Someone brought up a good point in the Simple Questions thread.

Does Glyph of Seal of Blood provide mana if SS absorbs the damage. Based on normal mechanics I'd guess no, but a test could be useful. If indeed SS prevents this mana regen, it further devalues this glyph - Consecration glyph clearly beats it for mana savings.

Isn't that only if you find yourself with mana issues? Kinda like CS glyph last patch.

And also, for pvp you're gonna want Glyph of Salvation. Judgement/Salv/Exorcism.

Forgot about that! It all goes down to who you are facing at the end. Glyph of Salv is definitely good, but Glyph of Seal of Blood is handy when you are getting drained. Also, I don't really want to lose Glyph of Turn Evil =(

It's very situational, but my emphasis was that Glyph of Consecration shouldn't be in a PvP build in any case.

Your glyph link for exorcism still links to glyph effect adding a silence to Exorcism and that confused me for a second. Forgot that the glyph effect was changed to % increase in damage.

I played a little bit with your latest release, especially your rotation finder. Although I'm glad that both RAWR and Bellator's Spreadsheet finally estimate our potential dps pretty equal (+/- 50 DPS), there is a discrepancy concerning the recommended priority setup. Rawr is constantly telling that we should stick with CS > HoW > J > DS > Cons > Exo. Your tool is favoring Cons > CS > Exo > DS > J or DS > CS > Exo > J > Cons. Yes, there are dozens of other recommendations within 1% of your said favorites, e.g. Rawr's recommendation is only .11% or (in this special case) 7 dps behind.

Only more alarming than different best rotation results is our mana situation. I would not say we are mana fine considering a approximated time until oom of 250 seconds - including fully raidbuffs, sacred shield and with heavy use of [Dark Rune]'s and Lay on Hand!.
Your spreadsheet also indicates that there is a huge impact where judgement is placed in our rotation. Rotations starting with Judgement are mostly placed around 400 to 500 seconds. Manaeffiency doubled.

Can this be true?

It's only hit that is rated significantly higher (35-40%) then strength, expertise and strength are worth about that same.

You say glyph of LoH is a must, yet you don't use it on the suggested pve build, there's also some confusing information when you say hit is not so good as str, but then you say hit is a must. Overall good topic, but you need to review and re-write some parts of it, so you don't contradict and get people confused.

Its a tad misleading but the way it should be read is "hit is as good as strength until you've reached the melee hit cap, then strength pulls ahead and should be a priority." Ultimately the confusion lies in whether or not you are hitcapped in the gear you are wearing and the gems you've socketed (and for alliance, whether or not a draenei is present in your group).

Also It was mentioned in the 3.0 thread but if possible could we keep the BIS gear discussions to another thread, or at least create a finite list and be done with it very early on? Towards the later pages of our late ret dps thread it became difficult to sort through meaningful posts when everything was about one or two pieces difference in an otherwise identical set-up.

The DS glyph has absolutely no legitmate use at the moment, unless you are trying to break some gimmick record on loatheb.

You should be starting out this patch with Judgement, exorcism, and (consecration/SoB, I very strongly prefer consecration for the obvious DPS implications, but to each their own). For minors, probably the same as we use on live (Sense UD, LoH, BoM). For PvP, reasonable majors are likely Judgement, Exorcism, and (HoJ/SoB/Salv, on preference).

I've commented on Rawr vs. Bellator's before. The Priority Sequence in Rawr is (as far as I understand) based on Effective Cooldowns generated on-the-spot based on fight length, when you start HoW, and a few other factors (4 pc T7, etc).

In Rawr Endoscient models the various abilities for the appropriate time period, including HoW. At the end it takes the time an ability was last used divided by number of uses to determine effective cooldown. This is a living number and should be relatively accurate (barring latency, which I think he's upgrading to model).

In Bellator's it's poor old Excel. Therefore I had to generate Effective Cooldowns separately (see the FCFS thread) in Python. I use these Effective Cooldowns in a table, and Excel can then handle that degree of number crunching. Since it's static I did not model HoW - it's too variable based on when you hit 20% and how seriously DPS increases at that stage. To generate data for this and put it in Excel, the table would be huge, it would take me days to format and reference it properly - end result, not worth it.

As How starts to delay abilities it increases the importance of using your hard hitting abilities first. Otherwise based on priorities it's possible the HoW doesn't delay low DPS abilities (Exo or Cons), but does delay the high DPS ones (CS, DS, Judge). Moving Consecrate from 11 sec effective to 11.2 isn't huge. Moving CS from 6.2 to 6.4 IS huge. So chalk it up to HoW usage.

I suspect both would match if you could somehow turn HoW off in Rawr (probably possible to set it to 0% usage?).

As for mana - you are correct, time to OOM can get twice as bad (example from 400 seconds to OOM down to 200 seconds to OOM - which do you want on a 300 second fight?) depending on how low Judgement is on your priority list.

I've seen 9 second effective cooldowns on Judgement with 4 T7. You're losing 2 seconds on Judgement to gain more casts of CS, Exo, DS, Cons. More mana usage, less mana refund. The result is obvious.

But remember that this is worst case. Hitting every button exactly on cooldown - you have 4 DPS abilities and SS to sap mana, only 2 (Judge + DP) to gain. Out of range for 10 seconds? That's probably 20-30 seconds more until OOM. The modeling for mana is Worst Case Scenario - Patchwerk style. I modeled it so we can specifically note that it might be advantageous to not follow best DPS priority as it could lengthen Judgement effective cooldown to an unhealthy point.

25% JotW is probably going to be fine. Personally I still just don't like it's JotW or nothing. Shield, reflect, miss, etc and no mana return. If every ability gave 6-7% mana return individually, it would be far better (5 abilities, but 3 are on CD longer than Judgement, so you could net 25% if balanced right).

TLDR: Rawr isn't Bellator's and vice versa. Watch your Judgement priority, it can be possible to go OOM on a boss and you can probably control this.

@ stat weight nitpicks: Hit is now above STR until hitcapped, op updated stop sending pm's. I am not convinced expertise is better than STR even with the changes, but time and testing will tell - plus it feels odd that people might gem for expertise, we never have (even in sunwell).

@ exemplar: Thanks for the updated spreadsheet. As of the last PTR build (which is what we should be getting live in a couple hours) the SoB glyph actually does grant mana even if recoil is absorbed - I'll confirm it on live when it comes up.

@ aylen: HoW should actually be at the top of your clash pile... with 2pc T8 it has a ~90% chance to crit for ~6.6k, which beats CS even factoring in RV and seal procs (mostly because it's almost a guaranteed crit). DS is about equal to judgement because it triggers our now important seals, where judgement fills up our mana bar... this is where "skill" will come into play I suppose, when good paladins make the right choices at the right times (in other words, everything is variable, adapt to the situation).

@ broken links, glyph stuff ect: I have no control over wowhead or their ability to update things - please try and be patient when it comes to certain item/spell/talent links, this is why there is red text thats says NYI (not yet implemented). In the meantime the talent links go to MMOC's ptr calculator, which should give you what you need to know for talent builds... ignore the glyph loadouts because those were already there when I tossed the builds up :<

@ pvp glyphs: It really comes down to personal choice. I'll probably run judge/exo/turn evil myself, with a couple SoB glyphs in my bag just in case... but as this is mostly a pve thread I didn't put them in the glyph section. Maybe later on!