I edited in some socket bonusses manually which were missing from rawr (even after refreshing the items from armory and wowhead), that is why your dps is lower probably.
(and the differences in some of the setups you posted and the ones I got. No point posting them now though, you've done some nice work in the mean time and I had dancing lessons :p )
I edited in some socket bonusses manually which were missing from rawr (even after refreshing the items from armory and wowhead), that is why your dps is lower probably.
(and the differences in some of the setups you posted and the ones I got. No point posting them now though, you've done some nice work in the mean time and I had dancing lessons :p )
For some reason Armory no longer lists any socket bonuses on there item information page, see Shoulderplates of the Eternal for example. If you refresh the items from Wowhead their socket bonuses should show up correctly.
Originally Posted by Baklava09
This is using all buffs except bloodlust, focus magic, and amplify magic. Using JC/Blacksmithing as the professions.
Bloodlust benefit is infact automatically calculated regardless of settings. The bloodlust buff that you see listed actually calculates how much dps you would do if you had bloodlust active for the entire fight, which is why it is listed in the temporary buffs section and not enabled by default.
To recap the BIS findings so far:
Bakalava and Vorda both have found setups which are slightly different but should be around the same 6,533 and 6,532 respectively. We also have a plate only setup for all classes except humans and a plate only setup for humans now available.
I would think that for a dwarf they may have a more interesting setup if anyone cares to test. Possibly Earthshaper would be BIS with their racial as well as the goat for hit they may be able to drop off the Blood fo Yogg trinket (sigh at Belf magic avoidance rather than weapon specilization)
Others who have findings please post yours. I included all the setups we have found thus far below. Please try and find more optimal setups if possible. I beleive all of these have beeen found using Rawr. It would be nice to see someone build a BIS sheet using Redcape or Bellator's if they have time to see if we find anything different.
Hopefully in a few days we can update the OP with the BIS gear list(s)
Head Conqueror's Aegis Helm
Neck Pendulum of Infinity
Shoulders Conqueror's Aegis Shoulderplates (8 str 8 hit)
Chest Conqueror's Aegis Battleplate
Waist Soul-Devouring Cinch
Legs Plated Leggings of Ruination (dragon eye, 8 hit 8 exp)
Feet Footpads of Silence
Wrist Wristbands of the Sentinel Huntress
Hands Conqueror's Aegis Gauntlets
Finger1 Godbane Signet
Finger2 Sif's Promise
Trinket1 Darkmoon Card: Greatness
Trinket2 Blood of the Old God
Back Drape of the Faceless General (dragon eye)
MainHand Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion (dragon eye)
Ranged Furious Gladiator's Libram of Fortitude
Character: test@test-EU
Race: BloodElf
Status: 6.533 dps
Health: 27.342
Strength: 1.999
Agility: 759
Attack Power: 6.640
Crit Chance: 47,38%
Miss Chance: 0,00%
Dodge Chance: 0,03%
Melee Haste: 33,69%
Weapon Damage: 2.652,09
Attack Speed: 2,38
White: 1.452
Seal: 1.730
Crusader Strike: 987
Judgement: 764
Consecration: 584
Exorcism: 277
Divine Storm: 516
Hammer of Wrath: 222
Other: 0
Total DPS: 6.533
Crusader Strike CD: 6,55
Judgement CD: 8,93
Consecration CD: 10,90
Exorcism CD: 17,85
Divine Storm CD: 10,89
Hammer of Wrath CD: 6,30
I took as second profession enchanting, so dps would be a bit higher with BS but shouldnt change any gear choices.
This was done raid buffed, fights of 6 minutes, mob type 'other', SoB, 2 stacked trinket resets, 1 mob, 0% time in front and 18% under 20% time.
Gemming is all 16 strenght besides the items where I mentioned other choices.
For humans, the picture will be different due to sword spec.
Helm - Conqueror's Aegis Helm
Neck - Pendulum of Infinity (socket bonus unknown)
Cloak - Drape of Faceless General (x1 Dragon's Eye)
Chest - Chestguard of Recluse
Wrists - Armbands of Bedlam (socket bonus unknown)
Weapon - Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion (x1 Dragon's Eye)
Libram - Furious Gladiator's Libram of Fortitude
Trinket1 - Darkmoon Card: Greatness
Trinket2 - Blood of the Old God
Ring1 - Seal of Betrayed King
Ring2 - Godbane Signet
Boots - Footpads of Silence
Legs - Congueror's Aegis Legplates (x1 Dragon's Eye)
Belt - Soul Devouring Cinch
Gloves - Conqueror's Aegis Gauntlets
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fight Length - 6 minutes
Mob Type - Other
Below 20% time - 18%
Attack Power - 6590
Crit Chance - 47.49%
Miss - 0% at 266 hit rating
Dodge - 0% at 213 expertise rating
Melee Haste - 32.62%
Weapon Damage - 2639.75
Total DPS - 6,532
This was used with JC/Blacksmithing. Also some socket bonuses are unknown and might provide more dps. This did not include bloodlust, focus magic, or amplify magic (7389 dps with those 3 buffs)
Best in slot - Plate Only
Replace Chestguard of Recluse with Steelbreaker's Embrace (x1 Dragon's Eye)
Replace Soul of Devouring Cinch with Belt of the Titans (x1 Dragon's Eye)
Replace Godbane Signet with Sif's Promise
Replace Footpads of Silence with Boots of the Underdweller
Replace 2x 16 str gems for 2x 16 expertise gems where applicable
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fight Length - 6 minutes
Mob Type - Other
Below 20% time - 18%
Attack Power - 6797
Crit Chance - 43.56%
Miss - 0% at 267 hit rating
Dodge - 0.1% at 210 expertise rating
Melee Haste - 32.62%
Weapon Damage - 2689.9
Total DPS - 6,436
For a Human Paladin, I show the following as best in slot Plate only.
Helm - Conqueror's Aegis Helm
Neck - Pendulum of Infinity
Shoulder - Conqueror's Aegis Shoulderplates (8hit + 8expertise gem)
Cloak - Drape of Faceless General
Chest - Steelbreaker's Embrace
Wrists - Armbands of Bedlam
Weapon - Voldrethar, Dark Blade of Oblivion
Libram - Furious Gladiator's Libram of Fortitude
Trinket1 - Darkmoon Card: Greatness
Trinket2 - Blood of the Old God
Ring1 - Seal of the Betrayed King
Ring2 - Sif's Promise
Boots - Battlelord's Plate Boots (Dragons Eye)
Legs - Conqueror's Aegis Legplates (Dragons Eye)
Belt - Belt of Titans (Dragons Eye)
Gloves - Conqueror's Aegis Gauntlets
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fight Length - 6 minutes
Mob Type - Other
Below 20% time - 18%
Attack Power - 6864
Crit Chance - 42.81%
Miss - 0% at 230 hit rating
Dodge - 0% at 186 expertise rating
Melee Haste - 36.1%
Weapon Damage - 2706.84
Total DPS - 6,507
This is using all buffs except bloodlust, focus magic, and amplify magic. Using JC/Blacksmithing as the professions.
For some reason Armory no longer lists any socket bonuses on there item information page, see Shoulderplates of the Eternal for example. If you refresh the items from Wowhead their socket bonuses should show up correctly.
Bloodlust benefit is infact automatically calculated regardless of settings. The bloodlust buff that you see listed actually calculates how much dps you would do if you had bloodlust active for the entire fight, which is why it is listed in the temporary buffs section and not enabled by default.
Thanks for that info. Also the only item I could find on Wowhead was Soul-Devouring Cinch with a socket bonus of 12 AP. Editing this changes the BIS setup to 6540 DPS. I still could not find socket bonuses to "Pendulum of Infinity" and
"Seal of the Betrayed King"
OK I know I keep posting but I've been messing around on Rawr again and found a new setup that looks amazing for those of you with Heroic Presence.
Total DPS for this setup shows as 6570!
Helm - Conqueror's Aegis Helm
Neck - Pendulum of Infinity (socket bonus unknown)
Shoulders - Conqueror's Aegis Shoulderplates
Cloak - Drape of the Faceless General (8str 8 hit gem)
Chest - Chestguard of the Recluse
Wrists - Armbands of Bedlam (socket bonus unknown)
Weapon - Dark Edge of Depravity (socket bonus unknown)
Libram - Furious Gladiator's Libram of Fortitude
Trinket1 - Darkmoon Card: Greatness
Trinket2 - Fury of the Five Flights
Ring1 - Godbane Signet
Ring2 - Seal of the Betrayed King
Boots - Footpads of Silence (Dragon's Eye, Icewalker enchant)
Legs - Conqueror's Aegis Legplates (Dragon's Eye)
Waist - Soul-Devouring Cinch
Gloves - Conqueror's Aegis Gauntlets (Dragon's Eye)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fight Length - 6 minutes
Mob Type - Other
Below 20% time - 18%
Attack Power - 6,458
Crit Chance - 47.49%
Miss - 0% at 230 hit rating
Dodge - 0% at 213 expertise rating
Melee Haste - 38.1%
Weapon Damage - 2636.23
Total DPS - 6,570
This is of course for both Human and Dwarf. I could not find any better setup then this. Also with a few of the item socket bonuses being unknown, the DPS could go up even further placing the JC gem somewhere else.
Thanks for that info. Also the only item I could find on Wowhead was Soul-Devouring Cinch with a socket bonus of 12 AP. Editing this changes the BIS setup to 6540 DPS. I still could not find socket bonuses to "Pendulum of Infinity" and
"Seal of the Betrayed King"
They can be found on mmo champion. The neck is 4 agi, the ring is still unknown. (but if I were to guess, it's 4 haste or so)
Can we conclude from this that Libram of Radiance is better than the Deadly Gladiator one? I'd say the Deadly Gladiator one would be better, but that's purely based on my gut feeling looking at both of them.
Now I am a Protection Paldin, bare with me in my ignorance
I bought the [Libram of Radiance]. Gave it a try for about an hour going back and forth with [Libram of Furious Blows]. I tried all sorts of rotations just to make sure I was putting out what I figured was the best DPS. Every single time Furious Blows Beat Radiance for improving my DPS in any rotation I tried. What could I be missing?
Regarding our current rotation and what seems to be being hinted at by the Surgical Crab, having an interactive DPS rotation, how should this effect our play in light to say other melee classes. Right now yea we have a priority list and nothing more complex than that, I would love to see it get a little more in depth but when you speak about choices how does that compare to, say an Arms warrior.
He drops his Mortal Strike whenever it’s up
He drops his Overpower whenever it’s up
He drops BladeStorm whenever it’s up
Once every 15 seconds he hit Rend
When Sudden Death lights up, he hits it regardless
In the event of excess rage he starts dropping Slam or Heroic Strike
The first thing I spot is he hasn’t got that many more abilities than we do for a basic dps cycle. One thing he isn’t depending on is 26% of his total damage being added on from his auto attacks. He keeps everything on CD just like us, he has to maintain his dot, just like us but on top of this he has this 'interactive proc' combat play style that is being hinted at for us. If Ret is to be made into something along these lines either we need more attacks to let us proc these abilities or the few on demand ones we have will have to hit like a train to make up for while we're waiting for a proc.
If ret is made into something along those lines, then what's the point of playing a Ret Paladin? To use the phrase I so revile from other classes QQing about their supposed irrelevance. If you make Ret Paladins play almost the same as warriors, there's little reason to leave both Specs in the game.
When I log from my Paladin onto my warrior I like a different experience in all three trees. The Prot specs play very differently, and right now the DPS specs play 'differently enough'. I didn't mind gear homogenization, more competition but more usable drops, that's cool in my book, but when you start homogenizing the actual process of playing the characters, *that* is when classes/specs truly start to lose their relevance. And sure, I know as Ret I have heals and cleanses, and those are tools a warrior doesn't have, but if we are changed to a proc/reaction play style, I can't see any clear reason to play a Paladin over a warrior, aside from the idea of playing a Paladin and the prettier graphical animations. Though that's enough for me to still play and enjoy my Paladin, I hate the idea of Joe Lame thinking I'm just a gimped arms warrior.
Though I must say, I'm very not happy with getting over half my damage just from auto-attack. =-/ On the other hand, if you look at DKs (the only other class with which I currently have significant experience raiding at 80), every DK spec gets the large majority of their damage from one button (Heart Strike, Frost Strike, or Scourge Strike; I don't do DW =P), which also causes me discontent (as a result my DK sits largely unused for the time being).
¬The Original PalaTank, William Erik Petersen The Unbreakable
Tanking with a Paladin since before it was cool.
I understand that with this set up it's 1.12% over the hit cap and that's wasted stats but I figured I'd post it because higher dps than most of the BiS combinations posted without any professions. Everything is socketed with STR gems so all of the hit comes from gear. If anyone can come up with a way to increase DPS and lower hit with this setup I'd love to hear it as I hate being over the hit cap.
EDIT: To clarify it's with all standard buffs, 5 minute fight length, also using Fish Feast; goes up to 6561 DPS with STR food.
All the other guys here have been running numbers with 6min duration. If we're gonna keep posting BiS setups here we might as well use the same settings.
Are you sure you have this set up as Mob Type: Other? I am definitely getting nowhere near that DPS, especially without professions. If I use your setup and have it on Undead, it gives me the same exact DPS. There are no undead in Ulduar though, and nobody cares how much more we will do in Naxx. Your setup shows up as 6325 with no professions on my rawr, and 6482 using the BS/JC combo. Not bad, but definitely not best in slot.
Are you sure you have this set up as Mob Type: Other? I am definitely getting nowhere near that DPS, especially without professions. If I use your setup and have it on Undead, it gives me the same exact DPS. There are no undead in Ulduar though, and nobody cares how much more we will do in Naxx. Your setup shows up as 6325 with no professions on my rawr, and 6482 using the BS/JC combo. Not bad, but definitely not best in slot.
I had the mob type on Humanoid but changed it to other and bumped the time up to 6 minutes it lowered it to 6280 dps so I guess the entire post up there is moot. Sorry >< I'm gonna keep playing with Rawr and see if I can come up with better combinations.
If ret is made into something along those lines, then what's the point of playing a Ret Paladin? To use the phrase I so revile from other classes QQing about their supposed irrelevance. If you make Ret Paladins play almost the same as warriors, there's little reason to leave both Specs in the game.
When I log from my Paladin onto my warrior I like a different experience in all three trees. The Prot specs play very differently, and right now the DPS specs play 'differently enough'. I didn't mind gear homogenization, more competition but more usable drops, that's cool in my book, but when you start homogenizing the actual process of playing the characters, *that* is when classes/specs truly start to lose their relevance. And sure, I know as Ret I have heals and cleanses, and those are tools a warrior doesn't have, but if we are changed to a proc/reaction play style, I can't see any clear reason to play a Paladin over a warrior, aside from the idea of playing a Paladin and the prettier graphical animations. Though that's enough for me to still play and enjoy my Paladin, I hate the idea of Joe Lame thinking I'm just a gimped arms warrior.
Though I must say, I'm very not happy with getting over half my damage just from auto-attack. =-/ On the other hand, if you look at DKs (the only other class with which I currently have significant experience raiding at 80), every DK spec gets the large majority of their damage from one button (Heart Strike, Frost Strike, or Scourge Strike; I don't do DW =P), which also causes me discontent (as a result my DK sits largely unused for the time being).
The part about the Arms warrior, I was only using it as an example. We're both chaps with a two hander, none of this stealth or totem malarkey. I wasn't saying we should play like them but since Arms was just overhauled by the Devs to make it more appealing after the 3.1 reign of Fury I figured it was a good place to start. The Devs have made no comment to hint that Arms is to boring or to easy to faceroll like what Ret got last week but you can still see how comparable they are.
Arms has a Strike, Ret has a Strike
Arms has Overpower, Ret has Judgment
Arms has BladeStorm, Ret has Divine Storm (a loose tie I know but the basics are the same. You use it when its up)
Arms has a Rend, Ret has Consecrate
Arms has deep wounds, Ret has Righteous Vengeance
Arms has Sudden Death, Ret has Art of War....?
This is where Arms breaks away is this idea of an interactive combat system. Anytime SD procs the Warrior will drop his Execute while when AoW procs most of the time we ignore it unless you want to heal yourself. It has nothing to do with your damage cycle.
I can't see how Arms is so much more different from Ret yet we are soon to be subject to a total system overhaul. If up front in your face burst is a problem then fair enough but whatever they do it has to still be viable, for both PvE and PvP.
Speaking of the Seal system, that could be where the problem arises in PvP and Burst. Like I said before Arms and Ret are quite similar in their range of attacks but the one thing Arms doesn't have is a free Seal swing attached to every swing or strike. How would Ret fair if you tried to play without Seals, only using CS and DS. Sure your damage output would be the equal to a wet sponge but I bet no one would complain about your burst.
If you are in a 5 or 10-man environment, and don't have complete buffs (I was missing Wisdom and Int the other night). How does the FCFS priority and glyphing strategy change? The first post easily indicates we should keep Judgement and Exorcism, and shuffle Consecration and SoB. However, when I run the three possible glyph sets through RAWR, my DPS drops 91 without Consecration, 39 without Exorcism, and 60 without Judgement. Now in Heroic raids, I don't ever have mana problems that a potion or LOH can't solve. But in Normal raids, I pretty much have to skip consecration to maintain mana.
Given what RAWR is telling me, wouldn't it be better to maintain the Consecration glyph ahead of Exorcism, if we're going to be using SOB at all. I surmise this would be from the GCD savings for the Consecration glyph.
Is this correct? If not, why, and why is RAWR telling me otherwise?
Devestate, please use Mob Type: Other as the baseline for best in slot setup. My previous setup beats this by almost 100 dps when selected to Humanoid/
For dwarves, I've found this setup, 6,626 DPS with the caveats above (All buffs, strength food, 6 minute fight, mob type other, no heroism or other funny business)
EDIT: Forgot the libram and weapon. Guess posting between Yogg attempts is bad for concentration Notable enchants are Berserking and Icewalker. Professions were Blacksmithing and enchanting, and depending on the socket bonuses on the rings, JC could bring an even bigger increase.
On another note: With this setup, Wrathstone is 6 DPS behind FotFF for DPS. When combined with the fact that you can pop Wrathstone on demand with wings every time, I'd rather take Wrathstone for the reliability.
Suggestions to make our FCFS button mashing playstyle more interactive / interesting is a potentially dangerous proposition. Sure, our dps setup is bland compared to other dps classes. But throw in the following:
1. AoW procced FoLs
2. throwing SS on the tank when he's getting hit by too much damage
3. HoSal the lock who overaggros
4. HoFreedom the MT/OT when needed
5. cleanse
6. bubble + div sacrifice
7. HoProtection the healer or dps who pulled aggro
8. help to offheal in emergency situations
And many more examples of things we HAVE to do on a regular basis to ensure that the raid team functions well or even survives. Do a fury or arms warrior have to contend with any of these?
Now throw in a more interactive dps mechanism that involves us watching dots, building up stacks/combo points or timing our abilities. Juggling such a system AND having to churn out bucket-loads of utility at the same time is probably next to impossible. We'll either have to sacrifice our utility to maintain our maximum dps, or pull sub-par dps to continue to bring utility to the raid group. At the very least, with our current bland and straightforward FCFS priority, we can do BOTH at the same time (although not having utility off the GCD does hurt our dps).
Our dps is already being taxed by our ability to bring utility to the raid. Enforcing a complex dps system will tax our dps even further. I'm satisfied with the FCFS button mashing. If anything, I hope for a nice, simple rotation (like DKs get) to our abilities to allow me to take my eyes off the CD icon and focus on bringing even more utility to the raid. But a complex dps system is really a no-go.
Taraxuss I think you forgot to link the weapon as well
With Baklava09's BiS "Plate-only" bloodelf setup I was somehow able to get about 6,444 dps rather than 6,436 by switching some gems/enchants around. Using the exact same buffs
If you are in a 5 or 10-man environment, and don't have complete buffs (I was missing Wisdom and Int the other night). How does the FCFS priority and glyphing strategy change? The first post easily indicates we should keep Judgement and Exorcism, and shuffle Consecration and SoB. However, when I run the three possible glyph sets through RAWR, my DPS drops 91 without Consecration, 39 without Exorcism, and 60 without Judgement. Now in Heroic raids, I don't ever have mana problems that a potion or LOH can't solve. But in Normal raids, I pretty much have to skip consecration to maintain mana.
Given what RAWR is telling me, wouldn't it be better to maintain the Consecration glyph ahead of Exorcism, if we're going to be using SOB at all. I surmise this would be from the GCD savings for the Consecration glyph.
Is this correct? If not, why, and why is RAWR telling me otherwise?
RAWR gives me Judgement>Exorcism>Consecration, so not exactly sure what's different in your setup. I can tell you from a practical point of view, when I swapped out consecration for SoB in my 10 man run, I saw no noticeable change in my dps. In fact, on a lot of the fights in Ulduar, I found it pretty handy to be able to drop consecration faster after a move. Also, the SoB glyph was enough of a difference that I went from struggling to have mana and running bone dry immediately after 20%, to being able to use AoW liberally and still not go mana negative until 20%. On 25mans, as you said, mana is never an issue whether you have the SoB glyph or not, but I find it invaluable for 10s.
It's also likely that Exorcism's value will go up after you get the T8 2pc. Regardless, the differences are small enough that I can see how gear/raid setups could easily skew things one way or another, so I would go with what RAWR suggests. If you want to post your xml file, I could probably see what the exact cause of the discrepancy is though.
edit: it looks like the consecrate glyph really jumps in value after you lose the T7 4pc.
Last edited by Mooncrow : 04/28/09 at 4:53 PM.
Reason: updated
Suggestions to make our FCFS button mashing playstyle more interactive / interesting is a potentially dangerous proposition. Sure, our dps setup is bland compared to other dps classes. But throw in the following:
1. AoW procced FoLs
2. throwing SS on the tank when he's getting hit by too much damage
3. HoSal the lock who overaggros
4. HoFreedom the MT/OT when needed
5. cleanse
6. bubble + div sacrifice
7. HoProtection the healer or dps who pulled aggro
8. help to offheal in emergency situations
And many more examples of things we HAVE to do on a regular basis to ensure that the raid team functions well or even survives. Do a fury or arms warrior have to contend with any of these?
...
Our dps is already being taxed by our ability to bring utility to the raid. Enforcing a complex dps system will tax our dps even further. I'm satisfied with the FCFS button mashing. If anything, I hope for a nice, simple rotation (like DKs get) to our abilities to allow me to take my eyes off the CD icon and focus on bringing even more utility to the raid. But a complex dps system is really a no-go.
I appreciate the defensive utility we bring to the PvE setting, but there is an inherent flaw with this sort of ideology. Spring-boarding off your post and GhostCrawler's recent post to provide ideas and philosophy on how to "fix" Ret:
First and foremost: our utility declines as we homogenize classes and buffs, therefore our spec's value declines. Let me state the blatantly obvious: there is really no buff or utility that Ret brings, that cannot be covered by another class, spec, or combination thereof. Aside from AoW procs, everything you have listed falls into the realm of the Holy and Prot Paladin, as well. In fact, I might even argue that it is more their duty to watch-dog some of those scenarios than it is Ret's job. Ret is the DPS tree. The one thing we bring to raids that is truly "unique" unto our class is Replenishment -- which requires us to do exactly what our specced role is: DPS.
Secondly, assuming a player finds themselves in a scenario where they are not required to provide those utility functions you have listed. (i.e. multiple Paladins in the raid.) Where is our value then? I am not opposed to the utility we provide and I understand the Hybrid Tax that accompanies the class. What I do not agree with, nor understand is the rationale that it is somehow acceptable that we "have" to provide sub-par damage or burst based upon the virtue that we are Paladins. Ret is brought to raids as DPS and utility; but if you cannot provide that bit of utility, you need to be able to provide the DPS. Again, I am not advocating that we do Rogue-like damage output: I am advocating that we be comparable to the other Hybrids. (which is EVERY class but four!) If my job and role in the raid -- why I'm brought into the raid -- is to provide decent damage, I need to have the means and tools to justify that. If Ret is brought to raids (or their spot justified in raids) to primarily supplement healing, cleansing, Handing, while doing less-than-decent damage: we have entered the realm where the spec has been bastardized into a niche role and gimmick-dom. Ret should not have to justify a raid spot by being able to provide insane amounts of utility and operating as the proverbial glue that holds a raid together.
My point: I like that we have the option to provide utility. Utility should come at the expense of some damage. But if we are allowed to focus on damaging, then Ret should be allowed to flourish in that capacity. The sentiment of, "Paladins bring a lot of utility," is antiquated. This reason alone does not simply justify undue treatment. We can look at Druids or Shaman and see that they are far more polished and seemingly less beholden to some silly ideology, and they provide no less utility than a Paladin can. Feral Druids are a great example of where we should aspire to be. When left to focus on doing damage: they do great damage -- Rogue-level damage. (again I'm not asking for this, just making a point!) But should they need to provide some utility, they can at little expense to their DPS; and they can get right back to doing what they were brought into the raid to do: DPSing. Warriors and DKs operate very much in this same fashion.
This is how the Ret paradigm should work.
Finally, I may not speak for everyone here on this, but I would not mind a more complex DPS system. I'm not advocating a complex management system of DoTs and timers, but something along the lines of, "If you do A then B then C, then you get this cool button to push that gives you D -- and D is really neat, beneficial and does good damage!" A system that rewards a player for being smart about their rotation. If I do not need to worry over what utility I bring, and can focus into dealing damage, then playing some meta-game (be it combo-esque, debuffs, etc.) which will help bolster my damage output is a very welcome proposition. Or if providing said utility allows me to do better DPS in some fashion, even better. We are a DPS spec and as such our role and utility in a raid should be centered around that spec and it's role: this is why I'm a fan of rewarding the spec for doing it job rather than having baseline arbitrary spells with arbitrary results. (see: square peg in round hole.) Ret should be using a skill-set unique unto Ret, rather than being so heavily reliant on baseline abilities which may not necessarily dovetail well with the spec. This will also circumvent future balancing/game-play issues when adjustments need to be made: they can be made on the spec level, rather than potentially damning the entire class. (as some of these recent Holy nerfs have done to Ret.)
To those who are brought to raids to be the utilitarian guy: great. I genuinely hope you are happy and successful in playing that role. That is not why I signed up to be a Ret Pally, however. I am brought to my raids to do DPS. The utility is nice and I use it when it is necessary. I do not operate as a backseat healer/cleanser first, and a DPSer second: it's exactly the opposite.
It's been a bit difficult to explain my thought process in print on this matter, so I hope this has been clear and thoughtful. (and hopefully worth the read!)
Ghostcrawler: If there is a spec we want to avoid over-buffing so that we don't have to nerf them, it's Ret.
I think the statement should be more along the lines of:
If that ret paladin did bad dps on Heigan say, its because he chose to play cleanser and help the raid. If his guildie did better dps he did so at the expense of being a full blown raid utilitarian, and was competent in the dps realm.
We should not be on the:
If you play ret you do less damage because you could be chain cleansing and helping the raid.
Just to add a little comment on utility vs DPS. I agree with flyingtoastr on this one:
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr
In a vacuum yes. However you could have had that priest doing something else (how about adding some DPS if your raid healing is that easy?) by just keeping HoF on the kiter. Who cares whether you absolutely need the stun or not? It's six seconds of free time for the kiter to unload completely full DPS into the mob, giving them more threat which means everyone else can push that much harder. No other class in the game can pop a 40% shield wall for the entire raid for 10 seconds, which is especially valuable in fights like XT and Hodir. Can your raid healers deal with the damage? Sure, but why stress them out even further if you can help out? Does that tank need an extra shield? Most likely not, but doesn't make it worthless (a clue: less tank damage is always a good thing).
Is the ret utility necessary? No. But it does make a lot of things a hell of a lot easier, which is the very definition of what every utility ability in the game is for. If you're not using it just because you don't "need" it you're either a masochist or an extremely lazy player.
If a cleanse, HoP, SS, etc can save someone, do it. Doesn't matter if your primary job is tanking, healing or DPS - we have the tools to help people survive, and we should use them whenever it is called for, as it might save someone from dying (someone dying is a much bigger DPS loss to the raid than losing 5 seconds of DPS).
That being said, of course we should bring competitive DPS, on par with Druids, Shamans and so on. There's no reason we should be behind Moonkins, Elemental/Enhancement Shamans, etc. Even if the utility argument was solid (which it's not), it would still be pointless when compared to Shamans and Druids, since they bring an equal amount of utility.
By the way, why are we even discussing this again? This topic has been beaten to death quite a few times by now. In short:
- Yes, we should bring competitive DPS, regardless of tools.
- Currently, we are bringing competitive DPS when we focus on doing damage. We're not on par with Rogues or Warlocks, but they're a bit over the top right now.
- The cat is dead. Stop poking it with a stick.
For future reference, can we put an end to posting lists of items based on Rawr tests, particularly where none of the relevant information regarding the test parameters is being posted? Every single person here has access to Rawr, and can download and experiment with gear setups at their leisure. The whole concept of "best-in-slot" revolves around an optimal gear set that, when worked towards in a vacuum, can (and likely will) actually leave you with sub-optimal DPS at a given time if you aren't using the modeling system to determine your ideal upgrade path along the way. In short, it's not helping anyone to keep reposting this information.
If you have a hypothetical "ideal" gear set you want to run past the OP for addition to the FAQ, just PM it.
04/27/09, 3:29 PM
Notable enchants are Berserking and Icewalker. Professions were Blacksmithing and enchanting, and depending on the socket bonuses on the rings, JC could bring an even bigger increase.
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