trv186

They do state they are redesigning SOC and Seal of Corruption. How we do not know. They are not leaving them the same so don't freak out yet. Maybe they will make them just like Blood ETC.

A shorter CD on our hardest hitting attack is really nice and the EXO change is really just a PVP type thing. I never used the flash heals in raids ne ways.

I am sure you will have time to torrent in raids and honestly I rarely even need Divine plea to keep myself mana positive.

I do foresee us speccing less into prot with these changes and more into RET assuming 1 extra point in SOC and points in vindication possibly.

 

HamSlammer

Depends on how they rework Vengeance/Command. However, depending on which one they intend to be the superior Seal, we may have to dump point from Protection into Holy for Seals of the Pure.

 

Fisker

Well the prot talents aren't as worthwhile if they're removing the recoil anyways, so i don't think it'll be a problem.

 

Gomba3333

I don't think its really an AOE nerf, because DS already could proc Seal of Command and Seal of Vengeance anyways. In fact, depending on how far the buff the seals, this may be an overall DPS buff, simply because of the glyphs associated. SoB glyph was simply a mana return source, SoV and SoC glyphs are pretty potent DPS boosts. If the seals do as much damage as SoB did before, then we are looking at either 20% more Seal damage or 15 more expertise as glyph choices, which is huge. Obviously they'll probably not go that far, but that, in addition to 4s Crusader Strike giving us more RV procs and more seal damage, we could see good things out of this.

As far as Exorcism goes, I don't think they'll remove the cooldown simply to prevent ret paladins from standing back in "no melee" periods of fights and mashing their exorcism key till the cow comes home. As fun an idea as holy mages in plate sounds, it'd probably have some balance issues.

 

• Zurm

Have you done mimiron-25 hard mode? I can assure you having DS is quite important.

From my understanding, if they want vengeance AND command to be viabile for pvp or pve, command is going to be for pvp and vengeance for pve, because there is no way a DOT effect is going to be good in pvp where you need burst (especially with a lowered CS damage).

If they want to keep CS damage the same in terms of dps, they'll have to make it do about 2/3 of the damage it currently does, but the extra seal usage will be a massive boost to sustained DPS. Also, this will hopefully allow minimal use of consecrate in our rotation, though its going to take a good deal of number crunching to be sure.

 

• frmorrison

Regarding the 3.2 change to Exo, you don't need to watch for the AoW proc.

Just make this macro:
/cast Exorcism
/stopcasting

This means your character will only use Exo if it is an instant cast, otherwise you do nothing except your character appears to cast but you don't really stop swinging.

I am interesting to see the changes to Command on the PTR. Currently it is a 1 second cooldown on procs of the Seal, so in AoE situations Command is weak when you use Divine Storm.

The bad side is with 4 second CS, you will nearly be GCD locked, so not a lot of AoW healing (I like healing when waiting for cooldowns, but it is likely overheal anyway). The skill cap doesn't seem to be increased (assuming you use the Exo macro), unless you have to Seal swap (Vengence for AoE and Command for Single?).

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Covertghost

Unless they drastically lower or remove exo CD, consec will still be used just as much as now.

 

Tonyk

I'm reading it as "Seal of Vengeance for PVE and Seal of Command for PVP". If that is the case then we will have to spec for Seals of the Pure. If Vindication is a good raid debuff I will probably include that in my spec as well, which means I have to lose Divine Sacrifice.

Interesting changes. I hope to see the PTR soon.

 

trv186

It is quite important but with such a long CD on Bubble and considering the fact it can still be used just not as effective as when RET I would take the increased dmg. Faster DPS = more phase changes on mimi = less fires to deal with

II am hopeful for these changes it will make the class more involved and we can potentially use better glyphs !

20% more Seal damage or 15 more expertise would be much nicer than consecrate CD imo.

Also keep in mind if we do have to consecrate less often in this new rotation we should have a lot more mana and need less divine plea and torrent. Consecrate is a huge mana sink atm. I see it more of aoe situations or if you time ur rotation right u may be able to squeeze it in once every 3rd rotation or so etc.

Edit: im too tired today and did not read correctly

 

• Arikah

Okay, so with blood removed and SoV basically functioning like blood once fully stacked... I'm seeing large damage increases on the horizon :> Also forseeing a shift to 5/x/57 builds, SotP will be a huge buff for ret. Gotta say I'm pretty excited to see this PTR but here's hoping for a gap closer still...

 

blacksuit

Except they said they are lowering the damage:

"we are lowering the cooldown and damage of Crusader Strike"

No way to tell if they intend to increase or decrease the DPS of CS. They may lower it to compensate for added DPS from more seal procs, or they may not. This is the sort of thing that gets changed during patch iteration.

 

Fisker

PTR 3.2 Patch Notes on MMO-Champion

 

Arthaal

If you reread the paragraph you yourself quoted, they specifically state "reduced cooldown and damage".

The SoV changes should be good - free expertise with the glyph is also a nice option once that change goes through. I agree with frmorrison though, hardly seems to be ramping up the difficulty level at all. It certainly addresses burst however, smaller CSs, already small Judgements since the change to SoB (SoV judgements aren't hitting any harder are they? Need to double check the modifier on those) and cast time on Exo means running towards the target will almost always be a better idea in PvP unless it's to finish them off or with an AoW proc in tow.

Percent modifiers R'US

 

Gomba3333

Welp, there is our gap closer.

 

vorda

Am I the only one missing a change that keeps us away from spamming cooldowns the entire fight? Something more proc based?

As it is now, these changes make no difference at all in the playstyle of paladin. We'll keep using a CD smashing FCFS with no DoT uptime/rotation procs at all.

 

Exemplar

Only think I haven't seen mentioned is with SoV we get a free rolling DoT in addition to the % weapon damage SoB copy-over. Not bad. SotP is also going to be extremely tasty - I'm expecting they'll need to remove SoV from the talent and make it SoR only.

Only downside is the heavy movement fights we'll have people QQ that their SoV stack dropped and they had to restack with 5 hits - the old stacking trinket argument.

Good news: sounds like at least marginally more DPS.
Bad news: it's still button mashing and "good" Ret are still based on low latency and spamming. Especially with that Exo macro (nice job on that, BTW!). Fewer free GCD (since more CS on the lower CD) means less chance for the excellent Ret to pull ahead via cleanse, instant FoL (fewer with the AoW+Exo). If anything we're going to see more Ret homogenization - everyone in the same few hundred DPS.

Eagerly await PTR responses - especially want to know if Exo will reset swing. Both full 1.5 cast and instant versions checked separately.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

Arthaal

The exo change is the proc based mechanic... uninteresting as it is. It's even less interesting in that the AoW changes mean it only procs off melee hits, not specials.

That being said, they've effectively neutered burst even more. Seal of Command is specifically mentionned as having a smaller judgement effect, CS is down to 75% weapon damage to offset the lower cooldown and Exo might, occasionally be instant - though in PvP the choice between healing and damage (especially in 2s) may make that burst option a tough one.

The changes to resilience, more importantly, are going to kill us. They appear to specifically target classes/specs with little ability to control opponents, who relied on burst or high sustained damage output for kills.

Percent modifiers R'US

 

HamSlammer

CS being at 75% Weapon damage is an overall loss to both it and RV damage. I assume Seal damage will be enough compensation for the loss, but only after the requisite 5stack is obtained.

Additionally, it being at a 4 second cooldown is... odd, seeing as it will only be used every 4.5 seconds, due to the GCD.

Lastly, there's no current notes about changing Glyph of Seal of Vengeance, meaning free 10 Expertise when your gear can't cover it, which I presume will overtake Exorcism when undergeared.

 

• Arikah

I'm utterly confused by the Hand of Reckoning change - I hope they realize that we will be spamming HoR as ret on taunt immune bosses with such a change, and it doesn't really address gap closing problems at all. It also doesn't do any damage in pvp, so it would need to again. Some more interesting tidbits from the notes:

vs

+
I am not seeing the advantage to using SoC. Mana is not our problem, and when SoV looks to deal substantially more damage in both pve and pvp (while only requiring 5 seconds to build a full stack) I'm still not sure it would even be worth speccing(let alone glyphing) for SoC.

Some other concerns/stuff in the patchnotes, which need to be tested on the PTR:

Means that with our Uld gear, we are receiving a roughly 50% nerf to JoL as ret (540 healing done with 28k hp) and roughly equalizes our JoL with prot and holy. WELL DONE QQ'RS (kidding, we saw this coming).

Does this effect stack with ShoL? As in, a crit flash from a ret will result in 130% healing?

The wording on this confuses me and is vague - we will need to do testing to see if it considers seal procs to be "melee critical hits". If it only applies to white swings I see problems with RNG in pvp (and possibly pve crit gear stacking).

Someone mind running the numbers on this? It seems about equal damage to now but it's best to have numbers for sure.

Our talent choices also vary greatly now, which I suppose is a good thing. Bread and butter build looks like http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...0&version=9947.. it's not clear what the best use for those last 5 points are yet, will need further testing (if Divinity still increases JoL healing it might be our choice).

Overall I'm going to agree with vorda; I'm not seeing these sweeping playstyle changes except for using AoW procs offensively (which can only be done every 15 seconds, unless the cooldown on exo is removed). We are still going to mash our buttons with priority on CS and gain pretty much nothing (yet) in terms of offensive utility.

 

flyingtoastr

The glyph for SoC is pretty clearly supposed to be the replacement for the SoB glyph. However, if those SoV changes go in as it looks like everyone everywhere is going to be running with that, once again relegating SoC to the dumpster (meh, good riddance).

I'm more interested with some glyph choices. If SoV stays the way it is now Expertise capping is going to be stupidly easy. Crusader Strike's notes don't mention a mana reduction anywhere, meaning we're going to be pretty handily mana-negative, making that glyph worth a bit more. Hopefully they have a bit more in store, CS and DS are still major contenders for "most uninteresting talents ever".

All in all I'm a bit disappointed. There is nothing here to really shore up any of our weaknesses and our playstyle is going to be even more of a "mash those buttons hard, bro" than it is now while making it even harder to use utility spells because we'll be very close to, if not completely, GCD locked.

 

Gormal

I'm kind of scratching my head over the announced changes still. We get to push the CS button more often, and the exorcism button less and this is supposed to make the class more skill-driven? I am curious how the 4 second CS change and the semi-random exorcism casts are going to affect clash resolution. The loss of improved JoL coupled with the loss of divine guardian in the optimal dps spec makes me hope that our personal dps is going to make up for that kind of lost raid utility.

The PvP changes to remove burst are fine, but where is the utility to compensate? We'll have to use SoC in PvP, but with the reduced burst how are we supposed to kill anyone who's getting healed or kiting us? I'm going to just stay optimistic that a lot more will be added before the patch goes live.

 

Spotnick

• Blessing of Sanctuary: This blessing now also increases stamina by 10%. This effect is not cumulative with Blessing of Kings.
• Charger: Can now be learned at level 40.
• Exorcism: Now has a 1.5 second cast time, but can once again be used on players.
• Hand of Reckoning: Redesigned. Now does damage only when target does not currently have the caster targeted, but damage done increased to 50% of attack power, occurring after the taunt effect is applied.
• Judgement of Light: Now heals for 2% of the attacker's maximum health instead of a variable amount based on the spell power and attack power of the judging paladin.
• Lay on Hands: The buff from this ability now reduces the physical damage taken by the target by 10/20% instead of increasing the target's armor.
• Righteous Fury: No longer has a duration or mana cost, remaining until cancelled or death. Also cancelled when a Paladin activates a different talent specialization.
• Sacred Shield: When a paladin casts Flash of Light on a target with this buff, they also now place a heal over time effect on the target, healing that target for 100% of the Flash of Light amount over 12 seconds.
• Seal of Blood: This ability has been removed.
• Seal of the Martyr: This ability has been removed.
• Seal of Vengeance and Seal of Corruption: These seals have been redesigned to deal substantially more damage. Now, once a paladin has 5 copies of the debuff from these seals on his or her target, on each swing the paladin will deal 33% weapon damage as Holy, with critical strikes dealing double damage.
• Shield of Righteousness: Now deals 100% of shield block value as damage instead of 130%.
• Warhorse: Can now be learned at level 20.

Talents

Holy

• Beacon of Light: The healing amount on the Beacon of Light target is now based on the total healing done (including over-healing) instead of the effective healing done. Radius increased to 60 yards. Multiple Paladins can now have this active on the same target. Buff indicating a player is within range of the Beacon target is no longer displayed.
• Divine Intellect: This talent now gives 2/4/6/8/10% increased intellect instead of 3/6/9/12/15%.
• Illumination: This talent now returns 30% of the mana cost of the spell instead of 60%.

Protection

• Ardent Defender: Redesigned. Currently, any damage taken by the paladin while at 35% health or below is reduced. Instead, any attack that would reduce the paladin to 35% health or below has its damage reduced. In addition, once every 2 minutes an attack that would have killed the paladin will fail to kill, and instead set the paladin's health to 10/20/30% of maximum.

Retribution

• Art of War: Now only applies to melee critical hits, but will make your next Flash of Light or Exorcism instant.
• Crusader Strike: Damage reduced to 75% weapon damage to match the new 4 second cooldown.
• Seal of Command: Redesigned. This seal now deals 36% weapon damage on every swing, and deals substantially less judgement damage.
• Vindication: Redesigned. Now lowers target attack power, is consistent and does not stack with Demoralizing Shout.

 

HamSlammer

Current CS:

110%*(1+.15+.1) = 137.5% WpnDmg
137.5/6 = 22.91% WpnDmg/sec

New CS:

75%*(1+.15+.1) = 93.75% WpnDmg
93.75%/4 = 23.44% WpnDmg/sec

However, in a normal PvE situation, this will only be cast every 4.5 seconds, due to the GCD, so...

93.75%/4.5 = 20.83% WpnDmg/sec

Factoring in Seal damage, the new CS will deal Seal damage at a 33%~ faster rate. Assuming the new SoVengeance deals the posted 33% WpnDmg (before any modifiers), the new CS pulls about 4% ahead.

However, prolonged "out" time or movement will be a bigger hindrance to the new CS.

I'd venture a guess at it being even a larger margin when you assume certain modifiers (SotP, CoE, etc).

 

Fisker

The damage is only applied if the taunt actually goes through, as far as i can understand.

 

flyingtoastr

Sure thing.

Right now we have CS (110% weapon damage) with Vengeance (9%), Crusade (3%), Crusade (3%), Sanctified Retribution (3%), 2 Handed Weapon Spec (6%), Sanctity of Battle (15%), Art of War (10%), Blood Frenzy (4%) = 182.71% weapon damage

3.2 CS with the same modifiers at 75% weapon damage = 124.57% weapon damage

At a 6 second cooldown it works out to 30.45% weapon damage/second. At 4 seconds it is 31.425% weapon damage per second.

So it might be a (small) buff. All depends on effective cooldowns, because we sure as hell aren't going to be getting a 4 second effective with the shitheap that is our cooldown system now.

Chances are clash resolution is going to remain exactly the same. AoW should have a near 100% uptime now (depending on what it procs off in 2.2 it could be slightly higher or lower), but Exorcism is already bottom rung for PvE resolution so it isn't a huge deal.