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Old 04/22/09, 5:03 PM   #496
Protovic
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Tarren Mill (EU)
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
Use CS > HoW > Judgement > DS > Consecration > Exorcism > Holy Wrath and ignore the rotations shown in Bellator's spreadsheet. However, the rest of the information in that sheet is solid.
Can you convince me that you are right? Not that I do not trust you, but I would like a bit of understanding here :P

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Old 04/22/09, 5:09 PM   #497
Arthaal
Don Flamenco
 
Arthaal's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Deathwing
To convince yourself: FCFS, highest DPS first. The thinking is right on the front page and it's what gives us the currently accepted CS>HoW>J>DS>Cons>Exo>HW. If you accept that FCFS is a good solution over a set rotation then "highest DPS" first should be a no-brainer and calculating DPS for each ability is trivial enough.

Percent modifiers R'US

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Old 04/22/09, 5:18 PM   #498
Platedpriest
Banned
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Tanaris
How do [Battlelord's Plate Boots] compare with [Melancholy Sabatons]

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Old 04/22/09, 5:21 PM   #499
Protovic
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Tarren Mill (EU)
Okay, thank you for responding

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Old 04/22/09, 6:27 PM   #500
yamamoto
Von Kaiser
 
yamamoto's Avatar
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Shattered Hand
Originally Posted by trv186 View Post
Ok for one Humanoid is not the tpe of mob in ulduar. So set it to other aka giants.
Two many profession items are missing from Rawr try checking for Belt of the titans on wowhead and adding it
Also Items like Frigid str of hodir and some of our t8 need to have their stats and socket bonuses updated as of the latest version of rawr
Sif's promise needed to have its str amount updated manually for me as well. If you change these things around then your number should be different

For example I am showing the new craftable LW boots as BIS and the new craftable plate belt as BIS as well. I wont post an entire new set of gear now because things will change once new items have been discovered.

Please dont do things like give yourself the buff "focus magic" etc because those are not guranteed raid buffs. Also giving yourself the dk enchant was kinda a fail idea as well. These numbers when you post them became irrelevant because the gear is obviously being biased by buffs you will not have
I manually changed Sif's. Mobs are now set to Giants, and I'll add the craftables soon. My weapon enchant has always been Berserking, I don't know where you are getting this DK Rune Enchant theorem from. The only buffs listed are the ones I, and most people should receive every raid (Kings, 10% AP, Might, ect.)

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Old 04/22/09, 7:55 PM   #501
skeleg
Glass Joe
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Stormscale
I'm probably only one of the few who actually liked the way SoB worked prior to the patch with the recoil. I mean - one of the best things the devs could do would be to rethink how recoil works as it relates to our overall dps. Both from a pvp and pve point of view. In fact, right now is probably the best time to look at it since sacred shield is actually working like it is supposed to.

Tieing the whole judgements and seals together with recoil damage sort of allow the player to decide when to use what ability. You want burst - sure, here you go. However, there is a cost associated when you do that. In fact, go ahead and do it as often as your cool downs allow - but at the rist of personal injury. Now you might say what about LoH or DS - well, those are again tied to cool downs which you can manage via forbearance or timers.

Utility is great. Putting the onus on the player to select which utility to use based on the situration is actually a great idea - to me anyway. There is cause, there is effect. Risk. Reward. In the end - back to back burst or survivabilty comes with a price in which case the Paladin has to choose.

Not sure if any of you every played Warhammer but they actually had a great idea like this tied to the bright wizards and combustion. And the classes dps was directly related to their combustion level. The side effect though was that combustion levels got higher so did the damage the wizard took in turn. Sure - healers and support one could dance around the danager - but it was not umcommon to kill oneself going for that extra killing blow.

A paladin using the old seal of blood in pvp while judged had great potential - but the recoild did as well. So tell me how many here who used that combo instead of SoC used it to the death? With those big hits came a very big risk if one was solo...

It was nerfed, adjusted, whatever, because it was abused in PvP. The risk was easy to mitigate with a healer. Double dps teams danced around it because something was killed quick enough so the paladin could recover by healing.

There was no risk high enough to grant the use. We cheated and therefore beat the system. Only to have the system come down and fix it. Same thing will more than likely happen to sacred shield in my opinion because it is just working too good...

Just my rant anyway. I like the idea of recoil damage. I also like choices. Risk, reward, cause, effect.

Currently the whole system has no risk like it did before. And SoC is utterly useless. I don't want something some other class has. Recoil would be one thing that puts us in our own league. And we should be smart enough to know when to use what seal, etc. We already did that on Thaddius for one example.

Regards,
skeleg

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Old 04/22/09, 8:36 PM   #502
saibot
Von Kaiser
 
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Human Paladin
 
Talnivarr (EU)
Originally Posted by trv186 View Post
Ok for one Humanoid is not the tpe of mob in ulduar. So set it to other aka giants.
Two many profession items are missing from Rawr try checking for Belt of the titans on wowhead and adding it
Also Items like Frigid str of hodir and some of our t8 need to have their stats and socket bonuses updated as of the latest version of rawr
Sif's promise needed to have its str amount updated manually for me as well. If you change these things around then your number should be different

For example I am showing the new craftable LW boots as BIS and the new craftable plate belt as BIS as well. I wont post an entire new set of gear now because things will change once new items have been discovered.

Please dont do things like give yourself the buff "focus magic" etc because those are not guranteed raid buffs. Also giving yourself the dk enchant was kinda a fail idea as well. These numbers when you post them became irrelevant because the gear is obviously being biased by buffs you will not have
The DK rune enchant and the 7(!) professions were used by me just to prove to him that it's impossible to get ~7,100 DPS in current gear and that he apparently does something wrong. Of course I know it's unrealistic to have 7 professions and a RotFC as a Ret Paladin.

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Old 04/22/09, 8:58 PM   #503
MasterLoco
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Mazrigos (EU)
Originally Posted by skeleg View Post
Currently the whole system has no risk like it did before. And SoC is utterly useless. I don't want something some other class has. Recoil would be one thing that puts us in our own league. And we should be smart enough to know when to use what seal, etc. We already did that on Thaddius for one example.
What was so special about Thaddius and how was it different from any other fight in Naxx regarding seals?

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Old 04/22/09, 10:07 PM   #504
 Mex
Sour Bear Mojo
 
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Mex
Tauren Shaman
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by MasterLoco View Post
What was so special about Thaddius and how was it different from any other fight in Naxx regarding seals?
You did more damage, and therefore took more damage from recoil, without an appropriate increase in health or mitigation.

Mechanics like Gluth's decimate, which are predictable, are fine. You simply don't judge until you get a heal, and lose a small amount of DPS. Random raid damage which coupled with recoil would be lethal isn't fine, and forces you to either risk death or drastically lower DPS, neither of which is attractive.

The seal's fine as it is now, with the recoil being shifted from judgement to the seal, and sacred shield becoming a very useful ability for helping to mitigate it. There are plenty of other ways to challenge DPS and make them consider damage versus survival, without tying it to specific class abilities.

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Old 04/22/09, 10:48 PM   #505
Engelier
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Darkmoon Faire (EU)
i almost created my BiS gear with Stealbreaker Embrace because i was ,,lucky,, today and get Tier8 Legs. And after i realized those legs are actually kilt. I survived hard times with my retadin but kilt is too much really.

And also, does Libram of Discord worth to get it ? Crusader strike is first priority on 6secs CD and libram adds 140 damage (thats what my tooltip says) while Divine storm effective CD is arround 12secs and adds 235 damage. Its better on aoe situations but it seems its worst on single target.

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Old 04/22/09, 11:03 PM   #506
 frmorrison
Protector
 
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Ashstrike
Human Paladin
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Engelier View Post
i almost created my BiS gear with Stealbreaker Embrace because i was ,,lucky,, today and get Tier8 Legs. And after i realized those legs are actually kilt. I survived hard times with my retadin but kilt is too much really.

And also, does Libram of Discord worth to get it ? Crusader strike is first priority on 6secs CD and libram adds 140 damage (thats what my tooltip says) while Divine storm effective CD is arround 12secs and adds 235 damage. Its better on aoe situations but it seems its worst on single target.
You will learn to love the Kilt (because it is part of our BiS).

Discord > the CS libram. However, the Deadly libram (you can get for 1300ish rating and some points) is better than both.

Remember that the damage bonus is affected by all the % modifiers.

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Old 04/23/09, 2:05 AM   #507
Piiqo
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Haomarush (EU)
Originally Posted by frmorrison View Post
You will learn to love the Kilt (because it is part of our BiS).

Discord > the CS libram. However, the Deadly libram (you can get for 1300ish rating and some points) is better than both.

Remember that the damage bonus is affected by all the % modifiers.
Actually, at least from what I'm getting as the best gear setup with rawr, Plated Leggings of Ruination - Item - World of Warcraft might be the best piece to go with our 4piece bonus.. It has no hit, and neither does the t8 helm, so it frees our other slots to provide it for us.

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Old 04/23/09, 3:39 AM   #508
aylen86
Piston Honda
 
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Human Paladin
 
Malygos (EU)
GC just mentioned a possible direction for our FCFS dilemma:

We like the new Seal / Judgement system and aren't likely to mess with that. What we would like to do is take say CS, DS and Exorcism, make one of them have no cooldown, and make the others something you want to do at the right time. Here are some dumb, mostly fake examples. They all have problems and aren't very original (because I spent all of 20 sec thinking of them) but are in the right vein. We have some actual ideas but aren't ready to share them yet.

1) Your Crusader Strike stacks something on a target. Divine Storm then does more damage per stack (but consumes the stacks?).
2) Your Divine Storm has a dot component. The closer you get a Crusader Strike to the final dot, the more damage it does, but its cooldown keeps you from spamming it.
3) When someone under the effect of your Retribution Aura (or whatever) is attacked, your Divine Storm lights up and you can then make them pay for the affront.
4) Your Divine Storm has a dot component with a very short duration. However Crusader Strike has no cooldown and extends the duration by one tick. Basically you have to hit CS three or four times in a row quickly to keep the whirlwind spinning.
Source: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Bravo Blizzard, Bravo.

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Old 04/23/09, 4:08 AM   #509
Maylander
Piston Honda
 
Human Paladin
 
Kor'gall (EU)
Originally Posted by Zurm View Post
What I would like to see in the ret changes, more than anything else, is some form of cycle. Somewhat short, repeatable, not requiring our face being burried in the action bars. While they are at it, make it more fun than that, and have proc-based events (eclipse or arms overpower mechanics come to mind) to make actual skill at WoW matter, not just skill at whack-a-mole. I hope if blizzard takes nothing else out of the recommendations they get, they understand this.

When I played my DK, or ret pre-3.0, I had a cycle. I knew what abilities were up from my combat log text, not from my action bars.
This actually made me laugh. I was thinking along those same lines the other day in Ulduar. I'm glad I'm not the only one spending a bit too much time staring at bars because of cooldowns - I pay attention to the fight in order to see when to move and so on, but other than that I'm completely absorbed by the CDs. It would be good if we finally got a more "standard" rotation, perhaps with a little variation from time to time (i.e some skills triggering from porcs, like free Howling Blast for Frost DKs).

Originally Posted by Piiqo View Post
Actually, at least from what I'm getting as the best gear setup with rawr, Plated Leggings of Ruination - Item - World of Warcraft might be the best piece to go with our 4piece bonus.. It has no hit, and neither does the t8 helm, so it frees our other slots to provide it for us.
Hmm, really? Unless hit capped, I'd say Warhelm of the Champion + T8.25 Gloves, Leggings, Chest, Shoulders is the best setup. Probably depends on the rest of the gear though, as the hit is wasted if you're above the cap.

Edit:
aylen86
Interesting post by GC! Seems like we might be getting more DKish mechanics. I don't mind at all, DKs are quite fun to play, and their rotations are generally more intuitive than ours.

Last edited by Maylander : 04/23/09 at 4:24 AM.

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Old 04/23/09, 6:13 AM   #510
moby3012
Glass Joe
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Gorgonnash (EU)
I've to say, that I'm currently a little bit confused about how everyone is rating the Wrathstone as a possible best in slot trinket, for me I did some calculations, between the [Wrathstone] and the comparable [Mirror of Truth]

First, let's compare the passive critical stike rating on both items, we have the

108 vs. 84 critical strike rating on the Mirror = On the passive side the Wrathstone is +24 critical strike rating superior to the mirror.


But now lets have a look at the exciting point:
The procc of the Wrathstone gives you 856 AP (on use) for 20 seconds with 2 minute cooldown, means you can use it manually but ideally 20s/120s = 1/6 of the combat. This gives you a "flat AP bonus" of ~143 AP

Of course the procc of Mirror of Truth is not "on use", but it has a very high procchance of 10% after passing the inner cooldown of 45s-50s, means you have to make at least 10 attacks in 10-15 seconds to have a very realistic chance of getting 1 procc every minute = 10s/60s = 1/6 uptime. So you can calculate this proc down the same way, I did it with the Wrathstone and you will get a "flat AP bonus" of ~167 AP
So 143 AP versus 167 AP for the Mirror means = ~24 AP more for the Mirror of Truth

Maybe I am totally wrong with this calculation, but as far as I see the Mirror of truth (which turned out to be inferior to trinkets like the Darkmooncard and the Fury of the Five Flights) is very close to the quality of the Wrathstone, so I cannot really understand, why the Wrathstone is included in nearly every Ulduar gear compilation here.

(please excuse me for my english, I tried my best, but I'm not a native speaker)

Last edited by moby3012 : 04/23/09 at 6:19 AM.

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