Just for clarity, will this mean hit's value rises? Will gearing for spell hit cap be important? Or am I misunderstanding your results?
From the same post, from Red...
"These all fit with the model I had been using which applies the 6% partial resist to SoV and does not apply miss, dodge or parry at all. This does mean that stacking SoV will depend on spell hit, which raises the value of hit beyond the physical cap somewhat. It is a very small amount regardless, so I will ignore it."
does this means it only procs on white or also proc on our specials??
I don't understand this part.
Has anyone a idea how this works?
It works exactly like all seals work now. Seals will proc on white and melee strikes, so for a ret paladin it will proc on white, CS, and DS. It will NOT proc on judgement, exorcism, or consecrate.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
With all the respect to Redcape and the people testing this, isn't it still too early to talk about needing or not needing spellhit for SoV? Especially since it's been said it will be doing double damage on crits, which could imply they're moving it into melee mechanic like SoB has now...
With all the respect to Redcape and the people testing this, isn't it still too early to talk about needing or not needing spellhit for SoV? Especially since it's been said it will be doing double damage on crits, which could imply they're moving it into melee mechanic like SoB has now...
You do not need to reach the spell hit cap for SoV. Spell hit only applies to the initial application of a DOT effect, which for us is a melee strike. Once you have the debuff applied, there's really nothing that can help you for holy damage. There is NO CHANGE to how it currently works, other than at a 5 stack we get extra damage in the form of a mini-sob proc.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
No one can make that call yet. Until we have numbers to put in for the two Seal's Judgements and the DoT tic for SoV it is impossible to know which is going to be better for sustained DPS.
No one can make that call yet. Until we have numbers to put in for the two Seal's Judgements and the DoT tic for SoV it is impossible to know which is going to be better for sustained DPS.
That being said, assume Vengeance.
I'd argue all we DON'T know is the penalty to SoC's judgement damage. We do know SoV's tick and judgement damage, because from everything blizzard has said so far we can pretty safely assume those remain unchanged. From my preliminary/rough math, it looks like SoV is going to tick for ~1500 in raids with high-end ulduar gear (without procs like greatness or berserking), so figure when all is said and done we're looking at a bit over 500 dps just from the DOT. Proc damage is dropping from 48 to 33% (so 68.75% of current SoB proc damage).
The main worry I have is maintaining a 5x SoV. It has a 15 second duration, but can only be triggered by white, CS, and DS. As such, it's something we're going to have to worry about on fights with heavy movement (mimiron hard mode) or lots of target switching (yogg). Currently, these kind of fights are our strongpoint, with our ability to frontload damage and then swap or GTFO. In 3.2, they will likely be a massive weakness.
Originally Posted by rbrown81
Having a DOT up on the boss full time will be nice though, and at least we dont have to rely on the target standing still as with cons.
True, but we still will be using consecration quite heavily, and now we have to worry about uptime of the DOT. If it falls off, we have to restack it (admittedly, it shouldn't take more than 4 or 5 seconds to restack, but still).
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Having a DOT up on the boss full time will be nice though, and at least we dont have to rely on the target standing still as with cons.
Not that it matters because cons still looks to be part of our rotation. Of all the changes, cons still being viable in the ret cycle is mind boggling.
Not that it matters because cons still looks to be part of our rotation. Of all the changes, cons still being viable in the ret cycle is mind boggling.
Edit: Zurm is faster.
Consecration will be in the ret rotation until we have a true no (or really low) cd/resource dump attack. They're trying to do it with crusader strike, but to really do it they'd have to remove the CD off exo and lower the damage/coefficients.
True, but we still will be using consecration quite heavily, and now we have to worry about uptime of the DOT. If it falls off, we have to restack it (admittedly, it shouldn't take more than 4 or 5 seconds to restack, but still).
Good point. That being said it could be a blessing or a curse in some of the more movement oriented fights, IE giving us a few extra secs of DPS while we move and are out of melee range.
And my consecrate is up all the time, I didnt buy that glyph for nuthin
I don't like the number of assumptions necessary at the moment, so won't be releasing a new prelim version of Bellator's spreadsheet until PTR is up and we can get coefficients, confirmation on SoV DoT application (i.e. still spellhit to apply) and so on. Based on the assumptions required and used I trust Endo and Redcape's results.
I did have some thoughts, however, that we can decide in general whether Exo is only cast if AoW is up or if we cast it regardless. The question is whether, in general, resetting a swing entirely and pushing back the next by 1.5 seconds (as your next swing will not start until Exo completes cast) is better DPS. In the example below I'm rounding regularly, so it's not precise. Haste, hit, etc should be reasonable for current levels of raid gear.
Some assumptions: Melee Weapon at 3.4 speed. Hasted it's 2.7 speed. Spellhaste your Exo is about 1.2 sec cast. Melee Hit cap (8%) which is only 10% spell (make it 13% with Misery) - thus 4% miss on Exo. SoV proc is .33AP.
Ignoring weapon damage and going just by AP coefficient, if you have at least 2850 AP you will lose damage from Exorcism usage if you perform the full cast (vs AoW instant proc which better not reset swing). A 3.6 speed weapon has an even lower AP required to be superior. Even in crafted L80 gear with raid buffs you exceed this number. Add in the damage from the weapon tooltip to the AP and it's a nobrainer - cast-time Exo is always a loss.
Even including a Totem of Wrath and Fish Feast, Exo is a loss unless it's instant. Even if instant, if Exo resets the swing timer it will never be used.
Conclusion:
If Blizzard's intention was to make Ret more interactive, the changes are rather sad. 4 second CD on Crusader Strike means fewer free GCD - less ability to use utility options like Hands or AoW heals. AoW heals also a vaguely no-go area since you need AoW for your Exo. The only "thought" that will be involved other than hitting buttons on cooldown is whether AoW has procced for Exo (as someone earlier theorycrafted - 99% chance to be up), and this is negated by something like the "Serious Help in Timing" mod, which would just have a check to see if the proc is active before it showed you Exo to use.
In short, Ret will have less utility and between two Ret with equal gear the one with lower latency will win, even if not the better player - because they can press cooldowns more effectively. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
4 second CD on Crusader Strike means fewer free GCD - less ability to use utility options like Hands or AoW heals.
I just wanted to point out that it seems, to me at least, that blizzard WANTS this. They want us to have to chose more between DPS and surviving, and they didn't seem to be too fond of 3-4 second gaps where we had no buttons to push. Allow me to quote from the "Upcoming Paladin Changes" post a few days ago:
"However, Ret still has some problems. There aren’t enough buttons to push and they are all limited by cooldowns..."
(Source)
And to be perfectly honest, I want this too. In fact, I don't think they have done nearly enough in fixing the faceroll nature of the class. It is far too easy to play, and unlike other classes, even poor play still results in similar DPS numbers. We will have MORE Art of War procs (call it an assumption if you want, there is no doubt in my mind), and fewer free GCDs to use them... THIS IS GOOD. The flood of people to these forums begging for cookie cutter gearsets and specs only confirms my worry. People don't need to understand how retribution works to do well (unlike a rogue or affliction warlock, for example), they just build their character, don their saftey helmet with the giant Barney sticker on it, and proceed to smash their face into the keyboard in a fashion that would make chickens jealous.
Last edited by Zurm : 06/22/09 at 3:24 PM.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
GC is addressing some of the issues with facerolling (planning to remove the macro functionality that will know when it is safe to cast Exo). It isn't enough, but it is some action.
Also, I have seen people say the difference between an average and great Ret is a few dps, I disagree. I have played in PuG VoAs and seen similar geared Rets do 500-1000 less dps. Maybe they didn't care about watching cooldowns (which I do) or didn't have a g15 (which is better, but I don't like the idea of using one), but the difference was there.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
"However, Ret still has some problems. There aren’t enough buttons to push and they are all limited by cooldowns..."
(Source)
And to be perfectly honest, I want this too.
I happen to 100% agree. However based on this initial post we currently have no extra buttons to push. We're simply pushing CS approx 1.5 times as often. Unless AoW resets Exo cooldown, then they're still ALL limited by cooldowns. No breaking out of the box occurring.
I like the thought behind his post and this particular quote. The seal changes are extremely nice. We're moving more into DoTs (SoV!) as this thread has recommended for quite some time. Something proc-based could be a good idea. We just haven't reached the solution, yet. With hope 6-8 weeks PTR testing (or more) can hammer out a good system that is no longer faceroll.
As for folks 500-1k lower in similar gear - it happens. I've run with a PuG hunter in a Heroic who did 500 DPS total (including pet). Yes, he was in greens and a couple blues. This doesn't change the fact it horrified all the hunters in my guild, because in similar gear (shortly after Wrath release) their pets alone could out DPS him.
Faceroll 2.0 is still faceroll. Unless my math was horribly flawed (possible), we already know that we cannot use Exo unless AoW is up. It's an attempt to add interactivity, but not enough when any of a half-dozen mods can make it a no-brainer. Knowing "always press button on cooldown" is easy. Knowing "press button on cooldown except in situation X" can be more interactive and if you make "situation X" less than cut and dried then the reflexes and gut instinct of the really good Ret can let them show their stuff.
Here's hoping they'll tweak so AoW resets CD on Exo, even if they have to tweak Exo damage downwards. It will require skill to decide "Do I hit Exo now, or do I leave it a few seconds." Spam too early - wasted DPS because you delayed better abilities. Spam too late, you missed that 2nd AoW which procced and could have given you two Exos. I'd suggest rather than AOW reset CD, have it chop 5 sec off CD. So multiple procs could be useful before using one.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
Between server lag and latency Exo is not going to be used every CD it will be delayed. In theory sure we have a 99% chance on a patchwerk type fight. Even with mods we will miss out on exos. I would model our dps per fight with 3-5 less exo's per rotation take this into account.
Between the Exo changes and the nerf to our aoe damage in SOV I would say PVE wise we are not going to come out on top of this. The SOV Dot is not going to hurt as much as SOB procs off DS. Whereas Blizzard's history with SOC it will mostly likely fail on all accounts including arena. If they make a note about our judgement's doing less damage in the tooltip itself you can count on judgement hitting for MUCH less.
What we need is the option to do Consistent DPS more often based on a short reaction time. Not burst dps based on reaction time over a long CD. I would say nerf Exo's damage by 25% but make it on a 5 second CD and usable anytime we gain AOW. If we want to come out on top with this we will need to be active on the PTR requesting a different Exo mechanic. The devs want to keep it simple as stated before so they are not going to explore reworking more than 1-2 of our mechanics and I would say they most likely wont rework anything else than exo at this point if at all.
Take into account they buffed Resil in PVP and nerfed our burst so PVP is going to be much worse as well. Whereas Priests and druids where lightly nerfed in PVP the resil working better is a buff for them alongside a nerf whereas we got a double nerf.....
You can tell a skilled player from a non skilled ret. Just look at wow forums and mmo-champ forums and all the rets who state ask tons of stupid questions. Ultimately it still comes down to the player behind the key board. I see a lot of terrible Ret paladins. Even in Ulduar where people should be more serious than VOA I have seen paladins do less than 1,000 dps than me. For example does not spec DG to keep a "PVP" with his PVE spec yet he does not even spec into Improved HOJ.
even poor play still results in similar DPS numbers.
I don't agree at all. I found that when my gear was inferior to my guildmates, I was able to post better numbers than them by utliizing my cooldowns better than they did. Now that we have more comparable gear, they've seen the difference and improved their GCD (and item) usage, and are posting similar numbers while actually still performing utilitarian functions to boot.
As long as someone uses FCFS, they'll do good damage, regardless of whether they have the right prio or not. The difference is made whether they wait for specific CDs, or just smash their buttons as soon as possible (it's a huge DPS loss to wait for CDs).
Using the right prio will give you a slight advantage, but a castrandom macro is not far behind in terms of output. Of course, you lose control of your CDs, which is a huge drawback, so it's certainly not recommended. All I'm saying is - even a faceroll castrandom macro will produce very good DPS.
In my opinion, that is still a massive flaw in our design, and I've seen nothing that will fix that. Looking for AoW procs for Exo is a nice addition I suppose (as it's a DPS loss to cast it without the proc, as proven above by Exemplar), but since we'll have AoW procs more often than 15 seconds, it probably won't be an issue.
"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.
If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.
If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." - Sun Tzu, Art of War
I don't agree at all. I found that when my gear was inferior to my guildmates, I was able to post better numbers than them by utliizing my cooldowns better than they did. Now that we have more comparable gear, they've seen the difference and improved their GCD (and item) usage, and are posting similar numbers while actually still performing utilitarian functions to boot.
Of course, anecdotes aren't evidence, and ymmv.
Granted, but I said similar not the same. And honestly, how hard is it really to hit AoW during Heroism? As long as you are making sure you fit in the maximum # of AoW's each boss kill, does it really matter when you use it besides heroism? Sure there are MORE ideal times (for example, I use a mod that tracks my trinket ICDs, so I often delay AW to line up with a greatness proc), but the end result isn't much different. I played around in the Rawr code one day just to see for myself, even pushed the effect GCD to 2 seconds (from the 1.6 that was used at the time) and the change was about 5.5k --> 5k dps (this back in late naxx/early ulduar). Sure it's different, but ultimately sad. The difference between a good and a bad rogue, for example, is on the order of 2000 dps, not 500.
Originally Posted by trv186
Between the Exo changes and the nerf to our aoe damage in SOV I would say PVE wise we are not going to come out on top of this. The SOV Dot is not going to hurt as much as SOB procs off DS. Whereas Blizzard's history with SOC it will mostly likely fail on all accounts including arena. If they make a note about our judgement's doing less damage in the tooltip itself you can count on judgement hitting for MUCH less.
While I love a doomsday hypothesis as much as the next emodin, keep in mind blizzard has acknowledged ret is lower than than they would like in PVE, and plans to address this with 3.2. Look at PTR patch 3.1. We were grossly underpowered for all but the last two weeks (the week before that, alliance retadins had broken seals and did like 3k dps). The PTR is a TEST REALM, and I have full faith that blizzard will pull through for us. Already we are seeing a single-target boost of ~400 dps from early Rawr models (for those in higher-end ulduar gear), and while our AOE damage is getting nerfed, I have faith that we will see compensation elsewhere.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
People don't need to understand how retribution works to do well (unlike a rogue or affliction warlock, for example), they just build their character, don their saftey helmet with the giant Barney sticker on it, and proceed to smash their face into the keyboard in a fashion that would make chickens jealous.
I don't really agree with this. The best dps rotation for FFB or FB spec'd mages is: Keep Living bomb on target, FB(FFB) til Hot Streak procs, then cast Pyro. Macro all your other crap (i.e. combustion/trinks). Make a lock do ISB. That's not really all that hard. The difficulty is in gearing appropriately (hit/gear needs are mapped out on various forums) and picking the cookie-cutter talent spec.
I think the biggest difference between us and other classes is that a typical dps class has 3 specs, each playing out slightly differently and needing different gear/hit/etc to support. Maybe this creates a perception of complexity because they have 3 meta choices to pick from and min/max when it comes to dps. When you look at paladins, there is just one dps spec. So we only have one build to run numbers around. Maybe there's an appearance of simplicity because of that.
All that said, I'm looking forward to the changes. I think some of our mechanics needed updating (martyr self-damage), and it'll be interesting to see if the final numbers keep us about where we're at now or what. Plus I like things getting a little mixed up now and again. I hope they fix our blessing system along the way...
As far as skilled/non-skilled players go... I don't think changes will widen the gap but in a temporary fashion until people catch up knowledgewise.
I don't really agree with this. The best dps rotation for FFB or FB spec'd mages is: Keep Living bomb on target, FB(FFB) til Hot Streak procs, then cast Pyro. Macro all your other crap (i.e. combustion/trinks). Make a lock do ISB. That's not really all that hard.
Play an Affliction Warlock sometime (I have one as an alt) - it's an extreme example, but keeping 100% uptime on DoTs can be quite tricky. Yes, your Fire Mage only has Living Bomb, but has to try to keep that up without clipping ticks and is monitoring Hot Streak.
Paladins are pressing buttons that are no longer on cooldown. It doesn't even matter WHICH button - taking even 1/10th of a second to look at your buttons and pick which is worse than pressing the "wrong" one immediately.
How is thought involved? A bad Ret is a slow, distracted, or confused Ret. A good Ret is one with low latency who presses buttons - any button - ASAP. Is it a crime to ask for some thought? To require a decision making process. Even your Fire Mage has it: do I recast Living Bomb now and eat a tick, or wait for another FB/FFB cast and risk having to NotStandInAFire and lose 10 seconds on Living Bomb uptime?
It appears that Blizzard intends to try to inject this thought into things in 3.2. I have faith they can do so. The way the Exo/AoW proc is currently listed in patch notes (which could not fully explain the mechanic!) is not yet it. Yet. Let's provide reasoned feedback from PTR testing and help Blizzard remove the need to put a cork on Ruprecht's fork.
Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."
What Examplar said. Those of you claiming there is a big difference between 'average' and 'good' are giving far too much credit to those other players: They are bad, pure and simple. And, since the theoretical floor on bad play is far lower than the ceiling on good, bad players can really build an impressive gap between themselves and good players. (I literally saw an 80 ret using SoR in nax25 because he 'didn't like to hurt himself') The important gap, which is fairly minuscule, is between average and great players. Average meaning one with a basic understanding of class mechanics, priorities, etc. Just perhaps not 100% focus or flawless decision-making abilities or lightning fast reaction times.
Anyone remember the throwaway options GC mentioned a few weeks ago as the type of stuff they may do? I didnt like all of them, but they were all more interesting than the garbage they came up with. I truly believe these changes really didn't even have pve gameplay in mind. They were simply trying to nerf our pvp burst and this is what they came up with.
Hopefully, as 3.2 evolves some more interesting mechanics are brought into the equation, but it seems like the change to exorcism kind of locks them out of certain options. Hopefully they aren't married to that idea just yet, and can just let it go with sufficient feedback...
06/21/09, 8:51 PM
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