere else suggesting

Saying "someone somewhere" is never really useful, especially if what they said was garbage (it just leads to more uncertainity/confusion).

Never go over the expertise cap. Nothing more needs to be said about this issue.

duloth · 04/29/09, 7:49 AM

@avitus : in fact my point was this. i remember your post about the values of expertise in specific fights/situations

in rawr i had a set with the optimizer which gave a

Attack Power: 5.943
Crit Chance: 38,94%
Miss Chance: 0,00%
Dodge Chance: 0,52%
Melee Haste: 35,25%

and one by enforcing the expertise/hit cap with

Attack Power: 5.959
Crit Chance: 38,38%
Miss Chance: 0,00%
Dodge Chance: 0,00%
Melee Haste: 35,25%

due to the 16 more ap and expertise cap i was wondering if the second one would have been a better set due to changes and the loss of nearly 0.50% crit.

my point was not to go over exp/hit cap but to "force" the hit cap over other non-strength stats.

aylen86 explained that it's not usefull because "on fights like kalogarn" the parry mechanism is disabled, don't know about the dodge though, so my initial "request". my fault is probably having a main mage (the one in profile) and trying to help my gf's retridin on "unconventional" fights :P

Avitus · 04/29/09, 9:01 AM

It's really not that hard:

Get to the Hit cap > Get to the Exp cap > Stack Str

Notice that the difference (up or down) is negligible to:

Get to the Hit cap > Stack Str

You can't go wrong either way considering how close Str and Exp are at the moment, though I'd argue that getting to the Exp cap first will give you more reliable results on some fights and is therefore (at least to me) the preferred choice.

Or even simpler, the only things you can do wrong when gearing up as a retadin are:

-Not getting to the hit cap
-Gearing over the hit cap
-Gearing over the exp cap

Anything else you do is valid and you can blindly follow Rawr, sheets or whatever your choice of calculator is, most of them have failsafe measures against going over the cap(s) anyway.

(Note: This is not all directed towards you, but all the people that keep dancing around the issue and asking the same questions over and over when stat values couldn't be any more clear).

Methyl_Druius · 04/29/09, 10:47 AM

I see no mention of Righteous Vengeance damage in the Rawr Retribution module, either on the main dps breakdown or listed skill-by-skill. I was just wondering how this damage is included and whether there are any plans to make RV damage viewable either in total or by skill. Obviously our 4-piece bonus affects overall RV damage; I just want to make sure this is being taken into account.

Endoscient · 04/29/09, 2:26 PM

Originally Posted by Methyl_Druius

I see no mention of Righteous Vengeance damage in the Rawr Retribution module, either on the main dps breakdown or listed skill-by-skill. I was just wondering how this damage is included and whether there are any plans to make RV damage viewable either in total or by skill. Obviously our 4-piece bonus affects overall RV damage; I just want to make sure this is being taken into account.

It is taken account in the code that calculates the average damage per ability use. In the future I might add a way to view a breakdown that separates out Righteous Vengeance damage.