As I stated several pages back they do not stack. You can confirm this very easily for yourself.

On the subject of Divine Sacrifice and Immunities, i have this combat log to offer up : Wow Web Stats

Hodir 10 hard mode attempts until the kill. Our tactic was to use 1 healer and just use Divine Sacrifice on the 2 Frozen blows(One from the holy paladin and one from me).

It appears to be working as normal from everything i can see, absorbs a total of 40-50k+ damage before fading either to the duration or cap(??).

Edit: One of my later ones Absorbs a total of 65k damage, my health buffed was around 23-24k.

As J1M just noted, Divine Sac and Hand of Sac don't stack. If you bubble->DS->HoS, that could quite feasibly explain DS fading early. This seems to make sense, since 58% damage reduction on a tank, able to be chained for ~10 seconds per Paladin in the raid, would horrendously trivialise some encounters (although I'm not entirely sure that 40% instead of 58% in the same situation wouldn't, but there you go).

The idea was to have HoSac take over once DivSac runs out (over the cap), I guess it's worth further testing. It didn't get removed immediately however (there was a delay), nor does that explain any of Mooncrow's logs which did not use HoSac afaik.

Endoscient do you recall if you added HoSac in there? Regardless, I don't believe the use of HoSac is it, based on the above.

Were all of the five instances of DS fading early of the magnitude of ~5 seconds or did it only happen that one time? I was going through some of your logs and from what I could tell the other times DS faded early it was only by a second or two which could be caused by lag. I went through some more of my own WWS reports and my DS lasted for 9-10 seconds everytime when I used Divine Shield first. Also I checked the Mooncrow's logs for HoSac (because that was the first thing I thought of) and no one used it, so that theory is out the window.

Is it possible that a massive lag spike from the person logging could corrupt a combat log to the point where it looks like a buff fades 5 seconds too soon? We are going to need more paladins to put up their logs.

There's 5 pages of talk on Divine Guardian absorbing more than it should but the answer is probably just in the wording of the tool tip. The way I read it is that Divine Guardian will absorb 30% of each tick of incoming damage on the raid for the duration that it is up. The 150% cap means that if you have 21k health, the max absorbed tick can only be 28k. I think the cap is there just so that you can't stack paladins to absorb an enrage effect that should be 1 shotting tanks.

I'd just like to throw my hat in and say that we've been using Divine Shield + Divine Sacrifice as a raidwide 40% damage absorption for 10 seconds to all nearby raid members. With 3 Paladins (1 Ret, 2 Holy) or sometimes 4 even, it's absolutely amazing.

I didn't get to test it on XT-002 (although I wish I had thought of it when we were wiping to light bomb/tantrum combinations), but it seemed to work without any cap at all on Kologarn (pop shield+sacrifice when he grips people) and Hodir (frost AoE aura). I definitely absorbed way more than 150% of my health.

It hurts your personal DPS, but is it worth it to use? No question about it, you'd be a fool not to. As it is now, it's probably the most powerful raid utility in the game by far.

I'll try to get a more concrete parse of XT-002 and get some actual hard data on Tuesday so it's not just he said/she said anecdotal evidence, but it really seems like it's not ever hitting the 150% cap as long as you use Divine Shield first.

I see another onehere on the first attempt that starts at 2:51 and gets removed at 2:57; on that particular one, he didn't bubble until 2:53 though; it shouldn't make a difference, but who knows? Two of the other ones are cut short because they were used without DShield at all, which led to the obvious consequence, and the other one lasted 8 seconds, so lag is a possibility. Lag from the person(s) logging is pretty unlikely though, we usually have multiple loggers to prevent that exact thing, and I believe there were 3 logs for this run.

So at this point I am willing to say that the full duration behavior is the intended and something weird is happening occasionally to make it fall off prematurely. More data sets would be great though, I know our guild's paladins will be gleefully popping it every cooldown until we figure out an answer.

Regarding Divine Sac, I did some Ulduar today with the talent, and looking at WWS, the uptime wasn't always 10 seconds. I always used the /cast bubble /cast DiSac macro

Wow Web Stats 4 seconds of the buff

What we were doing was pulling Auriaya and her cats have a huge dps buff on the pull. Most of the time the buff lasted less than 10 seconds.

However later we did Hodir and I used DiSac during Frost Punch and the buff lasted the whole time.

Let's see at your latest log. Assuming a 25m setup, you'll have around 27k hp, putting the threshold on ~40,5k .
see edit for new and correct calculations

Auriaya 5 Hurst (35392) 7898 7346 8443 7346 4359

Hurst gained some divine aegis, for around 5470 absorption. Considering he has around 6k AP in bear form, he gained for ~3k savage defense shields during the DS time.
That puts hurst his total DS value at 26922, which is close to my assumption of your buffed HP.
Either I made some errors, or there is some bug/mechanic we're not aware of.

From the looks of it, I'd go back to the logs where DS breaks early and see if it broke because a single person redirected 100% of the paladin's hp.

EDIT:
Im bored, so decided to check this theory on your hodir/auriaya tries:
Hodir 1
DS duration: 10 seconds (0:01'04.562 - 0:01'15.046)
Max DS absorption: Hurst - 26050

Auriaya 9
DS duration: 4 seconds (0:00'02.219 - 0:00'07.125)
Hurst: 25305
Lankey: 21964
Kelce: 0 (auriaya reached him after DS ran out)
Total: 47629

Auriaya 8
DS duration: 5 seconds (0:00'03.172 - 0:00'08.438)
Hurst: 20914
Tylah: 21767 (died)
Lankey: 11096
Total: 53777

And since I did some stupid errors in auriaya 5 probably, here is it again:
Auriaya 5
DS duration: 4 seconds (0:00'04.375 - 0:00'08.765)
Hurst: 34295
Lankey: 2208
Total: 36503

In these logs, I calculated by adding all the damage on each line under DS effect and multiplying by 0.4 . For some reason though, if I calculate the Auriaya 5 log manually (add all absorption amounts, browse through log to calculate savage defense and divine aegis amounts) I get a different value.

Couldn't agree more. I have even been using a bit Expertise heavy setup in Ulduar with this in mind. With Heavy I mean a bit over the cap rather then under. As you said there isn't many fights where you get to attack from the behind but rather from the sides or even in front of the Boss.

One thing that I have also been thinking of is that higher static AP gives higher Judgement of Light heals. I personally am above 1k on each heal, can't help but thinking that's it's rather overpowered even though most of the healing is overhealing.

Another observation I have made with quite extensive testing of Divine Shield and Divine Sacrifice, yes testing so this isn't backed up with numbers, but generally me popping Divine Shield and Divine Sacrifice will stabilize a situation. Mostly thinking of Hodir and Thorim where the Raid takes a lot of damage. Not giving any thoughts to actual numbers, it's at least in my eyes a nice tool in 25 man Raids as well, not only 10 man. It buys the healers the extra time to get the situation under control again.

Bottom line I do like my Paladin a lot more now in 3.1 then I did 3.0.9. I think the 0/17/54 build, changes to Art of War, Imp Divine Guardian etc made us much more complete and gives you options to support the Raid without loose too much dps.
Ulduar is also rather Paladin friendly it's suitable for our type of damage, I was worried about not being competitive, I'm happy that we really are in 3.1.

Isn't the fact that, in similar situations:

1) under DShield, DSacrifice lasts for its full duration
2) without DShield DSacrifice expires before the 10 seconds

a proof?

Since my post #253 was not clear apparently, I'll make a simpel example with numbers. I'm assuming the paladin as 20k life and that he has DGuardian as well.

WITHOUT DShield:
When he casts DSacrifice, an imaginary CAP=30k is set and all eligible (in 30y) members gain the buff DSacrifice.
Now, if a member is supposed to take 10k dmg, INSTEAD the member takes 6k dmg and 4k is trasnferred to the paladin and decreases CAP which will now be 26k. Next member is supposed to take 15k dmg, the member takes only 9k dmg and the paldin takes 6k, moving the CAP to 20k. Once CAP reaches 0, the buff fades.

WITH DShield:
When he casts DSacrifice, an imaginary CAP=30k is set and all eligible (in 30y) members gain the buff DSacrifice.
Now, if a member is supposed to take 10k dmg, INSTEAD the member takes 6k dmg and 4k is trasnferred to the paladin but, since DShield is active, 0 dmg will be caused to him and the CAP will stay at 30k. Next member is supposed to take 15k dmg, the member takes only 9k dmg and the paldin takes 6k, but, since DShield is active, 0 dmg will be caused to him and the CAP will stay at 30k. For this reason, CAP never reaches 0 and the buff fades when 10 seconds have passed.

As stated earlier your theory is as good as any unless we get the actual numbers to proof it. I suggest you do what most of us do and record your combatlog and upload it at sites like wowwebstats or similar.

Pretty clearly showing DSacrifice expiring before DShield.

Well, I suppose this is proof contrary to what I was saying, wonder if it has been hot fixed or in all the other examples there were other things affecting what I saw seeing.

The one explanation that holds true with your parse and the other parses, as i understand it, is that DS will be dispelled when a single person causes more than 150% of the paladin's health (~30k dmg) to be absorbed. So if there is raidwide aoe you can absorb 60k or more of dmg, until either the 10s are up or a single person (the tank probably) goes over the cap.

Or has there been a parse that disproves this theory? (ie, a parse where the buff fades even tho no single person got 150% paladin hp absorbed)

Yes, check the auriaya 8 and 9 in my post.

I wouldn't bother. At the very best, expertise is just ever so slightly above strength (IMO, it's actually a drop below, but its different for everyone's gearset), and for a total dps increase of only 1-2 it's really not worth it to regem (yes, that's how much it matters atm). Just let yourself get it from ulduar gear, I'm sure we'll be capped or very close to cap when all is said and done.

Point taken Zurm, it will also give me more time to help figure out the DivSac/DivGuard dilemma we have going on here

While a dilemma it may be, it's a pointless one, IMO. Regardless of the final result, our talent specs, DPS, and playstyle will not change; DS/DG are extremely important for our utility, but they don't affect our DPS. While we could once again enter the arguement of DPS over survival for another five pages and waste more forum memory, I think our time in this thread would be better spent exploring ways to tweak our DPS or otherwise help our guild further progress into the instance.

For example, the current topic of the value of expertise is a good direction to go in. Again, this is just my personal opinion, if you all feel that this DS/DG topic is so important then by all means continue!

Simple question. Does the divinity talent in prot tree factor into the healing done by JoL and divine storm?

Yes, it does. And in fact, you actually double-dip when it comes to heals. Not only do you increase all healing output by 5%, but you also increase healing received (including healing from you with JoL/DS) by 5%. So healing done to yourself should be 10.25% higher than it was in 3.0.9, all other things being equal.

WWS and WMO reports of last night in Ulduar. I'm not much of a WWS / WMO user myself, but I did pop Div Sac after Div Shield on our successful attempt on XT-002, so there should be some data there of use.

This place has some very old ones, but for 3.x you could always try searching War Tools, although that's more likely to be inaccurate.