3.1 Retribution Paladin Thread - Page 9

flyingtoastr · 04/15/09, 3:36 PM

Originally Posted by aylen86

The tooltip says: Up to a maximum of 150% of the Paladin's health. Considering proper functionality, using Divine Sacrifice in combination with Divine Protection should bring you down to 25% and not lower. This should be tested and probably reported as a bug when it kills you instantly.

Not quite. Raid buffed I have some 25k health. Assuming it is acting correctly I would therefore take a maxed 19.5k damage from Divine Sacrifice plus the normal damage I take from the AoE (in the case of heroic Flame Jets between 4.2k and 6k damage). Thus between the two I'm taking at least 23.7k and at most 25.5k (dead) in that one split second, even with shield wall up.

Again, its still a great ability, but I would have preferred the bonus from Divine Guardian to do something other than making it more bursty and deadly as seen here.

flexbutt · 04/15/09, 3:38 PM

Originally Posted by Dragonlover

In that case, DS is better than CS, because it also procs SoB (if I'm not mistaken), RV and has slightly bigger crits (even with the libram) and heals as well.

Not quite sure how DS would grant higher RV than CS. On a 10 minute boss dummy parse with blessing of might, my DS crits averaged 5k while CS crits averaged 5.5k, and I am using the CS libram.

If you look at the talented tooltips for each, DS does 110% weapon damage, while CS does 137-138% weapon damage plus the libram.

TheEnder · 04/15/09, 3:48 PM

Moving the topic a little...

Has anyone run the numbers on the new RV?

I know it was reduced to 30% but my -average- ticks are coming out as 600-700... which means my base damage is around 8k for the average tick. I crit-alot, and have the RV rolling -alot-. The average tick should be quite a bit higher if it is rolling correctly and doing damage correctly.

I'll see if I can get some more accurate information once I get to a fight that's more tank and spank... or I'll just attempt to use the dummies to test... but was wondering if anyone else noticed this.

Dragonlover · 04/15/09, 4:00 PM

Originally Posted by flexbutt

Not quite sure how DS would grant higher RV than CS. On a 10 minute boss dummy parse with blessing of might, my DS crits averaged 5k while CS crits averaged 5.5k, and I am using the CS libram.

If you look at the talented tooltips for each, DS does 110% weapon damage, while CS does 137-138% weapon damage plus the libram.

Well, I have no idea. My average CS is 5k and average DS is 5.4k. I will keep testing further.

madmardigan83 · 04/15/09, 4:12 PM

TheEnder:
You will see some partial resists on the RV tick now. This is intended, but might account for some of the reduction you are seeing.

Exemplar · 04/15/09, 4:20 PM

Originally Posted by Avitus

Answer my question:

Once again, how is it realistic to base an optimum sequence on lower average cooldowns netted by reduced clashes if it depends on the perfect execution of a couple hundred keypresses given a "fixed" time, "fixed" constant lag/delay and no changing fight conditions?
You do understand that if at any point you delay, get a minor lag spike, boss moves out of your range momentarily, you cast some other spell which eats a GCD (AoE FoL, Sacred Shield or what not) this advantage is wasted and everything changes?

I think this is another situation of both of us arguing the same point with the same conclusion from different angles. At request I will answer both questions.

Answer #1 - Who said it was realistic? I never have.

People were questioning priorities and how they were derived - I took your initial query as to how they were derived, not an excuse to assail your personally mathed and selected priority sequence. Ad hominem attacks are unnecessary. The tools are to derive maximum theoretical DPS in static situations so you can compare apples and apples. Glyph to Glyph, Talent to Talent (as if we had more DPS altering talents than points), and Item to Item.

Answer #2 - Yes. Any perceived advantage could be wasted.

Will a priority sequence spit out by these tools be ideal in every or even a majority of circumstances? I'd say, no. Will a priority based solely on DPS of each ability be ideal in every or even a majority of circumstances? Again, no and I'm not going to assume you claim it is. Will either produce something "good enough?" I'd say, yes. Will the DPS based one be superior more frequently? Inconclusive, most priority setups effectively become a rotation as they exactly ropeat every 20-30 (most, not all) - if you could keep this much time on target in a chunk then something else may be superior - but typically only by ~1%.

If a target is being constantly kited (I mean no pauses at all) it may be advantageous to move, say, DS ahead of CS, simply because pressing CS when in range and having the server decide "you're not actually in range, please try again" is lost DPS and DS hits from further than CS. These are the on-the-fly decisions made to separate good Ret from great Ret.

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is."

Conclusion:
A merely okay Ret paladin would take the priority you have provided or one from a spreadsheet or Rawr. The good or excellent paladins (as you've shown yourself via WWS and considerable experience) know it is far more fluid and are therefore more likely to press the right button in the right situation, even if their priority didn't kneejerk recommend it.

Edit - oh, yeah, and any time you're off the target for more than ~15 seconds, Judgement should be highly important (and typically a no-brainer during those last 10 yds) due to raid utility of Heart and healing from JoL. I even said I personally use Exo during a move-the-boss pull for distance reasons. There goes the perfect priority!

Avitus · 04/15/09, 4:57 PM

Which is why I think something such as a "priority calculator" provided by the script is completely irrelevant, if not misleading.
You have people using your spreadsheet thinking "oh, it said this rotation is recommended, I'm sure this is important" where in practice, chances are incredibly low that what the script tried to model will actually happen (let alone the fact that it gives you 20 possible priority assignments with <.01% difference).

As we both seem to agree, in practice, combat is dynamic, fluid and will never ever go as inked on paper. Keep in mind I'm not saying "all theorycraft is unrealistic", I draw the line somewhere between 3-6 moves you need to perform perfectly as realistic and something like 20-30 moves you need to do perfectly to net a benefit as highly unrealistic.

The common practice when you reach this point in theory is that you move to a higher level of abstraction, which in our case means going back to fundamentals:

->Trying to reduce the average cooldown of the abilities that yield highest DPS by prioritizing them (and ignoring unrealistic goals such as clash reduction/avoidance 20-30 moves ahead). I've yet to see any other suggestion that can provide "provable", realistically executable benefits.

So yea, ultimately combat is fluid, not predictable and obviously common sense always supersedes, however past that, sticking to "highest DPS first" as a rule of thumb remains the best way to go in order to increase chances of a better yielding cast sequence over any other suggested priority lists which hope to achieve benefits through (keyword: unrealistic) clash reduction.

Jonuts · 04/15/09, 8:46 PM

Key word: rule of thumb. Sit down and play your class for a while, and you know when to toss rule of thumb out the window.

ex: For whatever reason you're running low on mana. Move Judgement up on priority. Duh.
ex2: AoE trash. Why the hell wouldn't you prioritize DS and Consecrate?

For the overwhelming majority of the time though, the rule of thumb is what you stick by. Just don't get yourself so stuck to it that you can't adapt as needed.

• Zurm · 04/15/09, 9:30 PM

Just to throw some practical experience into this discussion, I wanted to mention my take on our "rotation" from the bosses I have done so far.

Mana isn't an issue if JoW is on your target, so I put judgement on the backburner. HOW > CS > DS > Judge > Consec > Exor in this case has worked for me very well. On fights where JoW is not available, I move judgement to the front of the list, and all my problems are solved.

For those saying CS hits harder than DS, it's hitting exactly 10% harder because of your T7 2pc. They hit exactly the same otherwise, and while the 2pc may be relevant to theorycrafting right now, it won't be for long. CS still should be higher priority, because of the faster CD (at least, IMO, and our modeling tools all agree).

A few other notes from my experience in Ulduar-25. AoW heals are crucial, and the fact that they dont' reset your swing timer is awesome. I would also say SS is required, along with the divine sac/divine guardian talents due to mechanics in certain fights.

Those worried about our DPS shouldn't be. I am placing 4-6th on every fight so far except for Iron Council (the casters got lucky with runes), and the players in my guild are all (again, IMO) quite good. I'm consistantly beating hunters, usually sit behind the two rogues, and some combination of warlocks and mages, or the occasional DK.

Avitus · 04/15/09, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by Zurm

For those saying CS hits harder than DS, it's hitting exactly 10% harder because of your T7 2pc. They hit exactly the same otherwise

Zurm I think you're forgetting Sanctity of Battle

CS should always hit harder than DS (by 5% if 2pieceT7 or 15% otherwise). As you put it however, yes it's ultimately irrelevant as it's DPS that matters and not simply damage, the CS cooldown seals the deal.

Originally Posted by Zurm

Those worried about our DPS shouldn't be. I am placing 4-6th on every fight so far except for Iron Council (the casters got lucky with runes), and the players in my guild are all (again, IMO) quite good. I'm consistantly beating hunters, usually sit behind the two rogues, and some combination of warlocks and mages, or the occasional DK.

I can echo that, we just had the world first on Thorim hardmode and I finished in the top 5. The fight did have a fairly heavy aoe phase however.

Bosses where Ret really excels have been Razorscale and Kologarn (you can actually hit all 3 parts of him with your DS/Consecration spiking your damage significantly, topping meter or within the top 3).

This is despite having to prioritize Judgement most of this reset since we don't have much JoW uptime as we're only running 2 paladins so far (1 Ret = JoL is too vital not to have at 100% uptime, 1 holy = JoW with low uptime, can't blame em on heavy hitting progression content).

Originally Posted by Jonuts

ex: For whatever reason you're running low on mana. Move Judgement up on priority. Duh.
ex2: AoE trash. Why the hell wouldn't you prioritize DS and Consecrate?

For the overwhelming majority of the time though, the rule of thumb is what you stick by. Just don't get yourself so stuck to it that you can't adapt as needed.

I'm not sure any of this needs spelling out, regardless how clueless we assume some people might be. What's important is that the rule of thumb they can fall back on actually is in their best interest. Nothing replaces common sense however.

lawlbringer · 04/15/09, 10:35 PM

I noticed in the potion section that only speed/mana were listed. Not sure if its been thought of or math done on the old mega thread. What about http://http://www.wowhead.com/?item=22828

Insane strength pots offer
120 strength
138 strength after talents
151 strength after talents+kings

300 attack power isn't bad. Especially if timed with a bloodlust or avenging wrath. I used them to some success in the past However I will leave the math to the experts as patch just hit and I'm sure things will be a mess for a little while.

• frmorrison · 04/15/09, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by lawlbringer

300 attack power isn't bad. Especially if timed with a bloodlust or avenging wrath.

1 AP is worth about 0.67 dps, while 1 haste is worth about 0.75 dps. Now look at the speed potion, it gives 500 haste, that is the one to use.

You should use potions with Wings and/or Lust.

gmedina · 04/15/09, 11:42 PM

exemplar is there a reason wrathstone is not included in your spreadsheet or is this a simple oversight?

Just trying to figure your if pyrite is really worth it since we are over hit capped?

p.s. can you explain how to add items as new items become available?

edit: seems wrathstone is in the drop down but if you select it you get an error in your spreadsheet, FYI i think it may have a bug.

J1M · 04/16/09, 12:23 AM

I don't understand why I see so many people taking the 5% increased healing talent. (And yes I am aware of the double bonus when healing yourself)

In fact, this looks like the only sensible talent spec, unless your guild does not have a holy paladin.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...0&version=9767

What am I missing?

Aside: Being able to use a resist aura all the time is really nice, and perhaps the best ret change in 3.1.

Vectivus · 04/16/09, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by J1M

I don't understand why I see so many people taking the 5% increased healing talent. (And yes I am aware of the double bonus when healing yourself)

In fact, this looks like the only sensible talent spec, unless your guild does not have a holy paladin.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...0&version=9767

What am I missing?

You're taking Imp HoJ over Imp BoM, for one. Unless you run multiple Holy Paladins who coordinate specs, there's no guarantee anyone else is providing Imp BoM, and Imp HoJ is not a strictly PvE-relevant talent.

Other than that, though, there's nothing wrong with what you've suggested. The increased healing talent is a flavour choice, IMO.