Heck

Replenishment will definitely add to your aggro. Most of the situational awareness you need to execute was already commented on by Zurm. I'm HIGHLY aware of where new adds are spawning. Most of the time they spawn somewhere away from where the melee/tanks are standing (our guild uses melee/portal dps on adds, ranged/outside dps on Yogg). If one spawns really close to where adds are being tanked, I always run away for a second to make sure I'm out of melee range and don't get insta-one shot.

Normal dps on adds needs to be done with the utmost care. Never divine storm on a freshly picked up add (I usually drop consecration at this point). Make sure you're dropping HoW on low/no health targets (gives tanks time to build up aggro on new spawns). I'll only DS when there's no chance I'll hit an add that hasn't been tanked for a few seconds. If I drop a consecration and and add spawns relatively close to melee position I'll run away to let tanks swipe/shield of rightousness/thunderclap to get their attention off me.

P3 requires a lot of attention, which I find enjoyable. P1 requires quite a bit of attention as well, (if your melee are in the center with the tank dodging clouds) but it's more predictable (clouds never change direction).

Of course, that's just me... I could be wrong.
-Dennis Miller

 

greatrichie

I've always been under the assumption that resource regen (BoW, Replenishment ticks, DP, as well as other classes resource regen tricks) didn't produce any threat. Has that changed?

 

• frmorrison

In BWL, Paladins used BoW to help tank the Nef adds. It was changed something around that time to resource regen make no aggro.

If this has changed, then Omen doesn't know about it.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

trv186

In regards to Yogg threat.

I have noticed this too but it is not me only it seems to be all melee. As to dropping DPS like Zurm said to stay alive I agree but I would not be as harsh. Pushing your dps to the limit is what you need for hard modes and on our 1 keeper attempts I am usually first or second dps.

With mods you can tell when you have threat on something so watch that and check around you I am able to keep dpsing full time while searching for new spawns especially if I gain threat and the new mob is going to be intercepted by a tank I relax a little but still watch for him, however if he gets within about 15 yards I bubble/bop myself wait til the tank grabs him then click it off. I try and bop other melee I notice in similar danger as well. Just my alternative to slowing down your DPS try and mix it with keeping your camera at full zoom and watching the mobs.

Now as far as where the treat goes I am not convinced it is JOL or replenishment because raid healers should be getting that threat before us and like I said above the mobs literally spawn across the room and are gunning it for melee long out of our range.

My thoughts are perhaps Yogg shares a special aggro table between him and his mobs but only as they spawn. So an add spawns with what yogg's aggro would be if he could attack a target directly. I spend a lot of time dpsing Yogg (esp judging him since you can do it while backwards) About the only attack he does not get hit by on a regular basis is my CS and exo. I save my HOW cool downs for him as well. We also have a lot of downtime between adds and I full on DPS him for 5-10 seconds.

If Yogg shares an aggro table with his mobs then it would make sense that the mobs gun it for dps. Both ranged and melee and not tanks or healers when they first spawn. The tanks are not focused on yogg much at all and I rarely see the adds chase down a healer as their initial target it is almost always a DPS.

The healers I see them switch aggro to are never holy paladins as well...so basically attacking raid healers which would make even more sense if a mob spawns pissed at you as a ret pally and then a resto shammys nails you with a chain heal the mob could easily pull off you towards a raid healer. You could compound that problem because the top people on Yogg's aggro table would be dps so essentially a raid healer healing multiple dps at one point would take that aggro pretty quick (esp melee when you factor in melee get extra threat on him due to proximity)

To sum up I think the adds spawn with Yogg's Aggro table. Yogg does not directly attack anyone so this is looked over (explains why he spawns across the room pissed at you). Once spawned the add has it's own threat table going forward from the situation he was spawned at. Which would explain why as he runs across the room a priest heals a bunch of melee and the mob sometimes switches targets to him

I hope that is helpful. I pay a lot of attention to the adds in P3 and notice a lot of strange behavior.

 

Heck

Taken from Threat - WoWWiki:

So power gains produce the same relative threat as healing (.5 threat per 1 point gained). This threat was specifically removed from Judgement of Light (assuming BoW falls under this category as well). Looking on the web to see if Replenishment has had similar changes done to it to romove threat, but not finding anything yet. Or maybe it falls under the second part of that statement where "no Energy-increasing effects appear to cause bonus threat."

Of course, that's just me... I could be wrong.
-Dennis Miller

 

Valerys

So if BoW/replenishment generate threat, would it be applied to the person who gets the effect, or the person who originally applied the buff? I would hope the former.

 

trv186

If these were generating the kind of crazy threat we are capable of getting on Yogg then we would have much bigger problems on other fights as well. However, this complaint is only really brought up on Yogg. That is why I think it is a unique mechanic for Yogg P3 which is causing problems.

 

Exemplar

I believe I can firmly state that the Guardians do not "inherit" threat from Yogg.

I run with a DK using a no Subversion build. His threat blows me out of the water, yet I sometimes get instagibbed* and he very rarely does. However I can attribute mine to Consecration - we're not running fewer than 4 watchers on 25man and thus don't fine tune every bit of DPS, tanks can turn and face Yogg, etc.

Further proof is the examples above where the paladin is DPSing Guardians and not Yogg. Were Yogg to pass threat it would be on the casters DPSing him, not the paladin DPSing tanked Guardians.

* Instagib on 4watchers is a misnomer. I typically take a blow before a taunt. Maybe every few weeks take a Hodir Flash Freeze.


TLDR - something is pulling threat on you if a Guardian attacks you. Your DPS, your incidental healing, your buffs (BoP generates threat) - I suppose Replenish is also possible.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

Hulabaloon

Does Omen calculate it's own threat numbers anymore? I thought that since 3.0 it just hooks into WoW's standard threat info and displays it in bar form. Hence why you can no longer see the raid's threat on a mob unless you are on it's threat table.

 

Charmin

Either way a Holy Paladin RF Healing should being doing more than any incidental healing or buffs you may be providing. I think most of this comes down to people being careless with their dps.

Our Yogg strat has us at Yoggs back so YS - Melee - Ranged DPSing Guardians - Tanks & Guardians - Healers. We have a Paladin RF heal (which helps a lot) to drag the Guardians across our tanks, however this "I" formation that we use often drags Guardians through Yogg and directly across the melee and when a melee dies it is usually due to a combination of carelessness on the DPS's part and poor reaction time on the part of the tanks. Often if one person pulls threat and a Guardian gibs that person he will be saved by the Hodir buff, but the Guardian will then turn and start whacking other melee who picked up threat through their incidental AOE.

Such is the life of melee.

In combination with a RF healing Pally we also have one tank as a go to tank for picking up the adds and bringing them back to the other tank. This has also helped immensely. Oh and if you are doing ten man hard mode YS then just drop Cons altogether. The phase goes by so fast that having Cons down with only one tank to watch your back is just a liability.

 

• Zurm

You're all looking at this wrong.

The BoW/replenishment arguement makes NO sense at all. Healers have hots rolling on tanks who are always taking damage (or should be), they would MUCH sooner pull aggro than you from 1 point of threat ticks. Even an awry DS heal tick likely won't get you aggro. I bet you if you posted logs where you died by pulling aggro for "no reason" I could point out where you accidently ATTACKED the mob first. The key to Yogg p3 is situational awareness, something you don't need as much of in other ulduar fights.

And to TRV, if your warlocks, rogues, and DKs aren't beating you (ESPECIALLY on 1K), then they are doing something wrong, you vastly outgear them, OR your guild typically has more than 1-2 guardians up at a time, in which case that's a general add dps fail. Also, how early I attack greatly depends on the number of rogues we bring. My guild has a fantastic group of rogues, so when 3 or more are in the raid, I never have to worry about pulling thanks to tricks and their super high damage output. The second we hit two or fewer rogues, however, I ease off. Keep in mind I'm never waiting, it's usually my job to finish off the previous mob so I'm always attacking, just switching later than others. In all honesty, there is only one fight in ulduar where its ever ok for you to consistantly beat rogues, and that's Kologarn. If they have similar gear and know how to play right, they should be wiping the floor with pretty much everyone in your raid unless it's a caster-favored fight.

 

Valerys

And again Zurm, I have experienced situations where I am standing absolutely still in the ranged group, doing nothing, having no Consecration running, nada. And multiple spawning guardians in a row target me immediately after spawning and run for me until tanks taunt them.
I've died to accidental overaggro, yes. But these situations are not it.

 

• Zurm

If you could post a WMO/WOL parse, I'm 90% certain I could find where the mistake was. Keep in mind I'm not necessarily saying it's YOUR fault. I'm saying its either your fault OR the tanks'... but the fact that it targets you first means, more than likely, that there's not enough damage going out because of the difficulty, and your healers/spriests have nothing to heal. Ret has no magic super aggro... the worst threat class for multiple target fights is almost always shadow priests.

 

Pruf

I'm sorry if i missed this somewhere else, but Xyrm what UI addons do you use? Watching your Algalon vid i noticed how clean and efficient it was and would like to emulate it with some tweaks.

 

Korbah

I've noticed that adds(in general, not just yogg) like to go for me when I dps as well. If I recall correctly though, replenishment doesn't add threat to anyone, at least not the person that buffed everyone with it. If power gains still caused threat, then judging anything should cause threat due to the mana gain from judgements of the wise. I think I remember something about power gains not causing threat any more, though..

 

Flaccus

I have a question about Exorcism vs Undead Mobs and it's priority in the FCFS attack cycle.

Since it's guaranteed to crit versus Undead Mobs, where does it stand in the current FCFS cycle. I notice that it's pretty much always higher damage than a CS for my gear

(armory Tayto on Stormreaver)

Thanks!

 

Exemplar

Short form: No change. Exorcism remains (2nd*) lowest priority.

* - Holy Wrath is the only lower priority if you are using it.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

Jackinthegreen

On single target Holy Wrath is our lowest DPS attack. However, the more undead/demon targets in range the higher priority it gets. Damage-wise, it's at about the third or fourth target Holy Wrath will do more than Exo and thus should be higher priority. Not useful in Ulduar since it has no undead, but on Noth or Gluth, Holy Wrath is absolutely awesome. I was highly amused during Noth when I did 1500 DPS in my healing spec.

 

Exemplar

I would strongly dispute increasing the priority of Holy Wrath in 99% of situations.

Unless the adds share HP with the boss (even via a Kologarn's arms style mechanic) or there is actual danger of adds eating a raid member, then Holy Wrath should not gain priority. Doing extra DPS to adds does not kill the boss more rapidly, it just inflates your numbers. Our job is to kill the boss.

In fact, the best use of Holy Wrath is an argument against prioritizing it - Gluth. On Gluth you should make sure Holy Wrath is off cooldown during Decimate (you can normally hit it once free and clear, but the second could go right before Decimate, which would place it on cooldown). By NOT using it when it drops in a free GCD of FCFS you are then able to apply it to the adds - not for its DPS but for its extremely useful stun. This is that 1% where killing the adds effectively reduces the HP of the boss (through prevented healing), and even here we're dropping Holy Wrath priority except once on the adds. So you've left Holy Wrath on cooldown longer than necessary, just to finally make it first priority on the adds. Once, on a single fight, in a single instance in the game.

The goal is to kill things effectively and maximize our DPS. Not to look good on a meter, that's hopefully incidental on many bosses because you maximized DPS.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

Ashbringer

On Yogg-Saron with 1 keeper, let alone 0 keepers, retribution paladins do have a problem with threat on Immortal's and dying in phase 3. The biggest thing to remember when in the final phase of the fight is to be very careful when you're casting Consecration and Divine Storm. If your tanks are picking up the Immortal Guardian's as they run past melee in the green gunk around Yogg, chances are you will already be producing more threat then your tank has. Generally speaking, it's safe to assume that as the Immortal's are coming in, your tanks are taunting the new ones to get their attention, but finishing off their old adds before they begin on the new ones. Since you, the lovely paladin, is using Consecration and Divine Storm on cooldown, you will be pulling the fresh adds off of the tanks unless they're completely on top of their game.

Long story short, be aware of what's going on and especially of the spawn locations of the Immortal Guardians. Threat in this encounter really isn't an issue for us but if you get a lucky crit. string on a new guardian, the chances of immediate death are very high. Yogg0 especially, but there's also more going on there that you need to be aware of and acting on.

 

Glutton

I have experience on Yogg 1 as Protection and Retribution. I don't believe losing or pulling threat is a serious concern in P3. With a max zoom macro you can have the freshly spawned Immortal Guardian targeted before it's even in range of taunt. Once they come within 30 yrds, as a Paladin I'll use Avenger's Shield or Exorcism >> Judgment when they come into range. If the tank is about to lose aggro on the previous Immortal because of pre-targeting the next Immortal, then the tank is doing something wrong in their threat rotation. Newly taunted mobs generally take priority in threat building because incidental AOE / healing bombs have a decent chance of pulling threat unless you quickly toss a shield slam or a hammer on them.

I'll defer to your knowledge of Yogg 0. I can understand that the situation may be significantly different in terms of threat since the two tanks have so much more to focus on.

 

• Zurm

My guild runs with a Prot Warrior and DK, in main raids, and a prot paladin/DK in alt raids. I can guarantee you that prot paladins have a unique advantage with their overall insane threat, especially when ti comes to aoe or quick swap fights (two 8 second taunts = LOL). Honestly having a prot paladin and not having for Yogg 1k is like night and day.

As for attempts on 0k, retribution paladins should in no way be on the adds. At all. You must be on the boss. The only people who should be on adds are people with PURE aoe abilities that have an uncapped number of targets (such as rogues, mages). Especially considering how much more damage we do below 20%, there is no reason for you to ever be on adds, and therefore a moot point. And even if you were, if you were trying it with at least 3 rogues (like you should be) and with those rogues tricksing tanks on CD (like they should) threat would be a non-issue.

 

Exemplar

New 3.2 version of Bellator's spreadsheet posted. Links are in first post of this thread.

Rock: "We're sub-standard DPS. Nerf Paper, Scissors are fine."
Paper: "OMG, WTF, Scissors!"
Scissors: "Rock is OP and Paper are QQers. We need PvP buffs."

 

Wrathblood

Shouldn't that get moved to the 3.2 thread? I mean, this is the 3.1 thread after all.

 

aylen86

Opening your latest file, I'm constantly getting an error popup message provided by MS Office Excel 2007:

Excel found unreadable content in 'Ret Paladin 3.2 8-4-09.xls'. Do you
want to recover the contents of the workbook? If you trust the source of
this workbook, click yes."

Confirming with 'Yes' opens the file, but it still seems corrupted (the file mainly consists of unsorted numbers). Pressing 'No' refuses any action to open the file.