Cavaletta

Any more on the expertise/str thing? Keep seeing conflicting reports on here and other places...either cap expertise or...not?

Just seems since most of our damage is gonna be coming off swings now, having below cap is gonna end up biting in this ass. With the Glad libram getting dodge/parried on CS would also be a bad hit to AP.

Yea but most of our damage won't be coming from those two...

Just need a general range to aim for.

I certainly fear seeing *dodge* now that I'm reliant on seal procs.

Just wanted a number to shoot for from more knowledgeable theory&mathcrafters than myself.

Saying its less valuable than strength still leaves me with a question mark somewhere between 0-214 rating.

So wait till I get more expertise from ulduar gear. K.

So I DO want expertise, but I don't want to gem for it. T8.5 gloves here I come.

 

Exemplar

Because Exorcism and Consecration are spells they not affected by expertise.

I come up with:
Hit (to cap) > Str > Exp > (2) AP > Crit > Agi > ArmPen (if they get it working right) > Haste > Hit (over melee cap, under spellcap) > Spellpower.

So 2 AP is better than 1 crit. But 1 crit is better than 1 AP. 2 AP is compared to other stats in Bellator's because itemization for 2 AP is the same as 1 crit, 1 hit, etc.

The margin between Hit, Str, and Expertise is relatively small - Hit and Expertise became more valuable once we realized two-roll system.

I believe this is in line with Rawr and Redcape.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

trv186

To quote Exmeplar above "Hit (to cap) > Str > Exp > (2) AP > Crit > Agi > ArmPen (if they get it working right) > Haste > Hit (over melee cap, under spellcap) > Spellpower."

We should not aim for expertise cap unless by chance in an attempt to max out or str and hit we pick up items with expertise on them.

However, Rarw is saying expertise cap is required at costs of str. Also I had seen that Haste was better than armpen according to rawr.

Still at quite a loss which is more accurate. Even if the differences are slight if the stat priorities get mixed gearing can become quite different.

 

Exemplar

You're right, most of our damage won't come from Exo and Cons. Only about 15-18% of our total DPS.

It's enough to make Expertise less valuable than Str.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

flexbutt

The idea is that since hit affects all of our abilities AND our specials are on a 2-roll system, hit outweighs strength until capped.

The same idea is that since expertise DOESN'T affect all of our abilities and our specials are on a 2-roll system, strength overall still outweighs expertise (if only slightly).

From this you should gather that hit should be gemmed or enchanted for until capped (unlike 3.0) but expertise should come naturally on gear, and generally gemming strength is better (like 3.0)

 

trv186

Here is the quote for Rawr. If what exmemplar says is true than expertise cap is not required and we have a contradiction.

I know in 3.0 thread haste was higher than armpen and people were saying get exp and hit cap

Can we get some clarity on this?

I tend to use redcape/bellator's more myself but use rawr as a refrence for some comparison

 

flyingtoastr

Expertise applies to four of our abilities (Autoswing, CS, DS, SoB) while Hit rating applies to eight (the four preceding plus HoW, Judgement, Exorcism, and Consecration). Even with the latter four making up a smaller percentage of our total damage it makes perfect sense that Hit rating is so far and away more valuable than Expertise.

There isn't any "magic number" like "you need exactly 176.8 expertise rating". Expertise is simply a good stat, but not as good as hit or strength. It simply means that when you weigh item A with Strength and Expertise versus item B with Strength and Armor Penetration you will know which to wear.

 

Cavaletta

Thanks.

Unfortunately it seems like they were quite fond of armor pen all over ulduar gear. Thanks for your help.

 

Mist

I'm just now returning to the game after a long, much needed break. I played a rogue for 4 years so I'm well acquainted with the basics, and most of the advanced elements of theorycraft, but 4 days of playing a ret pally (lvl 78 and climbing) are just not enough to catch up. Can anyone cover the basics of PvE and PvP for Ret? I saw the specs in the initial post, they were quite helpful, but it seems the glyph information is broken.

 

Bobbo

Since the wowhead javascript interface is broken at the moment, can someone please post a list of recommended major glyphs? I can't tell what the 2nd on the list is and wowhead's item descriptions are not yet up to date.

 

beatific

I'm under the impression that this topic was discussed on the previous ret thread but I can't remember what the community decided. With the boost to haste rating is the Greater Speed enchant to cloak still worse than +22 agi? I thought someone said that it was a slight dps increase, but that might have only applied if we were Ulduar geared. Thanks for the clarification, I want to be as ready for tonight as possible.

 

trv186

"Unfortunately it seems like they were quite fond of armor pen all over ulduar gear. Thanks for your help"

With much of the gear I have seen and am eyeing for BIS in Ulduar atM I will have 2-3 pieces max which even have armpen on them. If there are more pieces yet to be discovered than I am sure we will be able to make an armpen free set.

It is also fairly easy to get hit and expertise capped in Ulduar. My personal favorite item for BIS i want to steal is the hard mode Freya TANKING cloak with 48 str red socket and a grip of expertise and hit. I will take the def rating as a side I guess lol.

As easy as it can be to cap hit and expertise can we reconcile the stat priority between Rawr and Bellator's/redcape?
Even if the difference is small it will result in greater changes overtime and I feel bad for all the misguided people posting that they are geming for expertise once their server goes live to cap it

 

Ahhnold

Glyph of Judgement, exorcism, and there is a debate about using Consecration vs SoB/M glyph.

 

Paul

Armor Pen was buffed by 25% for us. Haste by 30%.

Why is there a debate about SoB/SoM Glyph? Who needs mana at this point? The debate should be between AW Glyph and Consecration. Consecration wins that pretty easily, though, methinks.

 

Alleyra

Why would you be gemming for Expertise when every post in here, including the OP suggest NOT gemming for Expertise? Even searching through Exemplar's posts will yield the same result. There isn't a discrepancy. Read through the few pages in this thread and you'll see.

If you're asking about stat weights and their "discrepancy:" this was resolved weeks ago. You can find it here.

I know we're all excited here about new content: but really; these questions have been answered, repeatedly.

No, there is no debate. In terms of pure DPS yield, Judgement/Consecrate/Exorcism are it. Period. It's recommended that if you're having mana concerns to swap Exorcism for SoB.

Ghostcrawler: If there is a spec we want to avoid over-buffing so that we don't have to nerf them, it's Ret.

 

Paul

The only thing I'm wondering is why Rawr stopped working for me with this version and is somehow loading saved information from previous versions, causing some kind of issue and preventing me from even loading the program.

Where is it getting this saved info from? I thought deleting old versions/profiles and downloading the new one would be plenty, but apparently my comp tries to load previous information when loading up rawr, which it never completes.

 

• frmorrison

Agility is better, just look at the item weights. However, haste is getting close enough that the difference doesn't matter much.

Glyph of Avenging Wrath is bad, it makes you spend a lot of mana fast (likely will go OOM hitting HoW every 3 seconds) plus you have to time Wings when the target is below 20%.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Alleyra

Endoscient posted about this in the previous thread, but I'll repeat it here (not verbatim!):

There is an issue with the way the new Rawr files interact with the old Rawr files causing major errors. When loading up a character, load a fresh character from armory so that you're not getting potential problems.

More information can be detailed here.

Note: you no longer need to download the module, just download 2.2.0.7.

Ghostcrawler: If there is a spec we want to avoid over-buffing so that we don't have to nerf them, it's Ret.

 

trv186

If you look I posted a quote from Zurm on rarw saying GET EXPERTISE AND HIT CAPPED NOW

Hence the reason I am asking for an explanation. I know this was answered in previous threads but now all of a sudden Rawr is disagreeing with Bellator's spreadsheet.

"Your stat weights are off. It was determined that pre-cap in 3.1, hit > exp > str (not 100% sure about the rest). Both the spreadsheets and Rawr agree on this. Plus, giving actual weightings is misleading, as gear differences can alter this dramatically. Perhaps just put a general priority?

Edit: Forgot to mention, great job overall!

There's still a lot of loot that has yet to be discovered, if you're talking about ulduar loot. As for existing loot, try to make due with what you have, but get hit/expertise capped."

 

J1M

It doesn't really matter where bad information comes from. Posting it isn't a good idea. I am really tired of hearing about expertise.

 

Alleyra

Alrighty, here we go:

The long of the short of it is Hit cap is imperative. Expertise is important, but it's been recommended throughout the Ret Theorycraft threads to attain Expertise via gear, NOT via gemming. Strength is now a relatively comparable valuable raw stat as Expertise, (pending gear) but not as important as Hit is. This is confirmed in every single spreadsheet and even in the post that Zurm himself made. (found here.)

Edit: As Endoscient said: use the spreadsheets/Rawr to determine what will suit your needs.

Ghostcrawler: If there is a spec we want to avoid over-buffing so that we don't have to nerf them, it's Ret.

 

tarja

I don't mean to put words in his mouth, but I imagine that he was probably just referring to the fact that since Expertise is now almost as powerful as Strength (and never replaces Strength on gear), you will usually do the highest DPS by choosing pieces which get you close to the Expertise cap. This doesn't mean that it would ever be a good idea to replace Str with Expertise in a 1:1 ratio, such as gemming.

As a guideline, Expertise capping will often be in your best interest. But you'll need to evaluate the specific gear pieces that you have available, to determine whether this is true. This is where the Rawr optimizer function is incredibly useful.

 

Endoscient

This is where you should stay away from absolutes, both Expertise and Strength are close to each other. So which is better is going to depend on your gear. In my current Ret gear (not that amzing because my main is Holy, but okay) Strength is slightly better then Expertise. When I use the optimizer to find the BIS T7 level gear, Expertise pulls slightly ahead of Strength.

If you want accurate results, use Rawr or one of the spreadsheets. If you want general advice, try to get Hit capped (though don't go too crazy if you are slightly below) and then Strength and Expertise are approximately equal. With everything else being around 1/2 as good as Strength/Expertise.

 

• Zurm

Close. According to Rawr, expertise is actually very slightly better than str pre-cap. That being said, the difference is EXTREMELY small, and you should NOT regem for expertise...hit is another story. More likely than not, you will indeed get expertise capped or very close with a BIS ulduar set.

Edit: Endoscient explains the situation very well in the post above.

 

Redcape

One nitpick with spell ordering sub 20%: CS does more damage than HoW, so it should be the #1 priority. My sheet currently has CS doing 7539 damage per cast (counting in the seal proc) and HoW doing 7108 damage per cast. Since CS is also much cheaper it should be the priority to cast when you have that choice.