I have to say, I'm very disappointed that we're not getting any offensive utility, and even more so that they didn't seem to address the larger PVE issues that needed to be changed.
With CS on a 4 second cooldown, I have a feeling we will be even more starved for GCDs most of the time, severely cutting into being able to use our utility. Combined with the likely scenario of losing Divine Sacrifice & having to save our AoW procs for exo, a significant portion of our defensive utility is going to be thrown out the window. I use DSac on almost every fight in Ulduar & will be kind of bummed to have to spec out of it. My only consolation is the hope that our single target dps will go up enough to make up for my lost raid wide bubble wall.
I'm hoping that during the PTR, the issue of us brainlessly spamming whatever comes off CD will be further looked into and possibly getting the CDs of other abilities changed to facilitate a rotation of some sort, or at the very least reducing the CD clashes we deal with now.
From the sound of the post they are aimming to make our rotation more demanding. Remember this is a very early post. By the end of the PTR this could be different.
Remember last ptr? we got no news until the end and they really messed things up thus all the hotfixes and RET QQ.
Also keep in mind that WOW is not rocket science many classes do not have super complex rotations. Ret's may be one of the simpler but many other classes rotations are also pretty easy. The developers are not aimming to turning us into Feral Druids ( which they are saying they want to make easier).
Slow down on the QQ and be happy we get some attention this PTR. So far it is very positive for Ret going forward.
Not to mention that EJ even had a thread devoted to removing SOB recoil on the official wow forums which they laughed at and turned down saying it was not a problem. Now they aknowledge it is. With the new changes it is gone.
Now that Exorcise (again) has a cast time, I wonder if it, like Flash of Light, will reset the swing speed timer when cast instantly via AoW. It's something I'd suggest those of you who tinker on the Test server might look for.
Players may have only one Hand on them per Paladin at any one time.
I have tried using Libram of Discord on DS and Deadly/Furious on CS (to get the AP buff), but as frmorrison said it doesn't work. It's been a few weeks since I tried it, but nothing has changed since then. Here's what happens:
Let's say Deadly/Furious is the default.
Hit CS. Nothing happens (obviously).
Hit DS. Libram is switched, and additional damage added. Neat!
-Rest of the rotation-
Hit CS. Libram is switched, but CS is not triggered. You have to hit it twice to first switch the libram, and then trigger the CS.
Hit DS. Same as above. You now have to hit it twice: First to switch libram, then to actually trigger DS.
-Etc-
So the first switch is perfect, but then the extra GCD it takes to switch back will make it a huge DPS loss.
That's why I suggested a predictive swapping using something like S.H.I.T to pre-swap since equip swapping isn't a protected function. But as someone else has pointed out, this apparently resets your swingtimer, making the whole ordeal rather useless.
It's even less interesting in that the AoW changes mean it only procs off melee hits, not specials.
This is wrong, it says melee attacks. That means it will proc off any melee attack (CS/DS for sure, probably not judgement anymore since its a ranged attack). If you read talents that are specific to auto-attacks, they use different wording.
In addition, the wording on the new SoV says that the 33% damage is applied to an "attack" without specifically mentioning what kind. Could it be that it works off judgement/exo/HoW?
Originally Posted by sag_ich_nicht
But as someone else has pointed out, this apparently resets your swingtimer, making the whole ordeal rather useless.
I can confirm that a swap macro will reset your swing timer. They put it in for exactly this reason.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
This is wrong, it says melee attacks. That means it will proc off any melee attack (CS/DS for sure, probably not judgement anymore since its a ranged attack). If you read talents that are specific to auto-attacks, they use different wording.
In addition, the wording on the new SoV says that the 33% damage is applied to an "attack" without specifically mentioning what kind. Could it be that it works off judgement/exo/HoW?
I can confirm that a swap macro will reset your swing timer. They put it in for exactly this reason.
Heres the thing I'm wondering too - with the changes to SoV, will the value of crit inflate as well?
Seal of Vengeance and Seal of Corruption: These seals have been redesigned to deal substantially more damage. Now, once a paladin has 5 copies of the debuff from these seals on his or her target, on each swing the paladin will deal 33% weapon damage as Holy, with critical strikes dealing double damage.
Heres the thing I'm wondering too - with the changes to SoV, will the value of crit inflate as well?
Currently, the direct damage that SoV does when there's a 5stack up is considered a spell, and crits for 150%. This just brings it in line with how Command and Blood work now.
Currently, the direct damage that SoV does when there's a 5stack up is considered a spell, and crits for 150%. This just brings it in line with how Command and Blood work now.
Ah - thanks for clarification.
Edit: So with the retooling of SoV, and it now being part of our PvE DPS - we will see the dot from SoV in our dmg table as well now. More dots? I'll take them.
Chances are clash resolution is going to remain exactly the same. AoW should have a near 100% uptime now (depending on what it procs off in 2.2 it could be slightly higher or lower), but Exorcism is already bottom rung for PvE resolution so it isn't a huge deal.
If AoW procs from Judgement, CS, DS, and white swings, it only takes ~32% raid buffed crit rate for the uptime to be 99% at the end of 15 seconds. However, it would take a ~60% crit rate to maintain 99% if AoW only procs from white crits (assumed 3.2 swing speed).
Formula used is:
c = crit rate
u = uptime
h = hits during exorcism cd
u=1-(1-c)^h
Where h is calculated by multiplying the hits per second of the various abilities by the length of time the Art of War buff lasts (15 seconds).
Effective cooldowns were calculated from a hastily modified FCFS modeling script with a reduced CS cooldown and to put priority to CS -> Judge -> DS -> Exo -> Cons -> DP. Incidentally, the GCD density for this FCFS priority system is 92.5%.
EDIT:
Without judgements, the crit needed for 99% uptime is ~37%
I quickly coded the new numbers into Rawr. To give you an idea, one sample character went from 5,797 dps to 6,608 dps.
I made a few assumptions. A few because of unknown information, a few because it was a quick initial implementation.
Used Seal of Vengeance, since nerfed JoC damage is unknown and sounds like its intended to be PvP seal.
Seal of Vengeance 5 stack weapon procs act like Seal of Blood. A melee attack doing holy damage.
Ignored Exorcism change. With the character I was testing there was an 6.6% chance you would not get an AoW proc during Exorcism's cooldown. While this will make a difference and I plan to model it eventually, its not simple to do.
Kept same priority rotation.
Used same glyphs. i.e. didn't drop expertise to make use of GSoV.
Ignored ramp up time to get to 5 stacks of SoV.
I will try to refine the implementation and get an updated version out for people to try out soon. This what I coded quickly, and haven't had a lot of time to test it thoroughly. So there could be a bug in there that is producing incorrect values, but I don't think there is.
edit: Forgot to enabled Seals of the Pure on the sample character. Numbers updated.
I quickly coded the new numbers into Rawr. To give you an idea, one sample character went from 5,797 dps to 6,608 dps.
I made a few assumptions. A few because of unknown information, a few because it was a quick initial implementation.
Used Seal of Vengeance, since nerfed JoC damage is unknown and sounds like its intended to be PvP seal.
Seal of Vengeance 5 stack weapon procs act like Seal of Blood. A melee attack doing holy damage.
Ignored Exorcism change. With the character I was testing there was an 6.6% chance you would not get an AoW proc during Exorcism's cooldown. While this will make a difference and I plan to model it eventually, its not simple to do.
Kept same priority rotation.
Used same glyphs. i.e. didn't drop expertise to make use of GSoV.
Ignored ramp up time to get to 5 stacks of SoV.
I will try to refine the implementation and get an updated version out for people to try out soon.
edit: Forgot to enabled Seals of the Pure on the sample character. Numbers updated.
Since Rawr says I have an 8.9 second Judgement cooldown, I think I can take a point away from it.
Edit: Losing a point in Judgement is about 100 dps loss, so that is a bad plan to drop a point from Judgement.
I like utility, so I would like to get the new -Attack power buff and still have a raid-wide damage absorption (30% is still decent).
So I would spec 5/11/55, assuming there are no talent position changes Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft. Being able to get 10 expertise from SoV glyph is interesting regarding gearing. Since only tanks took it and most Prot attacks couldn't be dodged, they likely didn't care that is was a lot of itemization points. But now that it will affects dps, I am expecting a change to it.
Last edited by frmorrison : 06/18/09 at 8:18 PM.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
So, following an ideal rotation, we'd be close to an actual rotation: CS, DS, J, CS, Conc, Exo -> repeat over and over
Exo CD will break it. If they reduced it to 10s, we'd have a rotation. Without such a change, nothing has changed at all for us. It will still be the exact same FCFS with the same prio.
Last edited by Maylander : 06/18/09 at 7:53 PM.
"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.
If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.
If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." - Sun Tzu, Art of War
I quickly coded the new numbers into Rawr. To give you an idea, one sample character went from 5,797 dps to 6,608 dps.
I made a few assumptions. A few because of unknown information, a few because it was a quick initial implementation.
Used Seal of Vengeance, since nerfed JoC damage is unknown and sounds like its intended to be PvP seal.
Seal of Vengeance 5 stack weapon procs act like Seal of Blood. A melee attack doing holy damage.
Ignored Exorcism change. With the character I was testing there was an 6.6% chance you would not get an AoW proc during Exorcism's cooldown. While this will make a difference and I plan to model it eventually, its not simple to do.
Kept same priority rotation.
Used same glyphs. i.e. didn't drop expertise to make use of GSoV.
Ignored ramp up time to get to 5 stacks of SoV.
I will try to refine the implementation and get an updated version out for people to try out soon. This what I coded quickly, and haven't had a lot of time to test it thoroughly. So there could be a bug in there that is producing incorrect values, but I don't think there is.
edit: Forgot to enabled Seals of the Pure on the sample character. Numbers updated.
You mentioned that 5 weapon stacks act likes SoB, not exactly. According to wowhead (Seal of Blood - Spell - World of Warcraft) SoB is 48% MW damage, where as the "new" Seal of Vengeance is 33% MW damage. Did you account for this as well, as it would definately skew the numbers.
You mentioned that 5 weapon stacks act likes SoB, not exactly. According to wowhead (Seal of Blood - Spell - World of Warcraft) SoB is 48% MW damage, where as the "new" Seal of Vengeance is 33% MW damage. Did you account for this as well, as it would definately skew the numbers.
When I said acts I didn't mean how much damage it does. It meant in how it behaves regarding avoided attacks, crits, and damage modifiers.
Since Rawr says I have an 8.9 second Judgement cooldown, I think I can take a point away from it. I like utility, so I would like to get the new -Attack power buff and still have a raid-wide damage absorption (30% is still decent).
So I would spec 5/11/55, assuming there are no talent position changes Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft. Being able to get 10 expertise from SoV glyph is interesting regarding gearing, since only tanks took it and most Prot attacks couldn't be dodge they likely didn't care that is was a lot of itemization points in a glyph. But now that it will affects dps, I am expecting a change to it.
That is not really true about dropping 1 pt in Imp Judgements. If you have a 9sec Effective Cooldown, that could mean that 1/2 the time you cast it after 8 sec, and half the time after 10 sec. For instance looking at a Rawr character in 3.2 mode it has a 8.97 Judgement cooldown, but removing one point in Imp Judgements increases it to 10.13 and lowers dps by ~100.
So, following an ideal rotation, we almost have an actual rotation: CS, DS, J, CS, Conc, Exo -> repeat over and over
Did you swap DS and J on purpose? Judgement should still be better than DS.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Just counting the direct PvE-only buffs to CS there, Vengeance, Crusade et al are (so far) unchanged so will apply to both examples equally.
Also Maylander, your rotation there isn't working right: the 1.5 and 10.5 sec Divine Storm casts overlap. Some work on modelling rotations would be helpful here (didn't someone create a tool for that? Can't find it now), it'd be a change to have an actual rotation (so long as it isn't ridiculously complicated anyway).
Edit: Forgot to include RV in the CS calcs, but some rough-and-ready calcs in Bellator's spreadsheet (20th May one) says we should see a DPS increase (just plugged in shorter CD & new weapon damage coefficients).
I do kind of hate that they're making us sacrifice raid utility for DPS. I liked Divine Guardian, and I loved using AoW proc heals, especially in 10 man raids. But, I guess at this point, I'm willing to take any sacrifice if it means more DPS.
# Judgement of Light: Now heals for 2% of the attacker's maximum health instead of a variable amount based on the spell power and attack power of the judging paladin.
Means that with our Uld gear, we are receiving a roughly 50% nerf to JoL as ret (540 healing done with 28k hp) and roughly equalizes our JoL with prot and holy. WELL DONE QQ'RS (kidding, we saw this coming).
I would say I have to disagree.
What I understand from the change to JoL is this:
1. 40k raid buffed prot paladin's with 0/5 Divinity will have their JoL healing for 800 (40,000*0.02) and with 5/5 Divinity their JoL will heal for 840 (800*1.05).
2. 28k raid buffed ret paladin's with 0/5 Divinity will have their JoL healing for 560 (28,000*0.02) and with 5/5 Divinity their JoL will heal for 588 (560*1.05).
3. The set priority for JoL should now be: PROT > RET > HOLY
4. Divinity loses some appeal but still remains a good talent for the 5% increased healing received.
5. This opens up some room to spend talent pts.
a) You can spend points in the prot tree for Guardian's Favor(longer HoF) / Divine Sacrifice if you are going for utility.
b) Spend a few more points in the ret tree for Divine Purpose.
c) If mana pool size becomes an issue, spend points in holy for Divine Intellect.
# Judgement of Light: Now heals for 2% of the attacker's maximum health instead of a variable amount based on the spell power and attack power of the judging paladin.
Means that with our Uld gear, we are receiving a roughly 50% nerf to JoL as ret (540 healing done with 28k hp) and roughly equalizes our JoL with prot and holy. WELL DONE QQ'RS (kidding, we saw this coming).
it says attackers maximum health. That would imply that it doesn't matter who casts the judge light.
40k hp prot pally hits with light and gets healed for 800+.
28k hp ret pally hits the same target and takes a 500 heal based on his max life, as the attacker.
06/18/09, 4:42 PM
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