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Old 04/30/09, 2:28 PM   #151
AlcapwnedYou
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Eredar
Originally Posted by CJ101 View Post
Divine sacrifice is limited to 150% of the paladins health for the damage shared per player, it can absorb 24 times 150% of the paladins health in a heroic raid. On XT002 130K absorbtion during the tantrum is normal.
The original post states:
Divine Sacrifice
A retooled version of Divine Guardian added in 3.1. You will almost always need to use this spell while bubbling to not risk dying. This can be some nice utility especially in 10 man raids, but in 25mans it will only absorb ~1.5k hp per person before expiring due to the damage cap.

So which is it - per person or total? From the description of the ability I would assume it is a total value. If it is per person, that makes Divine Sacrifice an amazingly effective mitigation talent.

Also, from what I have read the 150% cap was/is based on not having Divine Shield up. What is the final verdict on this? Is it uncapped based on Divine Shield being up and thus damage not being taken by the player, hence why the 150% cap is never reached during the duration? Let's update the page to reflect those mechanics if that is indeed the case.

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Old 04/30/09, 2:56 PM   #152
Jaydin
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Runetotem
The total damage redirected is capped by the paladin's health. Therefore, in a 25 man raid, you would be able to redirect only about 1.5k damage per person (25*1.5k = 37.5k and that's talking about a prot paladin using it). The 150% cap has been confirmed to kick in regardless of bubble being up or down. Bubble being up simply means you don't get insta-gibbed.

'...but making us fight the same boss 30 times with new "exciting" changes like doing it with our pants below our ankles for one kill, tying one hand behind our back for another, and blindfolding ourselves for the next kill...loses its "epic"ness for me.'

"Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me."

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Old 04/30/09, 3:04 PM   #153
Endoscient
King Hippo
 
Goblin Shaman
 
Illidan
Divine Sacrifice's damage cap behaved oddly with Divine Shield when 3.1 came out. Sometimes it would fall off early, sometimes it wouldn't, but it seems like 3.1.1 fixed the irregularities.

What I said in the first post was assuming the whole raid was taking spread out consistent damage. To help illustrate how much it would absorb per person during something like Ignis' Flame Jets or Hodir's Frozen Blows, which seems to be the most popular time for people to use it. If the raid is not taking uniform damage, it can absorb more from the players who take more damage.


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Old 04/30/09, 3:15 PM   #154
Dugarax
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Archimonde
# Paladins
* Divine Sacrifice: Damage done to the Paladin while this is active will no longer cause the effect to break early, and if it is dispelled or cancelled early, the damage counter will reset correctly the next time the spell is cast.
Found on wowraid.com, I don't know if it can be believed since the patch notes are not on the official wow website yet.

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Old 04/30/09, 5:20 PM   #155
Rifk
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Mage
 
Cairne
Originally Posted by Dugarax View Post
Found on wowraid.com, I don't know if it can be believed since the patch notes are not on the official wow website yet.
That was also posted on mmo-champion as well...

Regarding DS, it's common practice to bubble at the same time to prevent instant gibbing of the paladin. However, I have not seen information on these forums regarding the paladin casting Hand of Protection on himself to prevent the damage. Is the damage physical? If so, this would be an excellent way to increase the utility of this talent by allowing the paladin to use it every 2-3 minutes instead of every 5.

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Old 04/30/09, 5:27 PM   #156
 frmorrison
Protector
 
frmorrison's Avatar
 
Ashstrike
Human Paladin
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Rifk View Post
That was also posted on mmo-champion as well...

Regarding DS, it's common practice to bubble at the same time to prevent instant gibbing of the paladin. However, I have not seen information on these forums regarding the paladin casting Hand of Protection on himself to prevent the damage. Is the damage physical? If so, this would be an excellent way to increase the utility of this talent by allowing the paladin to use it every 2-3 minutes instead of every 5.
DiSac redirects the same damage type, so for example on the Cat Lady boss pull you can HoP + DiSac to prevent the damage. However, you may want to cast DiSac a few seconds pre-pull so you don't lose HoP while DiSac is up (both 10 second buffs).

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Old 04/30/09, 7:24 PM   #157
CJ101
Glass Joe
 
Human Paladin
 
Thunderhorn (EU)
Originally Posted by Jaydin View Post
The total damage redirected is capped by the paladin's health. Therefore, in a 25 man raid, you would be able to redirect only about 1.5k damage per person (25*1.5k = 37.5k and that's talking about a prot paladin using it). The 150% cap has been confirmed to kick in regardless of bubble being up or down. Bubble being up simply means you don't get insta-gibbed.
The total damage DS can absorb is not limited to 1.5 times the paladins health. I loaded some logfiles in excel and i find it can absorb much more, therefore I conclude that its 1.5 times the paladins health per player.
Just pop it during the tympanic Tantrum from XT-002 while standing in range of most players. I can post the logs to show this, you probably can simulate it easy by jumping with a group from a high place

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Old 04/30/09, 7:29 PM   #158
Lightbender
Von Kaiser
 
Lightbender's Avatar
 
Human Paladin
 
Ravenholdt
The total damage DS can absorb is not limited to 1.5 times the paladins health. I loaded some logfiles in excel and i find it can absorb much more, therefore I conclude that its 1.5 times the paladins health per player.
This conclusion is nonsensical, like saying apples aren't purple therefore they must be blue. Find some data to support it absorbing that much (1.5 times your hp per player, tantrum is a good place to test). Just because it fails to match one model doesn't necessarily mean it has to follow another, it could very easily be a bug.

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Old 04/30/09, 8:00 PM   #159
Ranjurm
Piston Honda
 
Draenei Paladin
 
Arathor
A person willing to sacrifice them-self on Saph seems like a good test as well, very high damage when he uses his ice bomb.

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Old 04/30/09, 11:20 PM   #160
Soul
Don Flamenco
 
Undead Mage
 
Gilneas
Divine Sacrifice, Simultaneity and Latency

There aren't many ways to implement a skill like Divine Sacrifice and the big issue with all the ways of implementing such a skill is that events that effect Divine Sacrifice tend to happen simultaneously. This implies that regardless of latency (which I will get to later), Divine Sacrifice will ALWAYS absorb more than 150% of the Paladin's health. Latency means that even after Divine Sacrifice has absorbed more than 150% of the caster's health, the buff might still remain on some players, affecting the amount of damage they take (and hence, what is recorded in the combat log).

Divine Sacrifice Algorithms

There are a few ways to implement a skill like Divine Sacrifice, but most of them probably look like the one I'm about to describe. When the Paladin casts the spell Divine Sacrifice, he becomes the focal point of an aura centred on himself that affects all people in a 30 yard radius. These people gain a buff that negates 30% of the damage they would have taken without the buff (in other words, it is applied last). Prior to 3.1.0, this damage was simply applied to the Paladin. If the Paladin died, the aura dissipated and combat proceeded as normal. This skill largely resembled Soul Link, but for the entire raid with the Paladin as the HP sink. In 3.1, the developers, seeking to nerf the efficacy of this skill imposed a cap on the amount of damage redirected.

There are a number of ways to implement this. They are likely to be variants on these two forms:
1. One could assign a "HP bank" with 150% of the Paladin's HP, sort of like Power Word:Shield. Every time someone takes damage, 30% of the damage is taken out of the bank, up to the point where the bank is empty. This damage is applied to the Paladin. When the HP bank is depleted, (that is, someone tries to draw out more than is in the bank) then only the remainder of the HP is redirected out and the buff is removed.

2. One redirects the HP as in 3.1.0, but keeps a running total of HP redirected. When amount of HP redirected exceeds 150% of the Paladin's HP, the buff is removed.
Method 1 is accurate. Method 2, however, is simpler (that is faster) and has the advantage of being able to be built on top of existing code. Also, given the available evidence (has anyone ever seen a parse where "odd" amounts of damage were absorbed?) it's strongly likely that Method 2 was used. In fact, odds are that at one point, the running total was maintained by checking the amount of damage Divine Sacrifice did to the Paladin, but then, the developers realized that Divine Shield was negating the damage entirely.

Simultaneity

Each person's total HP is likely maintained by one or more threads that don't have anything to do with other peoples' HP. Each thread independently tracks a shared resource shared by all the other threads (either the status of the HP bank or the running total of HP absorbed). So, when simultaneous events occur, each thread performs the operation on the HP total they are tracking and then they reconcile it using a different process. This process gives rise to a race condition.

For instance, let's assume that you have a raid of 26 people (for nice, easy numbers) with the same amount of HP and zero latency. The boss they are fighting has a skill that removes 10% of everybody's maximum HP every second for 12 seconds. The Paladin, seeing this, casts Divine Shield followed by Divine Sacrifice before the first tick. It's pretty obvious what should happen here: every second, the Paladin redirects 3% x 25 = 75% of his maximum HP; after two seconds, everyone has taken 14% of their maximum HP while the Paladin has negated 150% of his own maximum HP worth of damage, so Divine Sacrifice ends. This is true regardless of what algorithm is used to track Divine Sacrifice.

Now assume the same raid above, but that the Paladin has one more hitpoint than the other people in the raid. After two seconds, the paladin has redirected (150%-1) of his HP, so there is still 1.5 more HP to be absorbed.

Under Method 1 of implementing Divine Sacrifice, each thread has a copy of the HP bank saying that there is 1.5 HP left to be absorbed, so when the third tick happens, everyone takes 10% of their maximum health less 1.5 HP. Everyone draws 1.5 HP out of the "HP bank", they reconcile and there's a negative amount of HP in the bank. Ideally, you'd reconcile this too, and reassign damage to whoever's in the raid, but this is a real time application and there are more important things to keep track of. Besides, such a reconciliation would have to show up in the combat log and you'd look bad when HP levels start fluctuating due to "reconciliation". So you let it go. In the end, the Paladin casting Divine Sacrifice has redirected 150% of his HP plus an additional 36 HP.

Under Method 2 of implementing Divine Sacrifice, each thread has their copy of the running total of HP as being less than the maximum amount to be absorbed. They redirect 30% of the damage taken to the running total. When the running total is next reconciled, the total amount of HP redirected has exceeded 150% of the HP of the Paladin. Divine Sacrifice is removed and the Paladin has effectively absorbed 225% of his total HP (less one).

As you can see, under either method of doing this the Paladin has redirected more HP than the skill says it will.

Latency

It's fairly well known how WoW handles buff removal. In the case of Divine Sacrifice, it's most likely implemented as an aura centred on the casting Paladin. When Divine Sacrifice is removed by damage, the server "dispels" the buff from the Paladin. Without the aura, the buff is removed from everyone else in the raid. This means that a message saying "remove Divine Sacrifice" gets sent from the server to the Paladin's client removing the aura, which generates an acknowledgement from the Paladin's client to the server, who then sends a message to all the other people in the raid telling them to remove Divine Sacrifice, which they acknowledge, after which no more damage is being redirected by Divine Sacrifice. This process can take a while depending on latency. In the meantime, the Divine Sacrifice buff is still up.

If Method 1 of implementing Divine Sacrifice is used, then you get periods where the Divine Sacrifice buff is present, but no damage is redirected. This shows up in combat logs and you look bad.

If Method 2 of implementing Divine Sacrifice is used, damage is redirected until this process is complete. (Much) more damage is absorbed than implied by the tooltip and you get lots of speculative posts on forums about how Divine Sacrifice works...

Conclusion

Snark aside, it is difficult to conceive of a method by which the folks at Blizzard came up with a way to perfectly implement a skill like Divine Sacrifice (at least with the technology they have today). Regardless of how it was implemented, it would nearly always redirect more HP than advertised while at the same time being sort of a resource hog and generating bizarre looking combat logs for us users to pore over.

Last edited by Soul : 04/30/09 at 11:28 PM.

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Old 04/30/09, 11:48 PM   #161
Endoscient
King Hippo
 
Goblin Shaman
 
Illidan
Your post is entirely baseless conjecture on how Divine Sacrifice could work. It is possible that DS could absorb more then its damage cap because of simultaneous damage, it also just as possible for it not absorb extra amounts (it isn't that difficult for threads to use shared resources). We have no way of know how Blizzard coded Divine Sacrifice, we need to determine how exactly it works from analysis of in game experiments.


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Old 05/01/09, 12:26 AM   #162
Dugarax
Von Kaiser
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Archimonde
Originally Posted by CJ101 View Post
The total damage DS can absorb is not limited to 1.5 times the paladins health. I loaded some logfiles in excel and i find it can absorb much more, therefore I conclude that its 1.5 times the paladins health per player.
Just pop it during the tympanic Tantrum from XT-002 while standing in range of most players. I can post the logs to show this, you probably can simulate it easy by jumping with a group from a high place
Tested several times tonight as well on Mimiron and Yogg-Saron, Divine Sacrifice dropped instantly on Mimiron and after about 6 seconds on Yogg-Saron.

If it absorbed 150% of the paladins hp per player, it means every player in the raid would have taken 93,750 damage in about 1 second. There is no way that can happen.

HP raid buffed: ~25k
150% of hp: 37.5k
Damage Transferred: 40% (With Divine Guardian)

40 / 100 = 37.5k / X

X = 93,750

That theory is to be excluded. As other people have pointed out, you will be absorbing more damage because of simultaneous damage and lag between the clients and the server.

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Old 05/01/09, 1:44 AM   #163
Soul
Don Flamenco
 
Undead Mage
 
Gilneas
Originally Posted by Endoscient View Post
Your post is entirely baseless conjecture on how Divine Sacrifice could work. It is possible that DS could absorb more then its damage cap because of simultaneous damage, it also just as possible for it not absorb extra amounts (it isn't that difficult for threads to use shared resources). We have no way of know how Blizzard coded Divine Sacrifice, we need to determine how exactly it works from analysis of in game experiments.
Show me one instance where Divine Sacrifice has absorbed less than 150% of a Paladin's HP. This log establishes that the baseline absorption of Divine Guardian is less than 180% of the paladin's maximum HP (from this post in the Ret forum).

Taking note of the fact that the combat log sometimes seems to prioritize some absorption effects over others (this log demonstrates this effect quite well with the "6558 absorbed" messages overriding the Divine Sacrifice absorptions), show me one instance of Divine Sacrifice absorbing some amount that's less than 30% or 40% of the total damage. Particularly just before it ends.

Show me one log where Divine Sacrifice ends in the middle of a group of people taking damage simultaneously. That is, show me a log where, when a bunch of people take damage from AoE, some people get absorbs from Divine Sacrifice while others don't due to the buff expiring.

There are hundreds of logs out there, surely some of these things are happening if I'm entirely off-base. If you can't show me any of those things, then I'd say my conjectures are pretty damn well-founded.

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Old 05/01/09, 1:55 AM   #164
Feya
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Mal'Ganis
On an interesting note tonight I found that Spiritual Attunement is not impacted by the Generals mana-regen-crippling aura.

The build previously mentioned by myself, is terrible in usage. We dropped a healer and the builds reactivity was just too slow to use. Can't imagine that would get any better till you get to ridiculous levels of haste. Cheers

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Old 05/01/09, 2:17 AM   #165
Endoscient
King Hippo
 
Goblin Shaman
 
Illidan
Originally Posted by Soul View Post
There are hundreds of logs out there, surely some of these things are happening if I'm entirely off-base. If you can't show me any of those things, then I'd say my conjectures are pretty damn well-founded.
When you offer up (or support) a new theory, a much better argument is to showcase logs exhibiting your expected behavior. Instead of stating it is true until someone disproves you. You also stated two possible ways Divine Sacrifice could behave, so how can you say they are well founded when you don't even agree with yourself on which way it works.

I did agree it was possible for Divine Sacrifice to absorb a little bit more then its Damage Cap because of simultaneous damage and lag. What your post was trying to explain is exactly how much more and under what circumstances. Which is much more difficult to determine from a combat log, because of inability to recreate raid circumstances (simultaneous damage) and difficulty to tell the reasoning for people not absorbing damage in a non controlled environment (a raid) from the combat log. For instance they might of went out of range, or what the exact hp of the Paladin was when DS was cast. Here is a WWS of some people absorbing damage from Divine Sacrifice and some people not which all occurred at the same time.

Last edited by Endoscient : 05/01/09 at 2:28 AM.


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