3.1 Retribution Paladin Thread - Page 73

T.K. · 05/30/09, 5:47 AM

So, considering the community here is focused on the highest potential of the ret paladin and paladin class as a whole, I'd like to call you all to spare a bit portion of your times to check my post at Blizz foruns.

I know those foruns are normally full of trolls and non-sense but I'd like at least to make an effort to get a discussion going for the future ret rotation change.

If you guys could check it and at least read it i would already be pleased.

Here's the post:

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> This took a while, so...

Thanks in advance

J1M · 05/30/09, 12:47 PM

Most of your arguments in that post are based on two flawed premises:
1) If we use some of our hybrid utility we should have to sacrifice dps to do it.
2) That if we ignore what makes us paladins and pretend we are rogues we should be able to do the dps of rogues.

Any more complicated rotation will have its absolute max set around 5% less than a rogues top damage. Doing it perfectly will not put you above pure DPS classes. Doing it subpar will push you below them even more. Not exactly a good idea when you should be situationally aware and using your utility as needed. Right now its not a huge dps loss, but in a rotation like what feral druids have it will be. There's no way for the game to distinguish between "shitty dps rotation" and "saved the mage with AoW FoL".

T.K. · 05/30/09, 3:03 PM

I agree with your points at some degree.

What I find, though, is that some fights I don't need to FoL/SS/Hand/Bubble/DivSac or use any other "utility" ability. In that same fights I maintain a very good uptime on the boss 99-100%, tacking asap the fight starts and sticking to the boss. I do too keep my FCFS priority rotation as tight as possible, spamming buttons to not waste time between skills and whatever.

In that same fight, I'm behind many classes, even doing that. Clearly some fights favor other classes and some specs are favored by the moment currently in gear, like feral druids, but what I think we should have is a rotation capable, is solely doing it, to achieve higher levels of dps.

I agree that we have the OPTION of using utility, wich a rogue does not have, but if we forsake that utility, why do we have to be penalized ahead of time and not be able to push more dps?

Buffie · 05/30/09, 5:53 PM

Originally Posted by T.K.

I agree that we have the OPTION of using utility, wich a rogue does not have, but if we forsake that utility, why do we have to be penalized ahead of time and not be able to push more dps?

The general consensus for this is that if we weren't penalized, why bring the rogue? Classes without a utility option should be able to bring something to the raid & the easy answer is to have them bring more damage.

Put it this way: if a paladin & rogue both bring 6k dps to a single target & your last dps spot is a choice between the two, which will you bring? Having the potential to bring raid saving utility is worth (to me at least) the ~5% dps penalty we take. I may not use it on every fight, but it's sure nice to have in the raid.

Lesrek · 05/30/09, 6:39 PM

Originally Posted by Buffie

The general consensus for this is that if we weren't penalized, why bring the rogue? Classes without a utility option should be able to bring something to the raid & the easy answer is to have them bring more damage.

Put it this way: if a paladin & rogue both bring 6k dps to a single target & your last dps spot is a choice between the two, which will you bring? Having the potential to bring raid saving utility is worth (to me at least) the ~5% dps penalty we take. I may not use it on every fight, but it's sure nice to have in the raid.

Which is why I would like to see blizz give more utility to the pure classes. Give rogues an "Oh Shit" ability that can save the mage. Although having the 5% penalty now is needed, I hope in the future that dps is dps, and you can truly bring whoever you want.

I also forsee them making some of our utility part of our rotation. Casting AoW give you a bonus to your next attack or something along those lines can complicate our rotation and still allow us the freedom to save the sucker who ate the fire.

T.K. · 05/30/09, 6:57 PM

Point granted about pure classes, but...

When a mage brings Replenishment, a mandatory buff in raids by Blizz pov...
When a warlock brings spellpower buff alike wrath or Replenishment, although in diferent specs, but nonetheless the option is there...
When a hunter brings 10% AP aura, Replenishment, MD, CC...
When rogues, at a minor level, can Tricks and could debuff armor, although not really the best case...

Where's the real limit between hybrid and pure. I kinda agree with the fact if that what one class brings is solely dps and the other brings equal dps and utility as well, would be unfair, but at least the vision I have inside my guild is that rogues albeit their top dps are very "self-sustaining" in terms that they have cds to protect them, thus diminishing heal needed at them.

At my guild we usually bring players because we know they are good and don't stand in void zones or get out of fires and stuff like that, so I don't really see that argument of why would you bring someone of that class, cutting for me.

If, though, that would be the case in that it's not fair...why not increase "pures" utility, giving them other tools to use? Blizz clearly showed they have no problem with that giving them stuff like Replenishment...why not go further in that route?

Lemina · 05/31/09, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by T.K.

When a mage brings Replenishment, a mandatory buff in raids by Blizz pov...

Just pointing this out, a mage's replenishment is actually pretty terrible, bad enough that you don't even want to max the talent if you are really using it for replenishment - assuming no one else can provide it, since everyone else's replenishment is better.

Plus frost specs are currently in a bad state aside from having imp blizzard on runemaster last.

J1M · 05/31/09, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by T.K.

Point granted about pure classes, but...

When a mage brings Replenishment, a mandatory buff in raids by Blizz pov...
When a warlock brings spellpower buff alike wrath or Replenishment, although in diferent specs, but nonetheless the option is there...
When a hunter brings 10% AP aura, Replenishment, MD, CC...
When rogues, at a minor level, can Tricks and could debuff armor, although not really the best case...

Where's the real limit between hybrid and pure. I kinda agree with the fact if that what one class brings is solely dps and the other brings equal dps and utility as well, would be unfair, but at least the vision I have inside my guild is that rogues albeit their top dps are very "self-sustaining" in terms that they have cds to protect them, thus diminishing heal needed at them.

At my guild we usually bring players because we know they are good and don't stand in void zones or get out of fires and stuff like that, so I don't really see that argument of why would you bring someone of that class, cutting for me.

If, though, that would be the case in that it's not fair...why not increase "pures" utility, giving them other tools to use? Blizz clearly showed they have no problem with that giving them stuff like Replenishment...why not go further in that route?

A buff is not utility.

Originally Posted by Lesrek

Which is why I would like to see blizz give more utility to the pure classes. Give rogues an "Oh Shit" ability that can save the mage. Although having the 5% penalty now is needed, I hope in the future that dps is dps, and you can truly bring whoever you want.

I also forsee them making some of our utility part of our rotation. Casting AoW give you a bonus to your next attack or something along those lines can complicate our rotation and still allow us the freedom to save the sucker who ate the fire.

If you want to play a rogue, play a rogue.

Alleyra · 05/31/09, 2:38 AM

Originally Posted by T.K.

In that same fight, I'm behind many classes, even doing that. Clearly some fights favor other classes and some specs are favored by the moment currently in gear, like feral druids, but what I think we should have is a rotation capable, is solely doing it, to achieve higher levels of dps.

I agree that we have the OPTION of using utility, wich a rogue does not have, but if we forsake that utility, why do we have to be penalized ahead of time and not be able to push more dps?

This is something that I recall mentioning a few months ago and the discussion seemingly died off: perhaps in favor of gearing, or giving people time to test/gain perspective on where we stand versus other Hybrids. I still find myself at the same conclusion that was gleamed then: we are fine in multi-target/AoE situations, but we are seemingly lackluster when it comes to single-target encounters. Hopefully whatever resolution is reached with Exorcism and an effect on CS will cinch up this issue: but it remains something that needs address.

Originally Posted by T.K.

Point granted about pure classes, but...

When a mage brings Replenishment, a mandatory buff in raids by Blizz pov...
When a warlock brings spellpower buff alike wrath or Replenishment, although in diferent specs, but nonetheless the option is there...
When a hunter brings 10% AP aura, Replenishment, MD, CC...
When rogues, at a minor level, can Tricks and could debuff armor, although not really the best case...

Where's the real limit between hybrid and pure. I kinda agree with the fact if that what one class brings is solely dps and the other brings equal dps and utility as well, would be unfair, but at least the vision I have inside my guild is that rogues albeit their top dps are very "self-sustaining" in terms that they have cds to protect them, thus diminishing heal needed at them.

At my guild we usually bring players because we know they are good and don't stand in void zones or get out of fires and stuff like that, so I don't really see that argument of why would you bring someone of that class, cutting for me.

If, though, that would be the case in that it's not fair...why not increase "pures" utility, giving them other tools to use? Blizz clearly showed they have no problem with that giving them stuff like Replenishment...why not go further in that route?

While I do agree re: potential for a good Ret Paladin to out-play a mediocre Rogue should yield the Paladin doing better damage, I think you may be confusing what defines a Hybrid as a Hybrid.

Undoubtedly every class brings some sort of utility or functionality, which is a wise decision on Blizzard's part, because it prevents an individual or group from being able to point at a class and say, "They bring utility and therefore should do less damage/healing/etc." Just think Shadow Priests pre-WotLK. Terrible, terrible damage output, but the only real source of mana and passive HP-regen. Ret was a similar niche role in TBC. Paladins, in general, prior to TBC, were the premier utility class, and we saw how well that worked out. It was a tedious, un-fun class.

Hybrids are considered hyrbids for their ability to spec out of or into a different role. Rogues, Hunters, Warlocks, and Mages will always be DPS. Period. Sure they have different specs for different occasions, and they do provide utility, but their role in every environment is to deal damage. Every other class in the game can spec out of a DPS role and into a healing or tanking role. When you enter into the arena of Hybrid versus Pure debate, utility is pretty much a null issue. Can we debate that some classes' utility is more effective or better in certain situations than others? Absolutely. But utility is not what defines a Hybrid as such.

Originally Posted by J1M

A buff is not utility.

This is an absolutely boggling statement. Everything quoted in T.K.'s post most certainly falls into the utility category.

T.K. · 05/31/09, 3:50 AM

Indeed, Alleyra, I recall your concernings back then and I actually agreed and started thinking into that direction since your post back in the day.

To be exact, Blizz pov of view of hybrids kinda differ from what I perceive hybrids as, but I do guess that my point of view is moot when we're talking about their game. For me I realize hybrids as classes that would bring some type of utility added with their main role, for example, bringing buffs along dps, bringing supportive buffs along heals and whatnot.

When a rogue, for example, starts to be able to do other stuff besides only bringing dps (and not switch roles, like tanking or healing, but bringing utility) I see it as an attempt to hybridize him. But, once again, that's my sole point of view.

I do agree that the current pure classes role is dps and they have no option whatsoever outside of that but if we were to get a hybrid and a pure, in a close fight scenario where you have to beat an enrage timer, for example, like Hodir. Both have to bring max dps albeit the diferent utility capabilities of both. If your raid does the encounter perfectly and the hybrid doesn't have to even touch it's utility buttons and neither the pure. If the fight doesn't have any wierd mechanic and both play equaly well and can have equal terms in the fight (buffs, position, time dpsing...) the hybrid is simply handicapped and by default doing worse.

Why is that if the hybrid performs a unique role (dps), not using any utility, using everything possible to achieve maximum dps, considered fair and balanced by Blizz and so many? Im my opinion, we should be able to actually have the option to choose if we wan't to loose the dps to be able to use utility or maintain max dps and forgo utility.

Besides that, if all hybrids are just capped lower then all the pures and by Blizz saying you should be able to get any type of raid combination as long as you have the set of bonuses and everything else covered, would this raid have a much lower dps if filled with hybrids?
Even moreso, the encounters, specially hard modes, would be tuned as such the dps recquired to do them would allow this lower raid dps?
If it allows the lower hybrid dps, are hard modes really hard modes as you could bring only pures or a mix of pures and hybrids that would generate highest raid dps and thus more easily beat the encounter?
Wouldn't this type of design bring back the raid stacking setup we raid all during TBC?

P.S. Sorry for my stupid english >.<

Alleyra · 05/31/09, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by T.K.

Why is that if the hybrid performs a unique role (dps), not using any utility, using everything possible to achieve maximum dps, considered fair and balanced by Blizz and so many? Im my opinion, we should be able to actually have the option to choose if we wan't to loose the dps to be able to use utility or maintain max dps and forgo utility.

Besides that, if all hybrids are just capped lower then all the pures and by Blizz saying you should be able to get any type of raid combination as long as you have the set of bonuses and everything else covered, would this raid have a much lower dps if filled with hybrids?
Even moreso, the encounters, specially hard modes, would be tuned as such the dps recquired to do them would allow this lower raid dps?
If it allows the lower hybrid dps, are hard modes really hard modes as you could bring only pures or a mix of pures and hybrids that would generate highest raid dps and thus more easily beat the encounter?
Wouldn't this type of design bring back the raid stacking setup we raid all during TBC?

I truly understand and sympathize with your point. I want to be the best possible DPS I can be. (usually chasing one of the guild's Rogues or a DK.) It drives me nuts when I see players who work half as hard to achieve the same level of damage output. The one thing to bear in mind is that we do provide a baseline form of utility through our standard rotation. I am not attempting to rationalize or justify the single-target disparity that exists, but rather point this out.

When a Ret Paladin does damage, s/he is always providing a(n) Aura, Judgement of Wisdom/Light/Justice, Replenishment, healing via DS, +3% Haste/Crit/Damage -- all of these are passive or baked-in pieces of utility in our basic rotation. Additionally, the up-time on JoL can be massive for certain encounters, (especially Vezax) arguably a necessity in Hard Modes. Again, I don't think this justifies anything, as it all qualifies as utility: but I think a raid would be foolish not to bring along a competent Ret player, with the ability to deal quality damage, because they will always get the utility that comes along with them.

That being said; if Ret's damage output slips far below other classes, not just Hybrids, (since most of us are still going through the gearing process) then there certainly will be a resurgence of the min/max, "Paladins can't keep up on damage" mentality.

J1M · 05/31/09, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Alleyra

This is an absolutely boggling statement. Everything quoted in T.K.'s post most certainly falls into the utility category.

When you can acquire every buff in the game with 10 or 11 players, bringing a buff or two means nothing. Expecting to bring two of a single spec in a raid when there are 30 specs and 25 spots is silly... and not utility. Arguing for 2 ret paladins in a 25man is like saying "we should bring 4 or more rogues".

Divine Sacrifice and Sacred Shield are utility. Offtanking is utility. Offhealing is utility. etc.

Kaprina · 05/31/09, 12:25 PM

This is something that I recall mentioning a few months ago and the discussion seemingly died off: perhaps in favor of gearing, or giving people time to test/gain perspective on where we stand versus other Hybrids. I still find myself at the same conclusion that was gleamed then: we are fine in multi-target/AoE situations, but we are seemingly lackluster when it comes to single-target encounters. Hopefully whatever resolution is reached with Exorcism and an effect on CS will cinch up this issue: but it remains something that needs address.

Yeah, I echoed your concern then, and even posted the top dps results from various classes that showed how poorly ret was doing. Then we had a bunch of people jump down our throat because there was 'not enough data.' Well, a month (two?) later, and many sub-hard bis-equipped rets out there and the situation is exactly the same, if not worse. My only hope is that bliz finally gets it right with 3.2 and we don't have to wallow in mediocrity for yet another patch cycle...

Regarding our utility and relative dps, I'm not sure what you all are debating. GC has explicitly stated that the 'hybrid tax' is entirely due to the hybrid's ability to fulfill multiple roles on a raid. Since we can tank or heal, we have to do less dps than the pure classes, even if we never actually do tank or heal. By current design philosophy, we should be ~5% behind pures. Obviously, we're not even close right now, but that's not intentional. I think they have basically just decided to let us sit where we are until they roll out the overhaul they have coming, rather than waste time fiddling with our current numbers that are all likely going to change come 3.2...

Babathong · 05/31/09, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by J1M

When you can acquire every buff in the game with 10 or 11 players, bringing a buff or two means nothing. Expecting to bring two of a single spec in a raid when there are 30 specs and 25 spots is silly... and not utility. Arguing for 2 ret paladins in a 25man is like saying "we should bring 4 or more rogues".

Divine Sacrifice and Sacred Shield are utility. Offtanking is utility. Offhealing is utility. etc.

Yes, these things all happen to be utilities, however most top end guilds wont require the ret paladin to be offtanking, or offhealing. There are very few occurrences where Divine Sacrifice is actually making a noticeable difference. Normal bubble sac is better imo, and we dont have to even spec for it.

Bottom line is that ret pallies have the abilitiy to heal, and mitigate some raid damage, but with that said, how often are u all really finding yourselves doing this.

• frmorrison · 05/31/09, 2:17 PM

Originally Posted by J1M

When you can acquire every buff in the game with 10 or 11 players, bringing a buff or two means nothing. Expecting to bring two of a single spec in a raid when there are 30 specs and 25 spots is silly... and not utility. Arguing for 2 ret paladins in a 25man is like saying "we should bring 4 or more rogues".

Divine Sacrifice and Sacred Shield are utility. Offtanking is utility. Offhealing is utility. etc.

2 Ret does bring something more than a more Rogues, DiSac (while not the most useful, it helps), additional healing from DiStorm, and 100% uptime both on JoW/JoL. That utility isn't high, but it is something more than another Rogue.

Sometimes that utility can be the difference between a win or loss.