3.1 Retribution Paladin Thread - Page 60

• Zurm · 05/13/09, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by rldolph79

I just went and check my WMO logs and I stand corrected. I recieved over twice as much JoL healing as holy damage taken. I couldn't, however, find where to look to see how much damage SS absorbed (if that's even possible), so those numbers may be skewed. On Mimiron, for example, I recieved 240k healing from JoL and dealt 97k holy damage to myself, but SS proced 21 times. I don't have the time right now to work out how much my SS should absorb though.

I've seen mine absorb for up to 2.2k through MSBT. It's nearly impossible to get a hard number on SS absorbs because its based directly off our spellpower, which is indirectly impacted by AP. And given how variable our AP is during a boss fight at any given time, it can vary wildly. Plus, it could have been higher given that SoB/JoB recoils could have lowered it slightly.

Blackwater · 05/13/09, 11:26 PM

Ok I am about to tear out my hair.

We have 3 paladins in our raid. Ret, Prot, Holy.

Who should be judging what and why? Now since the beginning of time I have been judging Wisdom, and the Prot has been judging light.

Now all of a sudden the prot says "No no, me judging wis gives me more aggro, ret boy, you go judge light"

All I want to know who should be judging what to be the most effective. Ret = wis, and have Prot/holy do light ? Or have Prot do wis, and me and holy go light.

And don't the 2 lights or 2 wisdoms overwrite each other ? Grrrr

Ranjurm · 05/13/09, 11:46 PM

Prot guy doesn't know what he's talking about with JoW. Due to the somewhat unknown properties of JotJ and whether or not it stays on when the same judgement is applied from another paladin, your two options for judgement assignments are the following:

Ret: JoL
Prot: JoW
Holy: JoL

Here you occasionally get holy's weaker JoL but not for longer than 9 seconds (ret judges a lot more often)

Your second option is:

Ret: JoL
Prot: JoJ
Holy: JoW

Here Prot gets to keep his slow debuff up 100% of the time but the raid only has partial JoW uptime.

Personally I prefer the first option. When blizzard changed JoJ range for holy for the sake of pvp it made assignments for PvE messy since holy could no longer judge JoJ from a distance.

• frmorrison · 05/14/09, 12:42 AM

I just did most of the Ulduar (sans last two bosses) with SS on the MT or OT, except for P2/P4 Mimiron and the Arena Boss. I think it made a difference.

My only boss death would not have been stopped by a 2k SS shield, so I will cast SS on the tanks next time as well.

Palette · 05/14/09, 2:01 AM

Prot guy doesn't know what he's talking about with JoW. Due to the somewhat unknown properties of JotJ and whether or not it stays on when the same judgement is applied from another paladin, your two options for judgement assignments are the following:

Ret: JoL
Prot: JoW
Holy: JoL

Here you occasionally get holy's weaker JoL but not for longer than 9 seconds (ret judges a lot more often)

Your second option is:

Ret: JoL
Prot: JoJ
Holy: JoW

Here Prot gets to keep his slow debuff up 100% of the time but the raid only has partial JoW uptime.

Personally I prefer the first option. When blizzard changed JoJ range for holy for the sake of pvp it made assignments for PvE messy since holy could no longer judge JoJ from a distance.

I would prefer to let the Ret do the JoL and the Holy and the Prot do the JoW
Isn't it that there can be 2 JoW on the mob?
so you can get 2 Procs of Wisdom

Junlex · 05/14/09, 2:26 AM

Originally Posted by Palette

I would prefer to let the Ret do the JoL and the Holy and the Prot do the JoW
Isn't it that there can be 2 JoW on the mob?
so you can get 2 Procs of Wisdom

The problem with this is if the Prot is the only tank keeping an attack speed slow up on the mob in question, which depends on your raid composition. If the only attack speed reduction is from the prot's judgements of the just, occasionally when the holy judges wisdom, it has been demonstrated to knock JotJ off until the prot judges again. This affects both the damage intake on the tank and the damage output of any mages with torment the weak in their spec (so anything other than FFB mages).

Glycell · 05/14/09, 7:46 AM

Originally Posted by Palette

I would prefer to let the Ret do the JoL and the Holy and the Prot do the JoW
Isn't it that there can be 2 JoW on the mob?
so you can get 2 Procs of Wisdom

What the Guy above me said, as well ass Judges do not Stack, when a Holy Pally Judges Wisdom it will just overwrite the Prot Pally's Judgment.

gmedina · 05/14/09, 8:29 AM

with all the SS comments flying about i think i may have missed something. How is it we can have holy paladins casting it on the entire raid, or even the ret pally casting it on himself and the MT??? The reason i ask is that the spell saying it can only be applied to one target at a time? Does this not apply?

Each time the target takes damage they gain a Sacred Shield, absorbing 500 damage and increasing the paladin's chance to critically hit with Flash of Light by 50% for up to 6 sec. They cannot gain this effect more than once every 6 sec. Lasts 30 sec. This spell cannot be on more than one target at any one time.

Markara · 05/14/09, 8:54 AM

You can just cast it on one target, but there can be more than one SS on the same target.

• Zurm · 05/14/09, 8:54 AM

gmedina, I think you are misunderstanding what people are saying. For each paladin, there can only be ONE sacred shield buff at a given time. However, a single target can have more than one sacred shield buff.

Edit: Beaten again, by markara.

Also, I know the question was brought up earlier as to which boss fights you might stop putting SS on yourself and start putting it on the MT. There aren't many fights I would do this for, but if I had to pick a few it would be Ignis, IC-Hard phase 3, Auriya for add tank (then yourself), Vezax, and Thorim phase 1/2.

Exemplar · 05/14/09, 9:15 AM

Originally Posted by Glycell

What the Guy above me said, as well ass Judges do not Stack, when a Holy Pally Judges Wisdom it will just overwrite the Prot Pally's Judgment.

Wrong. Wisdom does stack - if there is no JotJ (and possibly HotC) on the part of those who judge Wis. According to maintankadin (who offer anecdotes and no WWS links) JoW linked with JotJ seem to drop on new JoW from other paladins sometimes... sometimes they stay. I believe this is correct (see WWS proof below).

I have multiple occurrence in our guild WWS where our Prot, 2 Holy, and 2nd Ret all Judge Wis and I receive a triple proc (same exact timestamp to the millisecond) on a single attack (white or otherwise).

Just last night:
0:04'19.549 Exemplar melee swing hits Auriaya for 1997 Physical. #508220
Next page:
0:04'20.472 Exemplar gains 88 Mana from Vonhagen Judgement of Wisdom. #508361
0:04'20.472 Exemplar gains 88 Mana from Arachas Judgement of Wisdom. #508362
0:04'20.472 Exemplar gains 87 Mana from Dazre Judgement of Wisdom. #508363

From this filter on that fight you can see procs from both Holy, Arachas (judges at 4:10 - falls off at 4:30) and Dazre (judges at 4:16 - falls off at 4:31), in and around Vonhagen's (Ret - 4:10, 4:19, 4:31). Neither Holy re-judged within the 20 second debuff, yet all 3 debuffs were present on the boss. Andice (prot) was off tanking Feral defender so cannot comment how his JotJ would have impacted this situation.

If JotJ is involved apparently sometimes JoW stacks and other times the newest judge pushes off the oldes (along with JotJ). I believe this fight could show JotJ flakiness. Sometimes Arachas and Andice proc within same time window, sometimes one or the other is present. 0:00'37.718 Andice's JoW is refreshed, but 0:00'38.805 it was removed (Arachas judged JoW).

JoL definitely doesn't stack - freshest knocks off previous versions, even if the new version will heal for less. One paladin cannot multijudge - the last judgement removes the previous, so one paladin cannot keep both Wis and Light active.

Until I see proof otherwise, I'd say my WWS show that JoW definitively can and will stack in most circumstances - only when JotJ is involved does it not always stack (even then it sometimes stacks).

TLDR: JoW stacks every time there is no JotJ. JoW sometimes stacks if JotJ involved, sometimes does not. If JotJ is not necessary (Thunderclap, Infected Wounds, or Imp Icy Touch), then it's safe to multi-judge Wisdom from anyone not assigned as the sole JoL applicator. Each Wis will proc individually and therefore multi-JoW greatly increases raid mana regen.

christiphorb · 05/14/09, 9:29 AM

Originally Posted by Selenia

You're telling me absolutely nothing I don't already know. I -know- the theory behind it, and I follow it in-game.
I am not using excessive non-DPS abilities. I am not throwing holy lights/AoW left, right and center. I don't refresh Sacred Shield unless I have to and when doing so I always use an open global. I follow the proper priority listing. Despite all this, I find myself going OOM using Consecrate and have actually seen a DPS -increase- since switching to Blood due to more mana and not having to drop cons/prio judgement in order to avoid running on fumes.

Now, this obviously does not match the experiences of several people in this thread and my question is thus.. what could be the explanation for that?

Does Divine Plea proc a GCD? If so then perhaps the returning mana from [Glyph of Seal of Blood] is actually returning more mana with less GCD's from Divine plea.

If Divine Plea does not proc a GCD then I can't really see how Blood>Consecrate.

Earl_Grey · 05/14/09, 9:45 AM

Originally Posted by christiphorb

Does Divine Plea proc a GCD? If so then perhaps the returning mana from [Glyph of Seal of Blood] is actually returning more mana with less GCD's from Divine plea.

If Divine Plea does not proc a GCD then I can't really see how Blood>Consecrate.

DP is triggering a GCD of course, but our rotation will allow it's use on cooldown nevertheless without delaying anything. The math on glyph of SoB has been done a thousand times, and besides glyph of consecration not only saving nearly as much mana it also nets you a gain of about 90 dps (if i remember correctly - making it dps-wise even better than glyph of judgement and exorcism). There is really no point in choosing SoB over consecration.

• frmorrison · 05/14/09, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Earl_Grey

There is really no point in choosing SoB over consecration.

Well, there are people posting saying they have mana issues. That stems from doing something wrong, but if they have to drop 90 dps to maintain the dps rotation, then it is a good sacrifice to drop Cons. Since Ulduar has a lot of movement based encounters, I think dropping Cons may still be the best idea (assuming you needed mana from Blood).

Originally Posted by Zurm

Also, I know the question was brought up earlier as to which boss fights you might stop putting SS on yourself and start putting it on the MT. There aren't many fights I would do this for, but if I had to pick a few it would be Ignis, IC-Hard phase 3, Auriya for add tank (then yourself), Vezax, and Thorim phase 1/2.

Your healers are very skilled, so maybe don't need your help with shielding tanks. I did all normal mode sans last two, and only had SS on myself for Mimiron P2/P4, Freya, and Thorim P2 (so low tank damage, high melee AoE damage).

christiphorb · 05/14/09, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by Blackwater

Ok I am about to tear out my hair.

We have 3 paladins in our raid. Ret, Prot, Holy.

Who should be judging what and why? Now since the beginning of time I have been judging Wisdom, and the Prot has been judging light.

Now all of a sudden the prot says "No no, me judging wis gives me more aggro, ret boy, you go judge light"

All I want to know who should be judging what to be the most effective. Ret = wis, and have Prot/holy do light ? Or have Prot do wis, and me and holy go light.

And don't the 2 lights or 2 wisdoms overwrite each other ? Grrrr

The way we have it figured in our guild is that JoL gains more (thus giving more) from a Retadins AP. JoW gains (and gives) more from a Healadin. This gives the Tankadin the opportunity to either throw JoW or JoJ, depending on if that particular mob is not immune to its effects (as some bosses are).