JoL heals are "helpful" but far from "must have" and very far from shafting an group healer because of retri heals. It will never be a viable replacement for targeted group heals. Also, without the current JoL we become a liabilty for the healers thanks to our beloved SoB recoil.
I agree that JoL will not ever "replace" a healer, however it IS a must have in some encounters. Two hard modes we just started working on comes to mind: Vezax and Deconstructor. I absolutely disagree with you in this case, they are mandatory for these two fights at the minimum, and a few others.
Originally Posted by OnTheHissay
Steelbreaker has a damage aura, of course it's gonna get a lot of hits in, just like Sapphiron. It's been like this entire wotlk, so it's not like it's just beginning now. Most fights JoL heals for like 700-1,5k which isn't even close to real healers. When the entire raid takes damage aura ticks on close intervals it's bound to be good, and it's a good thing that it is.
Fortunately, Ulduar is chock full of fights (especially hard modes) with consistant, high raid damage. That's where it shines, and that's where it is nothing short of required in my view. JoL is the only buff we provide that no other class/spec combo can truly replicate... sure holy/prot can cast it, but it would be FAR less effective.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Lowering the AP co-efficient and increase the SP co-efficient on JoL to equalise it somewhat between Holy and Ret paladins might be an idea, so that raids without ret paladins are somewhat less punished. This would really gimp Prot's JoL though, as it tends to have lower AP than ret, and lower SP than both Ret and Holy.
Prot's JoL is already gimped for exactly the reasons you stated. This is why every paladin thread has generally agreed that your Prot paladin, if you use one, should judge either Wisdom for 100% uptime or Justice to keep his JotJ from getting knocked off. It's not going to bother prot paladins at all to mess with JoL coefficients, except maybe for soloing.
JoL is not a healer and will not steal a raid healer spot. However, it is an excellent raid utility in that it helps smooth damage spikes, especially in AOE raid damage Ulduar.
Your healers can focus on the important jobs (MT healing, single/few target spike damage, etc), then top off the raid. Far lesser chance of wipe through attrition (hitting berserk because your DPS slowly dies across the fight).
JoL is a raid band-aid. It doesn't stop the bleeding, but it often keeps someone alive long enough to reach the hospital.
Edit: Unrelated, but to avoid double-post. Just released a 3.1.2 version of Bellator's spreadsheet - see first post for locations. Should contain "up to the minute" gear changes, however I have yet to see verifiable* socket bonuses on some hard mode items, therefore they have no socket bonuses in the spreadsheet. This means they are potentially slightly weaker than in actuality. As some weapons are changing almost daily at the moment, it will be out of date shortly and users may need to tweak information on the Gear tab appropriately.
*By verifiable I mean showing on Wowhead or reliable screenshots from a source such as MMO-Champ. Anecdote and "I think" doesn't cut it for me.
Last edited by Exemplar : 05/20/09 at 10:02 AM.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
becouse i was about to drop ENG to pick up JC or BS, and if the dps increase is better then the ap i would gain by adding those gems or the sockets for BS, i wont even change professions, becouse i belive blizz is gonna improve eng in the future with new head pieces, i hope lol.
1) You're misunderstanding. In a vacuum, ignoring all outside sources, yes pyro rockets > crusher. However, if you factor in the DPS bonus from extra stats from JC or extra sockets from BS, Engineering falls quite far behind. You SHOULD drop engineering (from a min/max perspective).
2) Technically, posts like yours belong in the Simple Questions/Answers thread, or at least the Rawr Ret thread or BIS thread.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
1) You're misunderstanding. In a vacuum, ignoring all outside sources, yes pyro rockets > crusher. However, if you factor in the DPS bonus from extra stats from JC or extra sockets from BS, Engineering falls quite far behind. You SHOULD drop engineering (from a min/max perspective).
Been looking at those same things lately. From what I've read, every profession ends up giving a 64 AP bonus (2x 16 STR for us). It's possible the pyro rockets give a dps equivalent to ~64 AP more than a normal hand enchant?
Been looking at those same things lately. From what I've read, every profession ends up giving a 64 AP bonus (2x 16 STR for us). It's possible the pyro rockets give a dps equivalent to ~64 AP more than a normal hand enchant?
Wrong. If you read the first post you will understand why BS/JC professions are better.
1. Both JC and BS give additional Strength. 32 strength is not equal to 64 ap when you factor in raid buffs and talents
2. Most the other professions(including engineering) make you give up an enchant which would already be on your gear in order to gain that special buff. JC and BS do not however. They give you that in addition to your current glove/bracer enchant etc. JC and BS are also more flexible in such cases as JC making it easier to match socket bonuses and meet meta requirements.
From a min/max point of view JC and BS are there to stay.
Been looking at those same things lately. From what I've read, every profession ends up giving a 64 AP bonus (2x 16 STR for us). It's possible the pyro rockets give a dps equivalent to ~64 AP more than a normal hand enchant?
No. I can't find the source, so you're going to have to take this with a grain of salt, but someone had posted before about the relative values of professions toward our DPS. Most were 64AP, JC/BS were a bit higher and Engineering was in the 40's. It's not even close. When it comes to professions that maximize your DPS in raids, JC/BS win without question.
Edit: Beaten by TRV.
Originally Posted by trv186
2. Most the other professions(including engineering) make you give up an enchant which would already be on your gear in order to gain that special buff. JC and BS do not however. They give you that in addition to your current glove/bracer enchant etc. JC and BS are also more flexible in such cases as JC making it easier to match socket bonuses and meet meta requirements.
Bit of a nitpick here, you're looking at it wrong. Yes, professions like LW or Inscription add to an existing enchant, but the relative bonus is the same. BS gives you two extra sockets, lets say purely for argument's sake worth 64 ap. Inscription shoulder enchant gives you a total of over 104 ap... because it takes the original 40 and adds to it. With the exception of engineering (anyone who took this had to know it was bad for PvE...), all the crafting professions were designed to give you the equivalent of 64 AP worth of iLvl, it just so happens that with the JC (more socket bonuses inflate this) and BS (we cheat with str, so this helps more than pure ap) bonuses they have a slight edge.
Last edited by Zurm : 05/20/09 at 2:51 PM.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
In reference to JC/BS youre also still comparing these profs based on blue quality gems. Don't forget that Epic gems will also be coming in the future, not to mention Meta gem conflict resolutions.
Bit of a nitpick here, you're looking at it wrong. Yes, professions like LW or Inscription add to an existing enchant, but the relative bonus is the same. BS gives you two extra sockets, lets say purely for argument's sake worth 64 ap. Inscription shoulder enchant gives you a total of over 104 ap... because it takes the original 40 and adds to it. With the exception of engineering (anyone who took this had to know it was bad for PvE...), all the crafting professions were designed to give you the equivalent of 64 AP worth of iLvl, it just so happens that with the JC (more socket bonuses inflate this) and BS (we cheat with str, so this helps more than pure ap) bonuses they have a slight edge.
My point was more along the lines that people keep looking at profession bonuses and saying "LW is so much more, Tailoring is so much more, etc" When they have often times forgotten that they give up a cloak enchant or a bracer enchant.
In reference to JC/BS you're also still comparing these profs based on blue quality gems. Don't forget that Epic gems will also be coming in the future, not to mention Meta gem conflict resolutions.
Yes JC is somewhat broken now because there are no epic gems. However that will more or less level the playing field between JC and BS. I do not see how new epic gems will make meeting a meta requirement any easier though the epic non jeweler gems will not be prismatic . Also depending on the socket bonuses of the gear we have by the time epic gems are out JC gains a bonus benefit from free socket bonuses due to the gems being prismatic. Also do not forget these gems offer a lot of flexibility if you need them to help you reach hit cap or expertise cap in your gear.
JoL is not a healer and will not steal a raid healer spot. However, it is an excellent raid utility in that it helps smooth damage spikes, especially in AOE raid damage Ulduar.
Your healers can focus on the important jobs (MT healing, single/few target spike damage, etc), then top off the raid. Far lesser chance of wipe through attrition (hitting berserk because your DPS slowly dies across the fight).
JoL is a raid band-aid. It doesn't stop the bleeding, but it often keeps someone alive long enough to reach the hospital.
You are under selling a Ret's JoL and for many guilds it does replace a raid healer.
You are under selling a Ret's JoL and for many guilds it does replace a raid healer.
JoL is NOT a replacement for a raid healer, it is merely a cushion. A healer can react to who actual NEEDS heals and who doesn't, and JoL is always going to be very good for rogues/enh shaman, and mediocre for mages/locks. That being said it is mainly an arguement of symantics. Last night on our deconstructor hard mode kill, our healers were running OOM at the end. We had six dedicated healers, and yet I placed second on effective healing. Did I relieve some raid healing stress, especially during tantrums? Yes. Would I have been able to react to people with bombs or the MT like a true healer? No.
I suppose the best way to put it is that every hard mode we've done so far (sans Hodir, the exception to the rule) has required 6 healers plus the healing from JoL. Since most hard modes have powerful or consistant AoE damage for a significant amount of time in the fight, JoL is going to be very good.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
I've seen alot of Paladins using the FCFS as following:
CS > DS > Exorcism > HoW > Judgement > Cons.
I do it myself and with my current gear I can pump 5.2k DPS single target on most bosses in Ulduar.
I'm not sure about the ((Exorcism > HoW)). But to me it seems like Exorcism is doing more damage than HoW?
I'm not sure about the ((Exorcism > HoW)). But to me it seems like Exorcism is doing more damage than HoW?
It isn't a matter of what does the most flat damage for FCFS if your goal is to maximize sustained DPS. It all comes down to cooldowns and DPS.
Look at Exorcism versus Crusader Strike. Exorcism on average hits for harder than a CS/SoB combo. However, the cooldown for Exorcism is 15 seconds while the cooldown for CS is only 6 seconds. That means that for every second you delay using Exorcism you lose 6.25% of its DPS (basically if you extend the effective cooldown from 15 to 16 seconds the total DPS of the ability will be 6.25% lower). However for each second you delay using CS you lose 14.29% of the ability's DPS. So you end up losing less total DPS by prioritizing the slightly less damaging CS over Exorcism because of the cooldown differences.
Naturally it is a lot more complex than this when you take into account all of our attacks (and of course there are other factors, such as multiple targets making Consecration and Divine Storm more DPS and mana returns from Judgement), but it is the basic principle upon which the FCFS clash resolution is determined.
High JoL up time is certainly a necessity for hard modes in Ulduar, however I do not see why that is a problem. A very strong JoL and a few decent raid utilities (sac, BoP, AoW flashes) are the only reason to bring a ret pally to a raid right now. Our dps isn't amazing and outside of JoL we bring no unique buffs (JoL not being truly unique, ours being far superior to prot or holy's). JoL is the reason we get our invites right now, it is the reason your raid leader doesn't just recruit another rogue, so in that sense I would say it really isn't OP at all, it is simply every bit as necessary as unleashed rage or curse of elements.
1k JoL hits and a 50% better Ret Aura are the only unique Ret Pally buffs, however that is a major design point. You can get 500 JoL hits from a Prot/Holy as a backup if you didn't have a Ret. However, the Ret JoL is the best, so all the top 50 guilds have a Ret.
However, even if Ret JoL was nerfed to Holy/Prot levels, I still think top 50 guilds would want a Ret because of the all the buffs given in one player (backup is important!).
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
High JoL up time is certainly a necessity for hard modes in Ulduar, however I do not see why that is a problem. A very strong JoL and a few decent raid utilities (sac, BoP, AoW flashes) are the only reason to bring a ret pally to a raid right now. Our dps isn't amazing and outside of JoL we bring no unique buffs (JoL not being truly unique, ours being far superior to prot or holy's). JoL is the reason we get our invites right now, it is the reason your raid leader doesn't just recruit another rogue, so in that sense I would say it really isn't OP at all, it is simply every bit as necessary as unleashed rage or curse of elements.
I have to disagree with this entirely. While a Rogue may have stronger DPS, I dont believe a Rogue can BoP healers, Cleanse, AoW heal, provide a damage reduction for our tanks and themselves, provide any sort of Blessings (Kings, Might, Wisedom, Sanct (if you have a Tankadin)), as well as provide JoL's. So really, Ret is just as important (if not more so) to raids than a Rogue.
Aside from JoL, isn't a very good reason to bring a Ret pally sanctified retribution? The hunter raid spec is survival now and that leaves ret being the only class that brings the 3% damage buff by default. I don't see much reason to bring more then one though unless you have a shortage of holy or prot paladins.
Retribution brings all the buffs (3% haste, damage, crit) in one player. Add in the survivability and utility of paladin abilities and it is rather essential. Yes the JoL discussion has covered most things but you cannot get away from the fact that is an extremely good raid constant heal.
Going back to the Divine Sacrifice issue. Are people noticing that it will still last the full duration under bubble?
I have to disagree with this entirely. While a Rogue may have stronger DPS, I dont believe a Rogue can BoP healers, Cleanse, AoW heal, provide a damage reduction for our tanks and themselves, provide any sort of Blessings (Kings, Might, Wisedom, Sanct (if you have a Tankadin)), as well as provide JoL's. So really, Ret is just as important (if not more so) to raids than a Rogue.
No but rogues do give: Tricks of the trade(which is a damage and threat increase for tanks), Interrupts and 3% crit or 4% melee damage taken buffs. You can't just mention our additionals without mentioning theirs and like you say you can't really compare the classes in such a manner of either or since A!=B...
What I think should be noted is that having so much utillity and not enough DPS is a dangerous position as we know the most important factor in retribution DPS is hitting a DPS spell every cooldown now using Art of war, Cleanse, Hands and Divine sacrifice (and in that case divine shield which is -50% damage for 12 seconds) Will definately cost you DPS. While none of these abilities is definately going to save lives or the raid and if they do it is rare situations where something has gone wrong. I also highly doubt our DPS is modelled around using Divine shield in every fight which prehaps it should with divine sacrifice being in our raid spec.
I'd also disagree on blessings in some situations mana spring and battle shout by a DPS warrior can replace might and wisdom without being too much of a loss (although its never needed these days) and disc priests provide the equivalent to sanctuary making kings the only buff a paladin is providing.
Im not going to argue that Ret doesn't deserve a raid spot since our judgement uptime is better than Holy (which is in itself a major design flaw of the class) and we bring alot of raid buffs in one package. I am just saying your reasoning is not fully thought out.
Worth mentioning: All these buffs are covered by bringing one Retadin. Most raids have several rogues, mages, warlocks, etc, but they all have one Retadin, and wouldn't even consider a second. In Naxxramas, it was certainly possible to bring several Retadins, but right now that's not really an option if you want to beat certain hard mode enrage timers (mainly Thorim before the buff stacking gets too high, Hodir and XT).
Personally, I think the problem is not our dps, but the dps of certain classes - "bring the player, not the class" is definetly not the case anymore when Mages, Rogues and Warlocks are doing 7k single target dps, and everyone else is 2k behind them (with the possible exception of Shadow Priests). I'm fine with dps classes being "slightly ahead" of hybrids, but we're not talking about slightly ahead here: Some classes are currently doing more damage than our ideal BiS setup can do in Rawr.
"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.
If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.
If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." - Sun Tzu, Art of War
Going back to the Divine Sacrifice issue. Are people noticing that it will still last the full duration under bubble?
I think it may have been mentioned in the Protection Paladin thread, but it seems that the damage cap for Divine Sacrifice only counts effective damage taken. This may or may not be intended, but for now that is how it is.
I have noticed several post where people have advised against two Pallys judging the same thing (etc.. both judge light). If there are two Pallys judging light are the effects less dps for both or is it just less healing from the JoL or both? I ask because i have noticed that i do close to 1k better DPS in 10 man Ulduar where I am the only Retadin than when my guild runs 25 man Naxx (where a Pally should really shine due to the extra damage we deal undead targets) and brings our other Retadin who judges light as well. And if two ret pallys shouldnt judge the same thing what should the second pally judge? Should the higher DPS pally take light whie the other takes wis?
Also on another pally note If two ret pallys have ret aura up and the effects do not stack then who gets the DPS from having it up? Is the damage divided by 2 where each pally gets equal dps?
05/20/09, 9:06 AM
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