I would guess it's because 2h spec works against all targets, while crusade only gives 3% damage against things that are not humans, demons, undead, or elementals (i.e. feral druids).
While you can think of it as a 24-man absorb, there's also a really good use of it to help soak damage on a tank. While it can't be fully utilized as HoSac on a single target, you can still time it to a boss ability to mitigate a good chunk of damage.
From my experience so far there's rarely any 25 man encounter where having the Divine Sacrifice effect on a tank would be worth it where there isn't a ton of heavy AoE flying around on the raid eating it up and nullifying that objective, which is exactly the point: There is no control over the ability, this lack of control makes it fairly useless in 25 mans. (Even if there is an exception, this is the case for 99% of everything).
Sure it "statistically exists" (as in "every little bit helps") and there's no harm in using it when Divine Shield is up, but it's barely noticeable in that setting.
Originally Posted by Jellex
I guess I was expecting perhaps too much of it (heroically mitigating a massive amount of raid-saving damage!)
This. I was trying to defuse the "Divine Sacrifice is the best thing since sliced bread" frenzy of the last few pages, where people really aren't looking at the facts. Small groups yes, big groups not really.
I was trying to defuse the "Divine Sacrifice is the best thing since sliced bread" frenzy of the last few pages, where people really aren't looking at the facts. Small groups yes, big groups not really.
I was also expecting more from the talent, but the real thing about this talent group (Divine Sacrifice>Divine Guardian) is really the sacred shield buff. It buffs our survival alot in Ulduar, but in the same time maintaining sacred shield up all the time can easily make me mana negative (the new SoB glyph isn't helping much tbh, no way near to justify the loss of dps glyph so far, at least in my experience) on many Ulduar encounters.
I continue to use divine sacrifice whenever im forced to bubble, to help "a bit", but wont use it on purpose anymore. It just dosen't worth the mana cost+dps loss for me in terms of mana saved for the group healers. Even in fights like the deconstructor.
I was also expecting more from the talent, but the real thing about this talent group (Divine Sacrifice>Divine Guardian) is really the sacred shield buff. It buffs our survival alot in Ulduar, but in the same time maintaining sacred shield up all the time can easily make me mana negative (the new SoB glyph isn't helping much tbh, no way near to justify the loss of dps glyph so far, at least in my experience) on many Ulduar encounters.
It seems weird that you'd have mana trouble even with the sob glyph. I don't use the glyph and I've rarely experienced mana issues in 25 man. In 10, though, I absolutely have to switch to JoW and make sure my shaman uses spring. Our mana is definitely better, but it's still balanced assuming you have every raid regen buff.
It seems weird that you'd have mana trouble even with the sob glyph. I don't use the glyph and I've rarely experienced mana issues in 25 man. In 10, though, I absolutely have to switch to JoW and make sure my shaman uses spring. Our mana is definitely better, but it's still balanced assuming you have every raid regen buff.
We usually have only 2 paladins (matter of availability) and 1 warrior tank in the raid, so, no BoW for me :/
I really don't think Divine Sacrifice is such a powerful buff in large groups, I'm willing to go out on a limb and say it's designed for small instances/10 mans.
In 25 man it's pretty hard to notice. Sure ~40k absorbed (at say ~26k buffed HP) might sound nice, but over 24 people that's ~1.6k absorbed each. Considering the number ranges flying around in 25 man and even worse in 25 man hardmodes, 1.6k is less than nothing.
If you could "control" it (as in, who gets the effect), it would be a lot more useful. Then you could cast it on a tank and give him 40k damage reduction over 12 seconds (as a secondary, more powerful Hand of Sacrifice spell), or if you could cast it on a party only it would be 40k over 5 people.
In 10 mans (~4.5k for each of the 9 people) and especially 5 mans/pvp (~10k for each of the 4 others) I can see how it is a lot more useful however.
Don't get me wrong, certainly do use it whenever you bubble, but in 25 mans with very few exceptions (no raid AoE damage and just a handful taking damage, very unlikely) it's simply a stepping stone to get the far more vital Divine Guardian talents, nothing more.
I agree somewhat, but as a few people mentioned it has the potential to be far higher than 1.6k~ negated per person if the paladin him self is immune to the damage Divine Sacrifice is dealing. In fact the buff doesn't get removed at all while under immunities giving a Raid-wide "Shield wall" at the cost of 50%(DS)/100%(HoP) damage momentarily.
A quick example would be Ground tremor at Freya with 1 elder up, it's roughly 11k damage to each raid member which would be 4400 reduced on 24 people, and then the 40% reduction continues on whatever incoming raid damage remains for the last 10 seconds of Divine Sacrifice while Hand of Protection/Divine Shield is active. Of course these are just rough numbers, but it's far from a weak talent.
On fights like Heroic Deconstructor your personal DPS loss from using Divine Sacrifice is more than made up for by keeping everyone else alive and making the healer's jobs easier.
Obviously this is true. The post you quoted is talking about using Hand of Sacrifice with Hand of Protection as something akin to pain suppression, which does not seem to be a very good ret option, but is an interesting idea for holy.
Obviously this is true. The post you quoted is talking about using Hand of Sacrifice with Hand of Protection as something akin to pain suppression, which does not seem to be a very good ret option, but is an interesting idea for holy.
Why isn't it a good ret option? If you have to stop DPSing for 10 seconds but guarantee your tank stays alive during >insert boss ability here< you're doing more help than blinding rolling your face over your attacks and watching him die.
OK, reaching 3.1 i had managed to pick up 2 pieces of naxx gear with expertise on them. Chest from Maexxena and the Inevitable Defeat mace. Using these with the old Magister's terrace trinket i manged to dig out the bank, i can get to 6.25% or 25 expertise. At first on the dummies in IF it looked like i was pulling more DPS than normal had i equipped my Battlemaster's Hostility pvp crit trinket, T 7.5 chest and Cryptfiend's bite.
However since we started raiding ulduar, i have noticed a massive gimping to my Crit, drop from >45% raid buffed to around 31% with same group/buffs (25 man). And the number of crits from all attacks and spells was ridiculously lower than i'm used to. Hopefully WWS report goes up tonight for comparisons after i decided to switch gear.
So while being Exp capped is going to be a crucial to max DPS, it doesn't seem to be worth it if we're losing so much Crit due to our heavy reliance on it for DPS.
P.S hoping to run a quick naxx and maly this week so hopefully i get luck with pre Ulduar BiS drops and can determine an optimal way of pushing towards exp cap without losing DPS along the way due to lower crit.
Why isn't it a good ret option? If you have to stop DPSing for 10 seconds but guarantee your tank stays alive during >insert boss ability here< you're doing more help than blinding rolling your face over your attacks and watching him die.
Partly because HoP will only save you from physical damage and partly for the other reasons I listed in the previous post. :P
Partly because HoP will only save you from physical damage and partly for the other reasons I listed in the previous post. :P
Your reasons were that you "lose 12 seconds of DPS". Anyone who can do elementary math will tell you that your personal DPS loss from -10 seconds and a couple seconds of delayed Avenging Wrath on a boss fight is a lot less than the possible wipe from a main tank dying.
Yes it can only be used to block physical damage, but you just have to plan accordingly. If a boss is going to hit your tank for a ton of fire damage (like Sarth +3) you pop bubble + HoSac. If he's going to do a bunch of physical damage (like tantrum) you can blow HoP + HoSac.
There is still no reason not to use the tools you have at your disposal.
I agree somewhat, but as a few people mentioned it has the potential to be far higher than 1.6k~ negated per person if the paladin him self is immune to the damage Divine Sacrifice is dealing. In fact the buff doesn't get removed at all while under immunities giving a Raid-wide "Shield wall" at the cost of 50%(DS)/100%(HoP) damage momentarily.
I definitely would agree with you if that's the case, however I'm not sure if it has been conclusively proven that that's how it works (anecdotal evidence is not evidence). I seem to recall my buff fading at Mimiron + AoE + Plasma Ball, but I could very well be wrong.
I'll test it some more when we do 25 man content again next week, I would appreciate if people here can do their own tests and report back with some proof so we can call it a definite yes or no.
I have definitely had my Divine Sacrifice end early while bubbled quite a few times. I use DoTimer to mange my buffs/debuffs and it is very easy for me to notice how long it lasts with it.
I agree with Avitus about it not being the end all be all raid utility. Its nice and can definitely help on some fights, but if you have 26k health it will only absorb ~1.55k damage per person which isn't that much in the grand scheme of things.
Hello this is my first Post here, so hello everybody ;-)
My english is not the best so i hope you can understand what i want to tell.
We did our third Ulduar 10-man run yesterday and i used Bubble+Divine Sacrifice with every new Trash Group or on our first Boss trys. This was very very helpful. Also at the pull at Auriaya it safed the life of our Tanks. You can easyli click it off after the pull.
There are several situations where this combination is very powerful. Especialy when your raid is learning the encounters or the new trash.
I will test HoP+DS tonight at Tantrum in our 25-man raid.
Your reasons were that you "lose 12 seconds of DPS". Anyone who can do elementary math will tell you that your personal DPS loss from -10 seconds and a couple seconds of delayed Avenging Wrath on a boss fight is a lot less than the possible wipe from a main tank dying.
Yes it can only be used to block physical damage, but you just have to plan accordingly. If a boss is going to hit your tank for a ton of fire damage (like Sarth +3) you pop bubble + HoSac. If he's going to do a bunch of physical damage (like tantrum) you can blow HoP + HoSac.
There is still no reason not to use the tools you have at your disposal.
I listed more than "lose 12 seconds of DPS".
I guess I'll say it again. The number of conditions required to make this a useful ret tool make it extremely unlikely that you will find a use for it. Hence it is "not a very useful ret tool". I did not say "don't use this ever". Having thought about it more, I might say that now.
1. Assuming you use AW at the start of the fight and every time it comes up you can only use this for 90 of every 120 seconds or just not use AW "just in case".
2. If this sort of tool is required, you would use Bubble with DS or HoS first, since it lets you continue dpsing.
3. You'd have to wait two minutes until forbearance goes away.
4. The spike damage needs to be physical or at least a significant portion of it needs to be (otherwise the 30% you are absorbing will be extremely small)
5. The damage you will take has to be high enough to justify using HoP over Divine Protection, which is not on the GCD, won't interfere with attacking, works for all damage types, and cannot be given to someone else - unlike HoP.
6. It has to occur often enough that Bubble is not available again the second time you need to do it.
7. This somehow has to be more effective/reliable than an elemental shaman or boomkin switching to heal for brief periods or swapping you out for another discipline priest or holy paladin.
4. The spike damage needs to be physical or at least a significant portion of it needs to be (otherwise the 30% you are absorbing will be extremely small)
7. This somehow has to be more effective/reliable than an elemental shaman or boomkin switching to heal for brief periods or swapping you out for another discipline priest or holy paladin.
There are more than one boss where the majority of the damage is physical.
No class can "heal" everyone by absorbing around 35,000 damage. That is a unique talented ability, so that is worth something.
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Nope, they're both 10s... which probably explains people getting destroyed right as Div. Protection ends and while their Div. Sac remains active for another 1.5s. Like it was reported earlier, I can't imagine anyone surviving even a single GCD in a 25man setting during AoE without bubbling it (Div. Shield that is). The durations also neatly line up in that direction: pop DShield, 1 GCD, DSac and they both expire within half a second of each other.
So you either take a tonne of damage before or after the bubble? Is it possible to survive D.Sac'ing a tantrum on 25man at all? I've only used it on 10-man
I just have a couple of quick things I wanted to talk and ask about. One, my aura is not persisting through death, like it's been noted in recent patch notes and in the OP. I was wondering if anyone else has noticed this "bug".
Also, in the OP, there's just a quick wording detail I'd like to point out. For Divine Sacrifice, the OP states, "Causes all party/raid members affected by one of the paladin’s auras to transfer 30% of all damage taken to the paladin..." I believe the range on this is 30 yards, while auras are 40 now. Also, it is a 40% damage redirect, not 30%.
I just have a couple of quick things I wanted to talk and ask about. One, my aura is not persisting through death, like it's been noted in recent patch notes and in the OP. I was wondering if anyone else has noticed this "bug".
Also, in the OP, there's just a quick wording detail I'd like to point out. For Divine Sacrifice, the OP states, "Causes all party/raid members affected by one of the paladin’s auras to transfer 30% of all damage taken to the paladin..." I believe the range on this is 30 yards, while auras are 40 now. Also, it is a 40% damage redirect, not 30%.
It seems that the change to Auras persisting through death is a bug and will probably need another patch to be fixed (Unless they hotfix it first which will probably not happen)
Also to add to the discussion of people getting Divine Sacrifice and it being useless. Where else could we possibly put the points anyway? No where. I agree that it is a weak talent and could probably use some changes (or a new talent). The only other option for rets to spec into is IMP Devo aura atm. Which your prot paladin should be picking up anyway. Rets really have lackluster talents at the moment.
So you either take a tonne of damage before or after the bubble? Is it possible to survive D.Sac'ing a tantrum on 25man at all? I've only used it on 10-man
Yeah, it's possible. I had to tell one of our healers to spam me when he starts to tantrum so I can live through the initial 1.5s, which was only about 6k of damage. Your mileage my vary.
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Yeah, it's possible. I had to tell one of our healers to spam me when he starts to tantrum so I can live through the initial 1.5s, which was only about 6k of damage. Your mileage my vary.
D-Sac is suicidal at best without the use of Divine Shield. My DS is worth about 60k worth of damage, which means in most 25 man situations that calls for its use it lasts approximately .02 seconds. It really needs to scale better - sure it's great for 5 mans, maybe situationally for 10 mans but it has no purpose in 25 mans unless you can guarantee your tank is going to be the only one taking damage and you want to "super sac" him.
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04/19/09, 10:37 AM
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