So what are you guys all spec'ing / glyphing for PvE?

Thanks for clearing that up.

Dude, just read the first page of this thread.
0/17/54 spec. Judgement/Consecrate/Exorcism glyphs.

From the OP:

This is not correct and should be adjusted.

The correct order to follow for "highest DPS first" is: CS > HoW > JoB > DS > Consecration > Exorcism > Holy Wrath, meaning we're using the same clash priorities we've always used (ignoring Conc vs DS nitpick for the moment) with the exception of CS being bumped to the very front.
As a matter of fact, our opening sequence will most likely remain the same as you'll probably want to use JoB as your first move when running in since it has longer range/to apply debuffs, then proceed from there with the above priorities.

I've ran numbers on this and it seems to be universally true, regardless of theoretical/practical cooldowns as well as set bonuses (both 2 piece and 4 piece of T7/T8).

Any idea why the spreadsheet is returning a different priority sequence (with mostly bis gear if that's relevant)?

It's telling me Cons-CS-Ex-J-DS...

I would assume that discrepancies for rotations arise mostly from the fact that consecration / exorcism don't scale with weapon damage, whereas other abilities do. So if you're like me and wearing half BiS gear but with a H HoL axe, you may see something different? This is nothing more than speculation though, weapon damage may in the end not have such a large effect, and the discrepencies could be originating elsewhere. As with 90% of these sorts of issues, I suspect that the answer will vary slightly depending on exact numbers that people are boasting.

Please indicate which one you mean by "the spreadsheet" in the future, I'm assuming you mean Bellator's/Exemplar's automated check?

As I understand it, Exemplar uses a Python script (created by "Left" here) to model a fixed time and determine the best outcome depending on reduced clashes the script spits out.

The problem with this (as I've tried to explain before) is that any perceived gains by such a custom rotation (in a sense, it becomes a rotation, not FCFS + priorities for clashes at this point, because its benefit is tied to performing exactly those couple hundred moves in exact order for a fixed amount of time to net any benefits) are nullified or even detrimental as soon as you make a mistake or suffer any varying lag, because they are based on the avoidance of specific clashes several dozen/hundred moves ahead of time (which is completely unrealistic), correct me if my understanding is wrong here.

Furthermore, if you look at the final results, half the possible suggestions are within <.5% DPS difference, the top few are at <.01% or less, meaning in simple English "it's completely irrelevant what you choose", according to the script. As said, the reason behind this is because it models a "rotation" (=it models the benefits of clashes avoided by a sequence of moves over a fixed time) rather than what we're promoting which is FCFS + priority for clashes which should work at "any" time under "any" conditions and do not net their advantage by unrealistic "potential" clash avoidance.

I'm sure proponents of the script could turn the coin the other side now and argue the same thing, FCFS + priority based on highest DPS "may or may not" potentially lead to additional clashes, but this only further underlines my point:

->Basing our sequence on clash reduction is unrealistic given practical conditions (anything that would require over a handful of moves in advance to gain said benefit). This is a variable you cannot control. The only thing that matters is simply damage lost over time by delaying abilities that yield less DPS.


Edit: My calculations are based on the latest Redcape ability numbers (though I'm sure using any other spreadsheet or rawr would provide the same result at this point).

I'd like to propose an alternate 'best' PvE spec (ok 2nd best since I'm stubborn and refuse to not spec SoC)

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Still prot/ret split, but with 2 pts in imp righteous fury instead of stoicism. Stoicism just seems useless to me outside PvP (unless a lot of bosses aoe stun in ulduar), but imp righteous fury could be put up before popping divine sacrifice to reduce damage taken by 4-6%. (could drop the last point of PoJ for 3/3 imp fury)

It doesn't stack. It's been pointed out to death in the 3.0 ret thread.

I wouldn't use divine sacrifice without the use of divine shield. It would, atleast in 25 man raids, simply insta-gib you and 4% off won't change that. The stun reduction on stoicism however works on stuns in pve too.

It's a minor thing, but atleast it's something.

Indeed, after running the two slightly-less bugged bosses for 10-man (FL and Rezorscale) I can say with pretty much certainty that Divine Shield is pretty much positively required before popping Divine Sacrifice. It's actually a fairly useful ability, especially on certain trash mobs where people were too stupid to avoid the fire whirlwinds, but the double GCD is somewhat crippling it from becoming a true "oh shit button".

Divine protection wouldn't be enough? Isn't it off gcd for tanking purposes? And that way we wouldn't nerf our dps for the duration, and maybe have divine shield for an "oh shit" moment of our own, if the fight lasts long enough.

That could work, although leaving yourself with 25% health (half of 150%) would be dangerous if you take any more damage immediately after.

I wouldn't be against it, but 30% less stun duration, -60 sec CD on BoP and +2 sec on HoF sounds like (a bit) more bang for my buck.

Assuming CS > JoB > DS > Consecration > Exorcism

This is how our rotation will look like, unless im way off?



Im probably wrong, but dont shoot me now.

Divine Protection is off the GCD (which makes it more ideal for a macro), but you take a hellofalot of damage while it's up.

For instance, Ingis' Flame Jets on 10 man cause 6k damage to everyone. With DP/DSac you would take 1200 damage from everyone else in the raid plus 3k for yourself for a total of 13800 damage. It's a lot to take in one second, but bearable.

On 25-man though Flame Jets hit everyone in the raid for 10k damage. Even with Shield Wall you're now taking 53000 damage instantly. In other words, you're dead.

The new talent trees are a bit strange to me as a Ret-Pally. I have played a bit and I disagree with the recommendation which includes Divine Sacrifice.

Its a waste of five points but does a combination of "Swift Retribution" and "Aura Mastery" makes sense?
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...0&version=9767

The mages in my raid are screaming "YES! MORE HASTE!" :-)

Lear
The World of Warcraft Armory

Aura Mastery doesn't affect the secondary benefits from talents like Swift Retribution or Improved Devotion Aura.
This is another one of those things that's been brought up a couple of times between here, the last thread, and the simple questions thread. Maybe add that to the OP?

The tooltip says: Up to a maximum of 150% of the Paladin's health. Considering proper functionality, using Divine Sacrifice in combination with Divine Protection should bring you down to 25% and not lower. This should be tested and probably reported as a bug when it kills you instantly.

@ahez: Post signing and armory linking is against the forum rules. Please refrain from doing so again in the future.

Sorry and thanks for the recapitulation. The forum contains so much info... sometimes it seems easier to ask again.

Lear

I spent much of last night attempting to follow the before mentioned CS - DS - JoB - Cons - Exo clash resolution rotation with some degree of success; partially due to 3.1 changes my damage altogether was much higher despite not having any strings of extreme RNG luck. Anyhoo, I found throughout the night that in actual practice it felt much more manageable to start the string with JoB while running in, allowing me to drop Cons on the boss' feet just a few seconds earlier than planned.

It's a bit too anecdotal and for that I apologize, but tonight I'll most likely attempt to shift to CS - JoB - DS - Cons -Exo.

Could be just my personal gearset, but in Bellator's I'm finding CS, and DS (in that order) are both slightly ahead of my HoW for damage. Exo also ahead of HoW on Undead/Demon (due to auto-crit). And this is with the broken (lower than should be) ArmPen modeled. When they fix ArmPen, CS and DS will be even more superior.

Your understanding is wrong, but results are vaguely correct. Rawr generates effective cooldowns programmatically based on your gear, buffs, etc. (I believe - this is where I could be wrong) and including Hammer of Wrath. I generated effective cooldowns once by an external program not including Hammer of Wrath.

Using HoW in your priority below 20% does affect effective cooldowns. This can, in theory, cause a clean, nice pretty-on-paper priority sequence to go to hell and become crap when you hit 20%. In personal experience, sub-20% becomes a (reasoned, intelligent) button-mashing frenzy, regardless. 1 more ability on 6 sec cooldown leads to few free GCD. As we know, simply hitting any available button is better than waiting on another, better ability. Therefore to a degree mashing the "wrong" button immediately is better than overthinking.

Apples and oranges - we cannot directly compare Rawr's prioritization with Bellator's spreadsheet. Fights are interesting and vary - in general I'd recommend try to hit your highest damage ability which can reach the target. 6 yds from target slap that Judge, Exo, or DS until you're close enough for the CS that's available.

Priorities are well-considered suggestions for Patchwerk-style fights, not absolutes or rotations. Ret DPS is fairly forgiving as long as you're not just leaving things idle. I'm personally inclined to try several possible priority setups and see which works best for me. My personal latency and reaction time may wind up making something non-standard my ideal because I accidentally stumble into the fewest clashes - or it may be recommended rotation is my personal perfect fit.

Also, a side note on priority - I'm finding that on bosses you want to move into position (i.e. tank is probably pulling from 30 yd distance) that Exo, then Judge while move to melee is functional - leverage Exo's 30 yd range, then Judgement's 10 yd.

A quick search finds me at least 1 3.5speed Weapon in 25man, and 2 in the 10man. In fact, one dropped for me last night.

Okay guys and gals - Itemization Question.

Last night I got the Plate helm off of Flame Levi. Currently, I'm using the Val helm and the crude discolored gaunts. I also have Zelicks Gaunts. What I was thinking of running with is the New helm+the Zelicks.

The change in gear would yield:

+20 str
-45 hit
+41 haste
+43 expertise
-43 crit

With my current setup i'm hit capped at like 8.16% or so, I dont know the exact figure for the rating tied to it 268 i think. And my expertise is a little lower at 3%.

Do you guys think sacrificing a little crit rating and hit (and my 4 set, but it's not as good as it once was) is worth the gains in the AP,haste,expertise. I havent done the math due to armory being down, and I will more than likely be very close to hit capped still.

and on a side note, which food are you guys using? is the 40str still the way to go, or do you guys think i should use whatever food that im under the cap on ie hit and expertise.