The Holy Paladin Guide for 3.1 - Page 12

Silmeria · 05/01/09, 2:21 AM

Originally Posted by Soul

Show me one log where Divine Sacrifice ends in the middle of a group of people taking damage simultaneously. That is, show me a log where, when a bunch of people take damage from AoE, some people get absorbs from Divine Sacrifice while others don't due to the buff expiring.

I'm not really sure how you can reinforce a point by saying it's true unless someone proves your point false. That's kind of backwards logic.

I mean, it's an interesting theory, but that's about it.

Junlex · 05/01/09, 2:26 AM

I'll try to get a WWS parse uploaded as WMO filters and interprets the logs a bit too much for clarity (hiding absorbs and so on).

Last night's XT-002 kill here: WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish

WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish

As you can see, the Divine Sacrifice buff was up for the entire 10 second duration rather than falling off prematurely.

I bubbled before the tantrum hit, but had to wait for the GCD to cycle before getting Divine Sacrifice up, so the first tick has no absorption. For example:

2009-04-30 19:44:32.500 XT-002 Deconstructor's Tympanic Tantrum hit Aranacule for 2222 damage.
2009-04-30 19:44:32.500 XT-002 Deconstructor's Tympanic Tantrum hit Badangel for 2327 damage.
2009-04-30 19:44:33.703 XT-002 Deconstructor's Tympanic Tantrum hit Aranacule for 1333 damage.
2009-04-30 19:44:33.703 XT-002 Deconstructor's Tympanic Tantrum hit Badangel for 1397 damage.

1333/2222 = 0.5999
1397/2327 = 0.6003

So 40% damage reduction as expected.

The people who seem to be in range of me for several ticks of tantrum are:

Aranacule (base tick 2222, 1333 after sac) - 889 absorbed
Badangel (base tick 2327, 1397 after sac) - 930 absorbed
Billynomates (base tick 1901, 1140 after sac) - 761 absorbed
Aiora (base tick 2143, 1286 after sac) - 857 absorbed
Shifthappens (base tick 2306, 1384 after sac) - 822 absorbed
Sythe (base tick 2524, 1514 after sac) - 1010 absorbed
Rohtgar (base tick 2328, 978 after shamanistic rage + sac) - worst case 652 per tick absorbed due to sacrifice
Agamenon (pet) (base tick 479, 287 after sac) - 192
Scruffy (pet) (base tick 519, 311 after sac) - 208
Pebblecruncher (pet) (base tick 794, 476 after sac) - 318
Kzorch (base tick 2787, 1672 after sac, 1337 after sac + IF) - worst case 892 per tick absorbed due to sacrifice
Morrt (base tick 3151, 1891 after sac) - 1260
Noceodat (base tick 2768, 1661 after sac) - 1107
Syrida (pet) (base tick 374, 218 after sac) - 156
Bonerobber (pet) (base tick 805, 484 after sac) - 321
Palemaster (base tick 2113, 1268 after sac) - 845
Tekana (base tick 2331, 700 after sac + feint) - worst case 466 per tick absorbed due to sacrifice
Kareha (base tick 2272, 1363 after sac) - 909
Findecano (base tick 2264, 1359 after sac) - 905
Highlife (base tick 2850, 1710 after sac) - 1140
Echo (skewed by shield wall, so ignore)
Musgoso (base tick 2437, 731 after sac + feint) - worst case 487 per tick absorbed due to sacrifice

Some people move in and out of range of my sacrifice during tantrum, so not everyone who has it at the start has it at the end, and vice versa, but this should be good enough to get an indication.

Estimate of damage absorbed by divine sacrifice per tick: 15,127

Looking at one person, it seems the last tick was just as effective as the first:

2009-04-30 19:44:32.500 XT-002 Deconstructor's Tympanic Tantrum hit Aranacule for 2222 damage.
2009-04-30 19:44:33.343 Aranacule gains Rhiannon's Divine Sacrifice.
2009-04-30 19:44:33.703 XT-002 Deconstructor's Tympanic Tantrum hit Aranacule for 1333 damage.
2009-04-30 19:44:34.578 XT-002 Deconstructor's Tympanic Tantrum hit Aranacule for 1334 damage.
2009-04-30 19:44:35.750 XT-002 Deconstructor's Tympanic Tantrum hit Aranacule for 1334 damage.
2009-04-30 19:44:36.625 XT-002 Deconstructor's Tympanic Tantrum hit Aranacule for 1334 damage.
2009-04-30 19:44:37.765 XT-002 Deconstructor's Tympanic Tantrum hit Aranacule for 1333 damage.
2009-04-30 19:44:38.593 XT-002 Deconstructor's Tympanic Tantrum hit Aranacule for 1334 damage.
2009-04-30 19:44:39.828 XT-002 Deconstructor's Tympanic Tantrum hit Aranacule for 1334 damage.
2009-04-30 19:44:43.390 Aranacule's Divine Sacrifice ( Rhiannon's buffer ) is removed.
2009-04-30 19:44:43.859 Aranacule's Tympanic Tantrum ( XT-002 Deconstructor's debuffer ) is removed. <- curious that when they shortened the duration of tantrum, they let the debuff tick for its original duration, it just stops dealing damage.

So, 7 ticks of tantrum that are being partially absorbed by my divine sacrifice, estimating 15k absorption per tick, means 105k total absorption. Raid buffed in the gear set I was using I had maybe 42k hp, so the 150% cap would be at 63k.

Looking later through the log to the second tantrum, which a holy paladin (~22k hp) used sacrifice on:

2009-04-30 19:46:22.609 XT-002 Deconstructor's Tympanic Tantrum hit Firefightern for 2173 damage.
2009-04-30 19:46:24.953 Kareha gains Kareha's Divine Sacrifice.
2009-04-30 19:46:25.031 Kareha casts Divine Sacrifice.
2009-04-30 19:46:25.046 Firefightern gains Kareha's Divine Sacrifice.

2009-04-30 19:46:29.468 XT-002 Deconstructor's Tympanic Tantrum hit Firefightern for 1303 damage. <- last damaging tick of tantrum

2009-04-30 19:46:35.015 Firefightern's Divine Sacrifice ( Kareha's buffer ) is removed.

So again, her divine sacrifice seems to run its full course with no concerns for a cap.

Soul · 05/01/09, 3:59 AM

Originally Posted by Endoscient

When you offer up (or support) a new theory, a much better argument is to showcase logs exhibiting your expected behavior. Instead of stating it is true until someone disproves you. You also stated two possible ways Divine Sacrifice could behave, so how can you say they are well founded when you don't even agree with yourself on which way it works.

No, I said there were two general ways they could implement this: a pooled Power Word Shield that transferred damage to the Paladin or a Soul Link that had a limit. The preponderance of evidence is for a Soul Link type buff that has a limit (a running total) because the amount absorbed is always 40% in just about every log I've read. The amount absorbed before it ends is hard to calculate and there doesn't seem to be rhyme nor reason for when it ends except that I've never seen it end close to being below 150% of the caster's HP, bugs aside.

I did agree it was possible for Divine Sacrifice to absorb a little bit more then its Damage Cap because of simultaneous damage and lag. What your post was trying to explain is exactly how much more and under what circumstances. Which is much more difficult to determine from a combat log, because of inability to recreate raid circumstances (simultaneous damage) and difficulty to tell the reasoning for people not absorbing damage in a non controlled environment (a raid) from the combat log. For instance they might of went out of range, or what the exact hp of the Paladin was when DS was cast. Here is a WWS of some people absorbing damage from Divine Sacrifice and some people not which all occurred at the same time.

Well, the people who didn't get absorption from Divine Sacrifice (Coria, Scabb, Edeneye, Minnielock, Zepnip, Darigazz) weren't affected by it in the first place. Coria gains the buff later in the fight and none of the others have it.

Of the (twenty or so) sets of logs I've flipped through, the majority of the time, Divine Sacrifice lasts the whole 10 seconds, regardless of the damage taken. This speaks to some kind of implementation issue. For the ones that don't (and I go hunting for the exceptions, really), when Divine Sacrifice ends, it never ends in the middle of a bunch of people taking mass damage. It always ends after.

Dugarax · 05/01/09, 5:13 AM

Originally Posted by Junlex

I'll try to get a WWS parse uploaded as WMO filters and interprets the logs a bit too much for clarity (hiding absorbs and so on).

Last night's XT-002 kill here: WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish

WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish

As you can see, the Divine Sacrifice buff was up for the entire 10 second duration rather than falling off prematurely.

I bubbled before the tantrum hit, but had to wait for the GCD to cycle before getting Divine Sacrifice up, so the first tick has no absorption. For example:

So again, her divine sacrifice seems to run its full course with no concerns for a cap.

Interesting. So DS would act differently depending on the fight and circumstances. Here is a sample of our raw combat log from last night's Mimiron attempts and kill.

DIVINE SACRIFICE SAMPLE #1:
4/30 18:15:27.110  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
...
4/30 18:15:34.535  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF


DIVINE SACRIFICE SAMPLE #2:
4/30 19:15:06.036  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
...
4/30 19:15:09.751  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF


DIVINE SACRIFICE SAMPLE #3:
4/30 19:44:11.338  SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
...
4/30 19:44:12.211  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.211  DAMAGE_SPLIT,0x05000000003A155D,"Voodootottem",0x512,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,0,0,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
4/30 19:44:12.211  DAMAGE_SPLIT,0x050000000229ECED,"Orchunter",0x512,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,0,0,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
4/30 19:44:12.211  DAMAGE_SPLIT,0x05000000003BEE17,"Yuuku",0x514,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,0,0,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
4/30 19:44:12.211  DAMAGE_SPLIT,0x0500000002259FC1,"Bodycount",0x514,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,0,0,4,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
4/30 19:44:12.211  DAMAGE_SPLIT,0x0500000002338C1B,"Onoz",0x514,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,0,0,68,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
...
4/30 19:44:12.282  DAMAGE_SPLIT,0x05000000003D4FAD,"Ginosuke",0x514,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,0,0,68,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
...
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x0500000002338C1B,"Onoz",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x050000000285F346,"Kmaanz",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x05000000003D4FAD,"Ginosuke",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x05000000027899B8,"Goinpostal",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x05000000003BEE17,"Yuuku",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0xF1404C6B1900007B,"Haathun",0x1114,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x050000000224BE4F,"Frynub",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x05000000025631E7,"Sylphyn",0x512,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x0500000000A5B9B3,"Bedar",0x512,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x05000000021DC6D4,"Evirx",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x050000000096953F,"Ihatedwarves",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x05000000010EB526,"Hybridzero",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x050000000247C4E6,"Aquanda",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x0500000001C82345,"Thevirus",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x0500000002259FC1,"Bodycount",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x05000000003D4065,"Lexian",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x05000000003A155D,"Voodootottem",0x512,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x050000000229ECED,"Orchunter",0x512,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x05000000003D3EC3,"Yumohgo",0x511,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x05000000025A786B,"Dörk",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0xF140653AF300006C,"Dirtbender",0x1114,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x050000000167A3B6,"Bootts",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x05000000003BB863,"Tsukage",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0xF140368F2600007C,"Thoothun",0x1114,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x050000000234F024,"Jaepointkin",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x05000000003C4B7E,"Jaxus",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF
4/30 19:44:12.570  SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x05000000007F9BA7,"Kalyelante",0x514,0x05000000003A21F7,"Deadguy",0x514,64205,"Divine Sacrifice",0x1,BUFF

As you can see, the first time Divine Sacrifice dropped after 7 seconds, 3 seconds the second time and the last time it didn't even take a second. However, the damage kept being transfered even after Divine Sacrifice dropped from me on that last time, which is probably because the other players' buff dropped a little after mine. Additionally, some damage was transferred to me at the exact moment Divine Sacrifice dropped from me (19:44:12.211), and some was transfered after (19:44:12.282).

The Divine Sacrifice dropped from me at 19:44:12.211 and dropped from the raid at 19:44:12.570.

burghy · 05/01/09, 1:54 PM

It's the same as with Hand of Sacrifice, performs the check if the buff is active after the damage is done.
You can absorb much more than you should if all the damage comes "at the same time".

5/1 01:24:22.026  SWING_DAMAGE,0xF13000808A0498C1,"Freya",0x20a48,0x02000000014E615E,"Mozzie",0x10512,95506,54082,1,0,2045,2104,nil,nil,nil
5/1 01:24:22.731  DAMAGE_SPLIT,0x02000000014E615E,"Mozzie",0x512,0x0200000001E118EA,"Calcute",0x511,6940,"Hand of Sacrifice",0x2,28651,10118,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil

28k hp HoS dmg, I have like 22-23k hp buffed, HoS is not improved.

Ariashley · 05/01/09, 4:55 PM

Originally Posted by mindsurfer

Hi, just out of curiosity, can you mention a boss encounter where you had time & need to approach the boss and melee for mana? Through my, not as extended as others on this forum, raiding experience most of encounters I had either no time or no need to do that.

Auriaya I'm pretty much in melee range the entire fight since we ALL stand on the tank (excepting about 3-5 people in the raid dealing with Feral Defenders). XT where we have everyone DPSing the heart, since we've lately been running very healer heavy (due to lack of DPSers as opposed to a desire to bring more healers). I usually do on Council also. 90% of the time I'm healing the tank (also a paladin) on umm the middle guy (names are not my forte) and standing in melee range for Phase 1 means I can heal him myself, keep beacon on me, and have pretty much full mana going into Phase 2 where most of the damage happens. For Auriaya and XT, it's a very nice side-benefit that generally means I don't need DP during the fight - though I usually pop DP right before DPS on the heart anyway since consecrating little robot scrapbot dudes to help out consumes more mana than I'd like it to.

In Naxx, it was Thaddius and Gluth. These weren't needs to get mana back - but it was just how we did boss positioning anyway.

It's not like you're running around purposely moving to get in position to hit the boss so you can get mana back - but it's a slick side benefit. If I can heal and not get destroyed in melee range of the boss (i.e., the boss doesn't do anything nasty to melee), then I don't see any reason not to stand there and get random bits of mana on the off chance I stop casting for a moment.

Malleus · 05/02/09, 8:32 PM

Originally Posted by Biche2

Won't it be a better choice to use:
[Elixir of Mighty Thoughts]
and
[Guru's Elixir]

You will have the same amount of intel, be as more some sta and other stats...

The only loss will be that not "even after dying"

Even if two Elixirs work better than a Flask, it's still worth listing the Flask in the OP because they last through death. A hardcore guild working on a tough hard mode five nights a week could easily get through 150 elixirs per raider in one reset. The value of using ten Flasks across the same period cannot be ignored.

(You also get a fraction less Int with the two elixirs, though of course this is offset by a small increase in SP, mana regen and health.)

Sparty · 05/03/09, 1:26 AM

Originally Posted by Malleus

Even if two Elixirs work better than a Flask, it's still worth listing the Flask in the OP because they last through death. A hardcore guild working on a tough hard mode five nights a week could easily get through 150 elixirs per raider in one reset. The value of using ten Flasks across the same period cannot be ignored.

(You also get a fraction less Int with the two elixirs, though of course this is offset by a small increase in SP, mana regen and health.)

Nobody said its not worth listing the flask in the original post. These two elixirs are better than Flask of Distilled Wisdom in almost every situation. And speaking from experience, you do go through many elixirs a week, but that is what separates the raiders from everyone else.

Terlig · 05/04/09, 12:40 PM

I made some calculations basing on wws done a week ago. I copied fragment from XT-002 fight, where i used Divine Sacrifice with Divine Shield.

Calculations:
Divine Sacrifice

And the link to wws is:
Wow Web Stats

I removed from absorbtion list everything what absorbed more than 40% (like priests PW:S). I also removed other unnecessary informations and veified, that no other pally cast DS at the same time. I don't know if Blizzard changed something last days, but here my Sacrifice absorbed around 91k damage. I am holy, raid buffed at around 23k HP.

gcbirzan · 05/04/09, 8:08 PM

The absorption was discussed thoroughly on the Retribution thread. Here's one post of mine which shows it wearing off as expected, with divine shield up: 3.1 Retribution Paladin Thread . Anecdotal evidence (i.e. it looks like it does) does point me to thinking that if there's a lot of damage happening at once/in a short interval to all the raid, you might get more absorption. (The buff takes a while to fade, that kind of stuff)

Avarraela · 05/04/09, 8:18 PM

I'm looking for some information on speccing. Now that the bug with imp BoW stacking w/ mana spring totem is fixed, I'm trying to decide if I should take my points out of that. I have never been a fan of speccing into something that only benefits me some of the time. Most of the time when I'm raiding, I'm raiding with a shaman anyway so imp BoW is going to waste and is only a "some of the time" benefit. I'd like to have a spec that is as most well rounded as possible to benefit me everywhere. I hate wasting talents on things that just make things easier when there may be a better talent to benefit me everywhere. Any suggestions?

Edit: On a more thorough look at the talent tree, there doesn't seem to be any other alternative that's not equally situational. Any thoughts on which would be the maximum benefit for us- a "some of the time" imp BoW, Blessed Hands (more for the increase in effectiveness than the mana reduction), Aura Mastery and 1 other point somewhere? The rest are pvp talents and have already proven not necessary.

Aditu · 05/04/09, 9:10 PM

I personally wouldn't want to rely on shaman totems vs a thirty minute buff and there's really nothing stellar in the holy tree you could take in its place anyway.

Avarraela · 05/04/09, 9:23 PM

I'm thinking about one point in aura mastery and one point in blessed hands. It seems like the utility of BoW is supbar to Kings anyway? For myself, I'm gaining 10% of my int with Kings as well as the rest of my stats which seems better than the MP5 benefit Wisdom provides. In terms of utility to my raid, shouldn't they be able to function to their best ability without my buff anyway? If we have a shaman they get the MP5 buff anyway, and if we don't are they relying on MP5 enough for it to matter?

• frmorrison · 05/05/09, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by Avarraela

If we have a shaman they get the MP5 buff anyway, and if we don't are they relying on MP5 enough for it to matter?

I guess if you run 5/10 mans as the single Pally, then imp BoW isn't that good. However, BoW is better because of the long duration + you don't have to be 40 yards from the totem.

Also, the Shaman can heal or dps more if they don't have to worry about the water totem.

Avarraela · 05/05/09, 1:01 AM

I only have a shaman up to level 60-something so I can't say for sure, but wouldn't they have totem upkeep worked into their rotation anyway? I've come to realize that the decision isn't to be made for or against BoW based solely upon a shaman's presence or not anymore. I think it's more of a question of comprehensive benefit at this point. Is kings better? Is giving our DPS imp BoW going to make or break the game? Shouldn't their mana pools be significant enough to have kings be more beneficial as well?