On a side note, on that same fight if you were using JoL, check to see how much healing you did. I know on one of our kologarn attempts, I was first on damage done, DPS, and healing done. Any reasonable raid/raid leader will find this quality attractive.
Yeah, I blew the doors off my raid on Kolo too. Then I looked at the data. ~17% of my damage was to the right arm. Ie: utterly irrelevant. Subtracting that 17% put me way below the top dps'ers on the fight...
I'm also a bit concerned about my dps, but I know part of it is that I just haven't adjusted to the new priorities. I find myself falling back to judgment a lot, especially as the night went on. I guess I'm just really habitual, but on a couple of the fights I actually had more judgments than CS's... Guess I just need to keep telling myself 2 before 3, 2 BEFORE 3, damnit. Curse my twitchy middle finger!!
Well if you really hitting the keys based on muscle reflex instead of thinking about hitting the button for judgement you could just move the spell icons and not have to teach your hand anything new.
To be fair deconstructor isn't really the best showing of our dps... the combination of adds and the exposed heart put me well above anybody else at 7500 dps. That's not saying that our single target dps is bad (I was 3rd on damage done to deconstructor only), but then again there are very few fights left in the game that deal with one single boss and no running or add gimmicks. If you think about it, the last good single target dps check we had was brutallus ;p Also don't forget that we are not unique in regards to aoe damage; warriors have whirlwind, rogues have fan, dk's have all kinds of aoe crap, and every ranged class has some form of aoe - in fact I'm pretty sure every class has some form of aoe that could "skew the meters" on any given fight, but it just isn't practical a lot of the time.
If you really want a fight to shine on, it's kologarn25. I did ~6600 dps in that encounter and all of it counted for something; damaging his arms hurts kologarn himself, killing the adds is necessary, and you get quite a bit of splash damage on kologarn while killing his arms via cons/DS. Add to that 25% of the raid healing done because of JoL and DSac'ing if one of our holy paladins got gripped, and it becomes one of my favorite fights so far. Just wish our shaman would post the wws sooner.
Oh and frmorrison, I wouldn't worry about hitting the expertise cap much... we had an amazing trash ring drop last night with hit/str/exp (which I lost the roll for :/), if I had won it I'd probably be very close to expertise cap myself now, and I haven't even upgraded anything yet.
I'll say I had some concerns going into 3.1, but I'm really enjoying what blizzard has done with the class, I don't know about you guys but It just feels to me our class is more complete now. I think it has a lot to do with the fact exorcism is universal, and DS/CS got some buffs so they feel like real attacks now, not just fillers as you wait for massive judgment crits. All in all, I'm enjoying it quite a bit in Ulduar. Some of the fights in there seem pretty ideal for ret paladins. The Kologarn encounter is a blast for us, you can just stand at his gut and ds/cons all 3 body parts at the same time. Here's to hoping the rest of Ulduar proves to be just as friendly.
Why is hit the single most important stat now in 3.1 when strength was the strongest one before? Is this because of the buff to Crusader Strike?
A) an actual change in mechanics, where SoB makes up a much larger percentage of our damage (and SoB scales twice with hit - on the original attack, and on the SoB proc)
B) a realization that previous understanding of mechanics was wrong in the case of instant attacks. Instant attacks actually use a 2 roll system, which means hit rating is more valuable than previously thought, when we thought instant attacks were a 1 roll system.
A few posts last page went into the net effect of DSac on tantrums and a few other Ulduar bosses - could anyone go out and attempt stacking DSac to see how that's handled damage wise? Is 150% of all health pools in fact transferred, where does it go and how is it reported (i.e. does each player see an individual combat log entry for each DSac active indicating how much damage they mitigated)?
Similarly, what is the type of the transferred damage? Same as it's source or flat physical/holy/something else?
While I know that not all Ulduar gear is known yet, would anyone be willing to share their BiS setup? I would like to have multiple points of reference. Also, are you guys passing to warriors on the ArPen plate in the first pass?
Last edited by Blackthought : 04/17/09 at 6:17 PM.
Similarly, what is the type of the transferred damage? Same as it's source or flat physical/holy/something else?
I don't think it is a good idea to stack DiSac, it seems better to use them at different times. It would be interesting to see how they stack though.
The transferred damage is physical/holy/whatever it originally was.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
The transferred damage is physical/holy/whatever it originally was.
If true, that means we could in theory use DSac in conjunction with HoProtection for mobs with high Physical AE spikes, or in the absence of AE, use it that combo to serve as yet another method to provide a Shield Wall style defense for a tank. Granted, you won't be doing any Physical DPS, but if the situation merits it...
If you really want a fight to shine on, it's kologarn25. I did ~6600 dps in that encounter and all of it counted for something; damaging his arms hurts kologarn himself, killing the adds is necessary, and you get quite a bit of splash damage on kologarn while killing his arms via cons/DS. Add to that 25% of the raid healing done because of JoL and DSac'ing if one of our holy paladins got gripped, and it becomes one of my favorite fights so far. Just wish our shaman would post the wws sooner.
Damage does not get transfered to Kologarn unless you kill the arm. Since there's no reason to kill left arm, a huge chunk of your dps is irrelevant.
I'm curious as to how people are planning their upgrades through ulduar.
Already being hit and very close to ex caps makes figuring out what upgrades to snatch fairly difficult (I'm probably making it more complicated than it needs to be, of course. Numbers hurt my brain). I've set up three templates on lootrank-- one standard weights, one for hit cap, and one for hit+exp cap. Shifting back and forth between the three to figure out what I should be wearing is a nightmare, lol. (The issue is compounded because, like I'm sure many of you, I have a boatload of sub-BIS nax gear in the bank, many of which climb a few ranks once caps are reached.) Anyway, how are you all handling this?
I'm curious as to how people are planning their upgrades through ulduar.
I as well have myriad Naxx/Maly/etc gear sitting in the bank. After getting just one Ulduar10 ugrade, I'm already well over hit cap, while being very close to exp cap. I foresee a little bit of limbo where we are massively over both caps, and waiting for a few filler pieces that lack exp/hit.
I don't think it'll be very easy to avoid such a position, at least until Ulduar drops become more commonplace, so I'm not too worried about it. I will be subbing in pieces I have in the bank as I am able, like you, which may cover that awkward phase in gearing up.
At least hit will have some (if marginal) value when over 8%.
If true, that means we could in theory use DSac in conjunction with HoProtection for mobs with high Physical AE spikes, or in the absence of AE, use it that combo to serve as yet another method to provide a Shield Wall style defense for a tank. Granted, you won't be doing any Physical DPS, but if the situation merits it...
I was thinking more like HoSac + HoP on yourself for pally pain suppression on bosses... limited usefulness but still.
To go a little off-topic, I have a quick trinket question. For raids, I had been using Mirror of Truth and Extract of Necromanic Power (I never won a roll on the melee specific trinks).
According to my recount, pre-patch the Extract was accounting for about 1.5% of my total damage consistently. Post-patch, it's accounting for maybe 1.2%
This trinket does not exist on the spreadsheets linked in the forum. Anyone have any numbers supporting using the Extract over, say, Battlemaster's Accuracy (to reach hitcap)?
Armor Penetration modeling is about to get a bit more interesting.
Based on preliminary tests, there doesn't seem to be anything amiss with how armor pen is calculated. There is a cap on the amount of armor you can reduce, but it is fairly complicated and depends on things like creature level and "class" (most mobs are warriors).
We'll make a break from tradition and post exactly how the armor penetration number is derived. We tried to examine some of the numbers posted in this thread, but they were complicated by extraneous factors such as not always knowing the target level, the effects of mace spec, and multipliers on say Bloodthirst that we couldn't ascertain.
Give us a bit to get some numbers together and complete our tests and I'll respond to this thread. As a quick and dirty calculation, assume that the cap on a level 83 warrior mob is 8205.75 * your percent of armor penetration.
If I'm reading this correctly he's saying that at 100% armor penetration against a boss level "warrior" mob we would take off a total of 8205.75 armor. Wouldn't that devalue armor penetration given that our assumptions were based on armor penetration applying to very high armor levels?
Divine Sacrifice + HoP:
This is good news. Means we can now use DS every 2 min, as long as the damage is physical (switch between using it with HoP and Divine Shield). The value of the talent just increased quite a bit.
@flyingtoastr
Yep, that's how I read it as well. Here is his response:
Okay, here is a farily technical explanation we put together for how armor pen works.
We didn’t want Armor Penetration Rating to be too powerful against low armor targets, like it had been in BC. We also didn’t want Armor Penetration Rating to be too powerful against high armor targets.
So, we decided on a system where there is a cap on how much armor the Armor Penetration Rating can be applied to. So, the first X armor on the target is reduced by the percentage listed in the Armor Penetration Rating tooltip, and all armor past that X is unaffected. Another way of understanding that is we multiply the percentage in the tooltip times the minimum of the two values: the cap, and the amount of armor on the target after all other modifiers.
Computing the cap is a little tricky unless you are already familiar with how World of Warcraft armor works. There is an armor constant we’ll call C. C is derived as follows (in some pseudocode):
If (level<60)
C=400+85*targetlevel
Else
C=400+85*targetlevel+4.5*85*(targetlevel-59);
For a level 80 target, C=15232.5. For a level 83, C=16635.
The cap for Armor Penetration then is: (armor + C)/3.
A level 80 warrior creature has 9729 armor. C=15232.5. So, the cap is (9729+15232.5)/3=8320.5. Let’s say a player has 30% armor penetration from armor penetration rating and no other modifiers that complicate the calculation (talents, Battle Stance, Sunder Armor, etc.). The game chooses the minimum of 8320.5 and 9729, so 8320.5. That is multiplied by 30% = 2496.15, and so that much armor is ignored. The effective armor on the target is 7232.85 (9729-2496.15). From a player point of view, the armor penetration rating didn’t ignore the full 30%, but instead ignored 25.66%. (85.5% as effective as expected).
These equations should help you be able to test and verify that Armor Penetration Rating is working correctly and as we designed. The tooltip is not actually inaccurate, as it states: “Enemy armor reduced by up to 30.00%.” That "up to" is key.
Please be sure to test without any other effects which modify the armor calculation (Battle Stance, Sunder Armor, Mace Specialization, etc.) as they may involve other systems that add additional complexity to the calculation.
So basically, ArPen is now "up to" the % in the character tab. Then again, results show that this is the case for several stats against boss mobs.
Damage does not get transfered to Kologarn unless you kill the arm. Since there's no reason to kill left arm, a huge chunk of your dps is irrelevant.
We got our kill tonight by dpsing the right arm whenever it was up. While doing this splash damage also took the left arm down to a low percent. When we killed the right arm and the boss had 12% left, we burned down the left arm for the kill. This may or may not be the best strategy, just throwing the idea out there that ignoring the left arm doesn't have to be a given.
We got our kill tonight by dpsing the right arm whenever it was up. While doing this splash damage also took the left arm down to a low percent. When we killed the right arm and the boss had 12% left, we burned down the left arm for the kill. This may or may not be the best strategy, just throwing the idea out there that ignoring the left arm doesn't have to be a given.
This strategy guarantees that anyone gripped should easily be saved (the arm also removes around three million hp off the boss). Adds are a pain for melee, but it's fairly straight forward.
The BB, where being accepted matters
Originally Posted by Kazanir
This thread is hurting my self-esteem because I've never been hit on (to my knowledge) by a gay man. :/
I've run Ulduar10 and 25 this week, clearing everything up to and including Thorim in 10 and getting frustrated at healers having trouble with tantrum+light bomb (which has been hotfixed tonight, thankfully) on Deconstructor in 25.
In Ulduar 10 I had mana issues if I spammed Consecrate. It could be attributed to not having a mage for AI or a second Paladin for JOW. I had to drink a mana potion on almost every boss. I didn't have any mana issues in 25 unless sub-20% dragged on for too long.
JOL is simply amazing. Every raid should have a good Ret Paladin if only for this debuff - it heals for over 800 in my Naxx gear.
The damage from Seal of Blood isn't even noticeable any more.
Sacred Shield is fantastic, both for the mitigation and the near-guaranteed critical heals with Art of War, and I love Divine Guardian. Divine Sacrifice makes a noticeable difference whenever I use it, but I have to pair it with Divine Shield in most cases in order to survive.
I upgraded two pieces of gear tonight and I am now way over the hit cap. Looking at further upgrades like the neck and belt from Emblems of Conquest yields only more hit, and I don't have enough Valor emblems to buy the plate bracers. It's going to be an akward (and expensive) situation with each upgrade until I get mostly Ulduar gear.
For Kologarn: try standing under the left arm while damaging the right. You get no debuff from the adds and the add tank has more freedom.
Picked up Wrathstone yesterday and i couldn't use Wrathstone+Haste enchant(Engineering) at the same time(It worked like 2 trinkets).
Can anyone post in the english forum if that is a bug or "working as intended".
JoL is amazing put me at 2500 HPS+ on nearly every Boss in Ulduar now. And i love the way AoE dmg went up due to SoB change.for Tips(razorscale,XT,Kologarn,Thorim,Hodir,auriaya) pm me hope i can help
I upgraded two pieces of gear tonight and I am now way over the hit cap.
Passing the hit cap will be an issue if you don't have spare hit gear around. At least hit has a value past 8% melee (for Exo and Cons tics).
I got the new T8 pants and am 20 hit over the cap (I have 0 hit gems). I could regem hitless gear or not worry about it, I am going towards the latter.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
04/17/09, 2:09 PM
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