KanonGemini

Hi there, my first post here.

I geared my pally following RAWR/EJ comments and this is how it looks:
The World of Warcraft Armory

Regarding the Exp against Str question, I wonder if they are really at the same place. The point is that I obviously know the problems of spreadsheet simulations, however I was considering the fact that for Expertise to be effective, you need to be attacking from behind. Do spreadsheets consider this? In not, I was wondering if the real weight to be given to this stat is [Current Weight] * [% Time attacking from behind] and hence if Str >> Expertise even below cap.

Thanks,
Kanon

 

Rasputin

Expertise is actually twice as effective when attacking from the front, as it reduces dodge and parry equally and you can only be parried from the front, while you can be dodged from any direction. The spreadsheets seem to be in agreement that Expertise is just about equal with Strength up to the dodge cap, so I'm not really sure where your question is coming from. Maybe you could clarify what you mean by saying that Expertise is only effective when attacking from behind?

 

KanonGemini

This is how I think Divine Sacrifice work.

When you cast it, it gives a buff to the party members in the 30y range. I'll define any of these as [Member].
I will also define:
[Y]=[Paladin's Health] * 1.5
[P]= Divine Sacrifice percentage (30% to 40%)

From this moment:
FOR EACH [Member] is supposed to be dealt [X] dmg
IF [X]*[P]<[Y] THEN
[Member]'s Divine Sacrifice causes [Paladin] IF(DivineShieldActive,0,[X]*[P]) dmg
[Y]=[Y]-IF(DivineShieldActive,0,[X]*[P])
END
END

Hence under Divine Shield the 150% cap is never reached and you keep absorbing for the full duration.

Please correct me if I'm wrong

 

KanonGemini

I'm referring to the description in the first post:
"Expertise
Introduced in late BC, this stat allows us to remove dodges from the attack table when attacking from behind, as melee often does! You need 26 Expertise (214 rating, 6.5%) to cap this stat; much like hit, any expertise after the cap is wasted. Capping this stat is a significant dps increase vs uncapped (or none at all) as it affects our whites, strikes, and SoB. You ideally want to cap this stat alongside hit, but it may not be possible without gimping other stats in 3.1 - just like hit, any expertise beyond the cap is wasted and useless. Don't gem for expertise, let it come naturally via gear.
"

Did I misunderstand or it is not updated?

Thanks!

 

Rasputin

Yes, I think you did misunderstand. Expertise removes parry and dodge from the attack table when attacking any mob, from any direction. You can only be parried when attacking from the front of a mob, but while behind you can still be dodged. Parries are why we attack from behind. The dodge cap for mobs is 6.5%, so that is our effective expertise cap, since we can only be dodged when attacking from behind, and not parried. The text you quoted is admittedly a little unclear, but the intent I think was to note that we only need to worry about removing dodge from the attack table, as we attack from behind. The reason is that the parry cap is significantly higher than the dodge cap, so if people geared for that they would waste a great deal of item points on expertise which they don't need, as we attack from behind and therefore parry is not on our attack table.

Is that clearer?

 

KanonGemini

Thanks Rasputin, I'll keep it prioritised as STR then.

 

J1M

Divine Sacrifice will overwrite Hand of Sacrifice. You cannot use them together.

Using HoSac with HoP as a pain suppression ability is an idea that has merit for Holy, but losing the ability to attack would suck and I guess you would trade 12 seconds of ret dps for 30% dmg reduction and 12 seconds of ret heals. Given forbearance and the 30 sec delay off of AW I can't see this being a very useful ret tool.

 

Arthaal

My assessment is, if you're having to use it, shit has hit the fan and the raid losing your DPS for another 12s of your tank living is probably worth it over wiping now. I wouldn't pitch it as use once a fight utility of course.

Percent modifiers R'US

 

Jellex

Removed frivolous information.

 

J1M

Why did you type this out? You already know the answer. There are already 3 wasted pages in this very thread discussing hit and expertise.

 

flyingtoastr

On fights like Heroic Deconstructor your personal DPS loss from using Divine Sacrifice is more than made up for by keeping everyone else alive and making the healer's jobs easier.

 

• frmorrison

Sounds like trolling or someone that doesn't know mechanics. Playing since BWL doesn't mean that much.

If you don't see a log parse or math, then the person is likely using their "feelings" which aren't reliable.


Anyway, 4 piece T7 is nearly worthless, since in the use CS first rotation you actually cast Judgement about every 9 seconds. Personally, I swapped to some expertise items (Before I had 3 and now I have 14) and dps improved. I am on the lookout for more expertise on items (looking for that 25 trash drop ring).

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Jellex

I typed it out because said person claimed to have seen the math in this thread and proven it wrong. I didn't believe it myself, but I admit that sometimes I skim/get glazed eyes when a lot of math goes on all at once, and wanted to make sure I hadn't missed people arriving at a conclusion.

I'm sorry if the question was bothersome.

 

Valsh

I don't know if this is just my imagination, or if it has been echoed already but it seems like Divine Sacrifice ignores the damage cap if you're under an immunity(naturally). Pretty much a raid wide shield wall for 10 seconds, this is invaluable in a lot of situations.

 

flexbutt

If he disagrees with the math but you are unable to portray his thoughts, it'd probably be a good idea for him to post in here his findings and why they are more correct than the current math. Posting in here "my friend says you guys are wrong but I can't explain why" doesn't carry too much weight as I see it.

 

KanonGemini

Read Post #253

 

Valsh

Well i was just assuming, i didn't get to actually test it but considering the buff is removed when you reach the damage cap without any shielding i guess it's fairly safe to say the spell is in full effect until DS/HoP wears off. I can see them fixing it though, it's extremely advantageous on a lot of fights.

 

Princess Vespa

I would be less shocked to see them fix the HandoProt interaction than the Full immunity, that basicly makes it a 5 minute cooldown? That's pretty solid for an Oh Crap button and not something spammy.

 

• Avitus

I really don't think Divine Sacrifice is such a powerful buff in large groups, I'm willing to go out on a limb and say it's designed for small instances/10 mans.

In 25 man it's pretty hard to notice. Sure ~40k absorbed (at say ~26k buffed HP) might sound nice, but over 24 people that's ~1.6k absorbed each. Considering the number ranges flying around in 25 man and even worse in 25 man hardmodes, 1.6k is less than nothing.

If you could "control" it (as in, who gets the effect), it would be a lot more useful. Then you could cast it on a tank and give him 40k damage reduction over 12 seconds (as a secondary, more powerful Hand of Sacrifice spell), or if you could cast it on a party only it would be 40k over 5 people.

In 10 mans (~4.5k for each of the 9 people) and especially 5 mans/pvp (~10k for each of the 4 others) I can see how it is a lot more useful however.


Don't get me wrong, certainly do use it whenever you bubble, but in 25 mans with very few exceptions (no raid AoE damage and just a handful taking damage, very unlikely) it's simply a stepping stone to get the far more vital Divine Guardian talents, nothing more.

 

Jellex

Um... wow. I've managed to give the totally wrong impression and look like an idiot right off the bat, haven't I. x.x

It's not "my friend" but another person I disagreed with. The crux of my question was, "someone claimed there was new math supporting a different view. Is this correct or not?" and it was swiftly answered that this claim was not correct, and that was that.

For the record, I thought the philosophy portrayed here (hit/exp cap) was correct, but I know that the "truth" can change at any time whenever somebody brings in new results, as happened when it was discovered that the specials were on a 2-roll system which in turn boosted hit significantly in terms of stat weighting. The reason I asked is because I wanted to make sure I hadn't missed something that had gone by in one of the math posts which I don't understand.

I hope that clears up the confusion. I'm not supporting this other view I mentioned - I wanted to know if there was a second school of thought as to what the optimal setup was, and if it existed, whether it seemed to have merit. I now know that's not the case, but I wanted to be sure.

Sorry for the trouble.

EDIT so this post has something useful in it: In my experience with Divine Sacrifice thus far, it does seem that it functions far better in a smaller group, 5 or 10 man, than it does in a full 25 man, because the health cap gets eaten up extraordinarily fast in a 25-man and you may not even mitigate one 'wave' of an AoE like the Tympanic Tantrum. Not saying it doesn't have its uses, but I guess I was expecting perhaps too much of it (heroically mitigating a massive amount of raid-saving damage!) and not paying enough attention to its actual functionality, which is why I imagine the original Divine Guardian talent was nerfed in the first place.

If the damage being absorbed while Divine Shield is up doesn't count against the 150% health cap, I would assume this is probably a bug that would be swiftly fixed, seeing as they are attempting to quickly come down against anything that could be used to cheese a hardmode or make an encounter easier than they planned it.

 

Meranoth

While you can think of it as a 24-man absorb, there's also a really good use of it to help soak damage on a tank. While it can't be fully utilized as HoSac on a single target, you can still time it to a boss ability to mitigate a good chunk of damage.

Maybe an interesting change in the design of the spell would be to make it castable on a target and base the absorption on their HP and redirect it toward you? I don't disagree it's underpowered for 25 man content, but it does help a bit.

 

beastieboy

I'm not sure if this has been asked before but why did you pick 2 handed weapon specialization over Crusade in your PVP 0/19/52 talent spec?

 

asdatarius

crusade is dispellable

 

beastieboy

Not Heart of the Crusader. The talent Crusade.

 

flyingtoastr

Heart of the Crusader is a physical effect anyway.