3.1 Retribution Paladin Thread - Page 20

J1M · 04/19/09, 8:01 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

Why isn't it a good ret option? If you have to stop DPSing for 10 seconds but guarantee your tank stays alive during >insert boss ability here< you're doing more help than blinding rolling your face over your attacks and watching him die.

Partly because HoP will only save you from physical damage and partly for the other reasons I listed in the previous post. :P

flyingtoastr · 04/19/09, 8:40 PM

Originally Posted by J1M

Partly because HoP will only save you from physical damage and partly for the other reasons I listed in the previous post. :P

Your reasons were that you "lose 12 seconds of DPS". Anyone who can do elementary math will tell you that your personal DPS loss from -10 seconds and a couple seconds of delayed Avenging Wrath on a boss fight is a lot less than the possible wipe from a main tank dying.

Yes it can only be used to block physical damage, but you just have to plan accordingly. If a boss is going to hit your tank for a ton of fire damage (like Sarth +3) you pop bubble + HoSac. If he's going to do a bunch of physical damage (like tantrum) you can blow HoP + HoSac.

There is still no reason not to use the tools you have at your disposal.

Avitus · 04/19/09, 9:08 PM

Originally Posted by Valsh

I agree somewhat, but as a few people mentioned it has the potential to be far higher than 1.6k~ negated per person if the paladin him self is immune to the damage Divine Sacrifice is dealing. In fact the buff doesn't get removed at all while under immunities giving a Raid-wide "Shield wall" at the cost of 50%(DS)/100%(HoP) damage momentarily.

I definitely would agree with you if that's the case, however I'm not sure if it has been conclusively proven that that's how it works (anecdotal evidence is not evidence). I seem to recall my buff fading at Mimiron + AoE + Plasma Ball, but I could very well be wrong.

I'll test it some more when we do 25 man content again next week, I would appreciate if people here can do their own tests and report back with some proof so we can call it a definite yes or no.

Endoscient · 04/19/09, 9:49 PM

I have definitely had my Divine Sacrifice end early while bubbled quite a few times. I use DoTimer to mange my buffs/debuffs and it is very easy for me to notice how long it lasts with it.

I agree with Avitus about it not being the end all be all raid utility. Its nice and can definitely help on some fights, but if you have 26k health it will only absorb ~1.55k damage per person which isn't that much in the grand scheme of things.

Logita · 04/20/09, 12:30 AM

Hello this is my first Post here, so hello everybody ;-)
My english is not the best so i hope you can understand what i want to tell.

We did our third Ulduar 10-man run yesterday and i used Bubble+Divine Sacrifice with every new Trash Group or on our first Boss trys. This was very very helpful. Also at the pull at Auriaya it safed the life of our Tanks. You can easyli click it off after the pull.
There are several situations where this combination is very powerful. Especialy when your raid is learning the encounters or the new trash.
I will test HoP+DS tonight at Tantrum in our 25-man raid.

J1M · 04/20/09, 1:04 AM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

Your reasons were that you "lose 12 seconds of DPS". Anyone who can do elementary math will tell you that your personal DPS loss from -10 seconds and a couple seconds of delayed Avenging Wrath on a boss fight is a lot less than the possible wipe from a main tank dying.

Yes it can only be used to block physical damage, but you just have to plan accordingly. If a boss is going to hit your tank for a ton of fire damage (like Sarth +3) you pop bubble + HoSac. If he's going to do a bunch of physical damage (like tantrum) you can blow HoP + HoSac.

There is still no reason not to use the tools you have at your disposal.

I listed more than "lose 12 seconds of DPS".

I guess I'll say it again. The number of conditions required to make this a useful ret tool make it extremely unlikely that you will find a use for it. Hence it is "not a very useful ret tool". I did not say "don't use this ever". Having thought about it more, I might say that now.

1. Assuming you use AW at the start of the fight and every time it comes up you can only use this for 90 of every 120 seconds or just not use AW "just in case".
2. If this sort of tool is required, you would use Bubble with DS or HoS first, since it lets you continue dpsing.
3. You'd have to wait two minutes until forbearance goes away.
4. The spike damage needs to be physical or at least a significant portion of it needs to be (otherwise the 30% you are absorbing will be extremely small)
5. The damage you will take has to be high enough to justify using HoP over Divine Protection, which is not on the GCD, won't interfere with attacking, works for all damage types, and cannot be given to someone else - unlike HoP.
6. It has to occur often enough that Bubble is not available again the second time you need to do it.
7. This somehow has to be more effective/reliable than an elemental shaman or boomkin switching to heal for brief periods or swapping you out for another discipline priest or holy paladin.

• frmorrison · 04/20/09, 1:22 AM

Originally Posted by J1M

4. The spike damage needs to be physical or at least a significant portion of it needs to be (otherwise the 30% you are absorbing will be extremely small)
7. This somehow has to be more effective/reliable than an elemental shaman or boomkin switching to heal for brief periods or swapping you out for another discipline priest or holy paladin.

There are more than one boss where the majority of the damage is physical.

No class can "heal" everyone by absorbing around 35,000 damage. That is a unique talented ability, so that is worth something.

J1M · 04/20/09, 1:42 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

There are more than one boss where the majority of the damage is physical.

No class can "heal" everyone by absorbing around 35,000 damage. That is a unique talented ability, so that is worth something.

I was not discussing the talent Divine Sacrifice. That is an excellent talent and I am very happy to have it.

Th1rte3n · 04/20/09, 1:54 AM

With 3.1 came a huge hit to [Venture Co. Libram of Retribution]. My question is, then, what should I get as a replacement, pre-raid? Is there an option? I've checked and don't believe I can still get [Libram of Furious Blows]. Do I have to settle for [Libram of Avengement]? Or is there a better option?

RangerSix · 04/20/09, 2:08 AM

Originally Posted by Th1rte3n

With 3.1 came a huge hit to [Venture Co. Libram of Retribution]. My question is, then, what should I get as a replacement, pre-raid? Is there an option? I've checked and don't believe I can still get [Libram of Furious Blows]. Do I have to settle for [Libram of Avengement]? Or is there a better option?

If you can't get [Libram of Furious Blows], then I'm affraid one of your best options will indeed be the [Libram of Avengement].

However, if there is any way for you to get the PvP libram, get that.

apoptygma · 04/20/09, 2:36 AM

Originally Posted by Arthaal

Nope, they're both 10s... which probably explains people getting destroyed right as Div. Protection ends and while their Div. Sac remains active for another 1.5s. Like it was reported earlier, I can't imagine anyone surviving even a single GCD in a 25man setting during AoE without bubbling it (Div. Shield that is). The durations also neatly line up in that direction: pop DShield, 1 GCD, DSac and they both expire within half a second of each other.

So you either take a tonne of damage before or after the bubble? Is it possible to survive D.Sac'ing a tantrum on 25man at all? I've only used it on 10-man

Amnek · 04/20/09, 2:54 AM

Hi all. Long time reader, first time poster.

I just have a couple of quick things I wanted to talk and ask about. One, my aura is not persisting through death, like it's been noted in recent patch notes and in the OP. I was wondering if anyone else has noticed this "bug".

Also, in the OP, there's just a quick wording detail I'd like to point out. For Divine Sacrifice, the OP states, "Causes all party/raid members affected by one of the paladin’s auras to transfer 30% of all damage taken to the paladin..." I believe the range on this is 30 yards, while auras are 40 now. Also, it is a 40% damage redirect, not 30%.

Spectreclees · 04/20/09, 2:57 AM

Originally Posted by Amnek

Hi all. Long time reader, first time poster.

I just have a couple of quick things I wanted to talk and ask about. One, my aura is not persisting through death, like it's been noted in recent patch notes and in the OP. I was wondering if anyone else has noticed this "bug".

Also, in the OP, there's just a quick wording detail I'd like to point out. For Divine Sacrifice, the OP states, "Causes all party/raid members affected by one of the paladin’s auras to transfer 30% of all damage taken to the paladin..." I believe the range on this is 30 yards, while auras are 40 now. Also, it is a 40% damage redirect, not 30%.

It seems that the change to Auras persisting through death is a bug and will probably need another patch to be fixed (Unless they hotfix it first which will probably not happen)

Also to add to the discussion of people getting Divine Sacrifice and it being useless. Where else could we possibly put the points anyway? No where. I agree that it is a weak talent and could probably use some changes (or a new talent). The only other option for rets to spec into is IMP Devo aura atm. Which your prot paladin should be picking up anyway. Rets really have lackluster talents at the moment.

• promdates · 04/20/09, 3:03 AM

Originally Posted by apoptygma

So you either take a tonne of damage before or after the bubble? Is it possible to survive D.Sac'ing a tantrum on 25man at all? I've only used it on 10-man

Yeah, it's possible. I had to tell one of our healers to spam me when he starts to tantrum so I can live through the initial 1.5s, which was only about 6k of damage. Your mileage my vary.

♦ forostie · 04/20/09, 3:42 AM

Originally Posted by stabbymcgee

Yeah, it's possible. I had to tell one of our healers to spam me when he starts to tantrum so I can live through the initial 1.5s, which was only about 6k of damage. Your mileage my vary.

D-Sac is suicidal at best without the use of Divine Shield. My DS is worth about 60k worth of damage, which means in most 25 man situations that calls for its use it lasts approximately .02 seconds. It really needs to scale better - sure it's great for 5 mans, maybe situationally for 10 mans but it has no purpose in 25 mans unless you can guarantee your tank is going to be the only one taking damage and you want to "super sac" him.