The Holy Paladin Guide for 3.1 - Page 15

Endoscient · 05/06/09, 4:46 PM

Originally Posted by Sparty

Let me rephrase, its not a perfect universal model for every boss encounter. It needs to be adjusted for each encounter, in the same way that no formula or theorycrafting can be applied to every encounter.

I don't think anyone ever said otherwise. Rawr models specific fights as accurately as it can, its up to to user to extrapolate the results.

What I don't get is your argument that you should use hand calculations for each fight instead. That is just doing what Rawr does (model a fight), but not nearly as accurately. What you should do instead is model multiple different fights in Rawr and see how the results change.

Since it was mentioned in the previous post, for those interested mana reduction effects stack in the following way.

(BaseCost * DivineIllumination - FlatCostReduction) * (1 - GlyphOfSealOfWisdom - 4PT7)

BaseCost - The initial cost of the spell.
DivineIllumination - 0.5 if Divine Illumination is active, 1 otherwise.
FlatCostReduction - Effects like [Libram of Renewal] stacked additively.
GlyphOfSealOfWisdom - .05 if you have it, 0 otherwise.
4PT7 - .05 if you have it, 0 otherwise.

Tzeni · 05/06/09, 5:13 PM

Endo, I think there has been sufficient evidence presented to debunk this statement in your OP, and it should probably be changed to reflect it:

The ICD on the proc is shared between all SS's on the target, so it doesn't stack between multiple Paladins.

Endoscient · 05/06/09, 6:59 PM

Originally Posted by Tzeni

Endo, I think there has been sufficient evidence presented to debunk this statement in your OP, and it should probably be changed to reflect it:

I have been meaning to do my own personal controlled testing to find out exactly how it works. But I have been busy with RL stuff and haven't had the time to. Unless if I missed the post all I saw was proof of ways it didn't work, and no conclusive proof on how it did work.

How I plan to test it is to have three paladins go to a FFA Arena (like the one in Nagrand). Have two of them naked, grouped with each other, and have both of them keeping up SS on one of them. Then have the third Paladin consecrate, and observe what happens. This has a very nice property of knowing exactly how much damage should be taken, so it should be fairly easy to determine how it works.

Feya · 05/06/09, 11:36 PM

Your right Endo, in saying that we don't know how SS functions exactly. Yet it doesn't take much effort to discover the OP's post is incorrect. Just watch two shields on a tank during one of your raids, they fall off as you'd expect a shield to fall off (independently and when damage is taken). Thats enough evidence for me to remove the statement anyways

No comments on stacking Beacon on the same target either? It use to be only one paladins Beacon could be on a player at one time. It seems to allow multiples now. Not sure when this showed up, but I remember clearly testing trying to stack them when the talent was originally released.

burghy · 05/07/09, 3:57 AM

Tried last night and my beacon didn't work at all when it was 2nd on the target.

gcbirzan · 05/07/09, 8:13 AM

Did some testing today.

Only my SS:

5/7 14:18:11.589 RANGE_DAMAGE,0x0380000000290E4F,"Tzep",0x10548,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant",0x511,75 ,"Auto Shot",0x1,879,0,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
5/7 14:18:11.964 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant",0x511,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant", 0x511,58597,"Sacred Shield",0x2,BUFF
5/7 14:18:12.542 SPELL_PERIODIC_MISSED,0x0380000000290E4F,"Tzep",0x10548,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant" ,0x511,49001,"Serpent Sting",0x8,ABSORB,620
5/7 14:18:13.542 RANGE_MISSED,0x0380000000290E4F,"Tzep",0x10548,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant",0x511,75 ,"Auto Shot",0x1,ABSORB,692
5/7 14:18:14.980 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x0380000000290E4F,"Tzep",0x10548,0x0380000000290E4F,"Tzep",0x1054 8,6150,"Quick Shots",0x1,BUFF
5/7 14:18:15.449 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant",0x511,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant", 0x511,58597,"Sacred Shield",0x2,BUFF
5/7 14:18:15.480 RANGE_DAMAGE,0x0380000000290E4F,"Tzep",0x10548,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant",0x511,75 ,"Auto Shot",0x1,220,0,1,0,0,707,nil,nil,nil

Absorbed: 620 + 692 + 707 = 2019

5/7 14:17:55.761 SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x0380000000290E4F,"Tzep",0x10548,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant" ,0x511,49001,"Serpent Sting",0x8,635,0,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
5/7 14:17:55.902 SPELL_CAST_SUCCESS,0x03800000008AC678,"Alighieri",0x512,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant" ,0x511,53601,"Sacred Shield",0x2
5/7 14:17:55.902 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant",0x511,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant", 0x511,58597,"Sacred Shield",0x2,BUFF
5/7 14:17:55.917 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x03800000008AC678,"Alighieri",0x512,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant" ,0x511,53601,"Sacred Shield",0x2,BUFF
5/7 14:17:56.621 RANGE_MISSED,0x0380000000290E4F,"Tzep",0x10548,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant",0x511,75 ,"Auto Shot",0x1,ABSORB,1631
5/7 14:17:57.105 SPELL_ENERGIZE,0x0380000000290E4F,"Tzep",0x10548,0xF14061272A001256,"Swashington",0x1 148,34952,"Go for the Throat",0x1,25,2
5/7 14:17:58.730 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant",0x511,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant", 0x511,58597,"Sacred Shield",0x2,BUFF
5/7 14:17:58.761 SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x0380000000290E4F,"Tzep",0x10548,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant" ,0x511,49001,"Serpent Sting",0x8,247,0,8,0,0,388,nil,nil,nil

Absorbed: 1631 + 388 = 2019
(The buff you're looking for is 58597)

My spell power is 2021. 500+2021*.75 = 2015.75

Not a huge sample, but still. Now, it gets trickier here, with two SSs:

5/7 14:17:34.339 SPELL_PERIODIC_MISSED,0x0380000000290E4F,"Tzep",0x10548,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant" ,0x511,49001,"Serpent Sting",0x8,ABSORB,611
5/7 14:17:34.636 SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant",0x511,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant", 0x511,58597,"Sacred Shield",0x2,BUFF
5/7 14:17:34.636 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x03800000008AC678,"Alighieri",0x512,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant" ,0x511,58597,"Sacred Shield",0x2,BUFF
5/7 14:17:36.246 RANGE_MISSED,0x0380000000290E4F,"Tzep",0x10548,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant",0x511,75 ,"Auto Shot",0x1,ABSORB,797
5/7 14:17:37.339 SPELL_PERIODIC_MISSED,0x0380000000290E4F,"Tzep",0x10548,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant" ,0x511,49001,"Serpent Sting",0x8,ABSORB,611
5/7 14:17:38.480 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x03800000008AC678,"Alighieri",0x512,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant" ,0x511,58597,"Sacred Shield",0x2,BUFF
5/7 14:17:38.496 SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant",0x511,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant", 0x511,58597,"Sacred Shield",0x2,BUFF
5/7 14:17:38.527 RANGE_DAMAGE,0x0380000000290E4F,"Tzep",0x10548,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant",0x511,75 ,"Auto Shot",0x1,392,0,1,0,0,358,nil,nil,nil
5/7 14:17:40.261 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant",0x511,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant", 0x511,58597,"Sacred Shield",0x2,BUFF
5/7 14:17:40.371 SPELL_PERIODIC_DAMAGE,0x0380000000290E4F,"Tzep",0x10548,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant" ,0x511,49001,"Serpent Sting",0x8,611,0,8,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil

The first shield absorbs 797+611+358 = 1766. Now, aligheri's shield gets removed, mine gets 'refreshed'. It absorbs no damage, and falls off six seconds after it was initially applied.

1766 is (1293*.75 + 500) * 1.2 (for divine guardian).

5/7 14:17:40.761 RANGE_DAMAGE,0x0380000000290E4F,"Tzep",0x10548,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant",0x511,75 ,"Auto Shot",0x1,837,0,1,0,0,0,nil,nil,nil
5/7 14:17:41.074 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant",0x511,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant", 0x511,58597,"Sacred Shield",0x2,BUFF
5/7 14:17:41.480 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x03800000008AC678,"Alighieri",0x512,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant" ,0x511,58597,"Sacred Shield",0x2,BUFF
5/7 14:17:43.152 RANGE_MISSED,0x0380000000290E4F,"Tzep",0x10548,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant",0x511,75 ,"Auto Shot",0x1,ABSORB,863
5/7 14:17:43.730 SPELL_PERIODIC_MISSED,0x0380000000290E4F,"Tzep",0x10548,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant" ,0x511,49001,"Serpent Sting",0x8,ABSORB,635
5/7 14:17:45.261 SPELL_AURA_REMOVED,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant",0x511,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant", 0x511,58597,"Sacred Shield",0x2,BUFF
5/7 14:17:45.261 SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x03800000008AC678,"Alighieri",0x512,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant" ,0x511,58597,"Sacred Shield",0x2,BUFF
5/7 14:17:45.324 RANGE_DAMAGE,0x0380000000290E4F,"Tzep",0x10548,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant",0x511,75 ,"Auto Shot",0x1,1165,0,1,0,0,521,1,nil,nil
5/7 14:17:46.730 SPELL_PERIODIC_MISSED,0x0380000000290E4F,"Tzep",0x10548,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant" ,0x511,49001,"Serpent Sting",0x8,ABSORB,635
5/7 14:17:47.574 RANGE_MISSED,0x0380000000290E4F,"Tzep",0x10548,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant",0x511,75 ,"Auto Shot",0x1,ABSORB,855
5/7 14:17:47.574 SPELL_AURA_APPLIED,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant",0x511,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant", 0x511,58597,"Sacred Shield",0x2,BUFF
5/7 14:17:47.574 SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x03800000008AC678,"Alighieri",0x512,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant" ,0x511,58597,"Sacred Shield",0x2,BUFF
5/7 14:17:47.886 SPELL_AURA_REFRESH,0x03800000008AC678,"Alighieri",0x512,0x038000000250A13A,"Ungulant" ,0x511,58597,"Sacred Shield",0x2,BUFF

Absorbed: 863 + 635 + 521 (2019) by the first (mine), 855+635 by the second, then it got refreshed.

So, it seems that even though two shields cannot absorb the same damage, they do stack in that if one gets removed, the second still absorbs _AND_ gets refreshed 6 seconds after proccing (i.e. no shared CD. Or, rather, shared CD, but triggers both shields). I have no idea which order the shields are used in, one attempt it was mine first, the other it was the ret paladin's.

Roknroll · 05/07/09, 11:50 AM

Edit:
Looks like holy 2 piece T8 is fixed. no need to point out the old problem.

Avarraela · 05/07/09, 12:17 PM

In regard to Beacon stacking, I did some testing this morning. Myself and another holy paladin went to the Nagrand arena with a mage. We beat each other up until about 25% and grouped up outside. We each beacon'd the mage and healed each other. I placed my beacon first and then he beacon'd second. They appeared to stack. When he healed me, the beacon did not proc. When I healed him, it did, meaning whichever paladin places beacon first, get's it.

ansky5o · 05/07/09, 5:18 PM

After a few weeks in Ulduar I have come to the understanding that using holy light in almost every encounter is quite useless. None but 2 pieces of pally Ulduar gear I've seen (including t8) have haste AND crit, aside from that it's either-or. My Ulduar belt, hands, wrists, legs, and chest all have crit+mp5 but no haste. Thus I have a ton more sp, crit, and int, but my haste has dropped to a minimum. Using holy light at any point in most fights, even precasting, is (1) either too late because someone else got there before me (2) heals at the most 2k because of the splash of whatever other heals are being thrown around. Having the glyph of holy light is also almost completely useless because most of the fights quire (1) minimum 10y range (2) moving around so much. My dbm pops up with /range for most fights and even though the glyph still does do a bit of healing on certain fights, it's not even close to being as useful as the flash of light or holy shock glyph. We have so much mana now and with all the mp5 gear and other regen sources I have not gone oom even with fights close to enrage timers. A good rotation I have found to be (this is with 45% crit unbuffed, t7 2piece bonus + holy shock glyph)

HS - FoL (instant) - FoL - HS - FoL (instant) - FoL - HS <------- it goes with the HS cd perfectly and even if it's not instant (thought it should be with the amount of crit in Ulduar gear with raid buffs), it just gives HS a bit more time to cd.

For how much we have to move on fights, run after/around tanks, I have found this to be perfect for healing on the go. No mana issues, my holy shocks go up to 9k and FoL go around 6k, which are more than substantial heals. When there is raid dmg such as on Ignis/Hodir/Aureya/Thorim/Kologan, and more, you can keep more people alive doing that rotation than holy light because (1) everyone is most likely more than 8y apart for the splash (2) holy light will take so long you will heal maybe one person during the entire AoE (3) the AoE healers will get to the person you are trying to holy light before you thus letting a person who needs an emergency heal die

tldr: holy light is useless in Ulduar /discuss

Roknroll · 05/07/09, 5:43 PM

you could be running with too many healers then. Holy Light is by far the best heal to be casting. I have a few upgrades from Ulduar (helm, legs, wrist), and am sitting at 535 haste from items. In raid, my Holy Lights cast just under 1.4 seconds. My FoL casts (i think) are about 1.05 seconds. That means Holy Light takes 33% longer to cast, but heals on average for 250% more. It also has a 'dumb' splash heal that will hit multiple people in range. Now factor in that Holy Light has a 6% higher crit rate.

The thing is, HL has only a slightly longer cast time than FoL, but it heals for a ton more. Geared and gemmed properly, paladins have the mana/regen to sustain casting only HL for an entire fight. So if you can handle casting it the entire time, there's no reason not to. If you are casting a 1.4 second heal, and someone is always beating you to it then (a) you are running with too many healers, (b) you have poor healing assignments, or (c) your reaction time and decision making is just too poor. Most HoTs tick every 3 seconds, and most other classes big heals are have a longer cast time than our Holy Lights.

I usually put myself on the main tank when healing boss fights. I never top the meters that way because I sit there and spam Holy Light on them, and they have my entire focus. I break off to raid heal occasionally when it's safe to do or when the fight mechanics call for it, but at least I know the tank isn't going to die. The rest of the healers are free to focus on the raid then, only putting HoTs or minimal heals on the tank.

Feya · 05/07/09, 5:48 PM

Considering you haven't progressed through the entirety of Ulduar (at least with the character you list as playing), I find it premature and completely unwarranted to make the statement you have made.

I use Holy Light with regularity. It is my #1 most used heal in almost every fight (except the General and Hodir fights). I spread in Holy Shocks as it comes up for the bonus to crit to holy light. I cannot see how your able to use flash of lights and holy shocks to keep a maintank up unless your allowing your other healers to carry a significant amount of the burden you should be carrying as a maintank healing class.

Even if we were to accept your premise, why is there no mention of Sacred Shield? Wouldn't the 50% crit bonus be worth including in your cycle? It just seems to me you are working from a half empty jar of theorycrafting.

• frmorrison · 05/07/09, 6:40 PM

Originally Posted by ansky5o

No mana issues, my holy shocks go up to 9k and FoL go around 6k, which are more than substantial heals. When there is raid dmg such as on Ignis/Hodir/Aureya/Thorim/Kologan, and more, you can keep more people alive doing that rotation than holy light because (1) everyone is most likely more than 8y apart for the splash (2) holy light will take so long you will heal maybe one person during the entire AoE (3) the AoE healers will get to the person you are trying to holy light before you thus letting a person who needs an emergency heal die

tldr: holy light is useless in Ulduar /discuss

So are you assigned to the AoE healing role? HL is the main tank healing spell, but you are right that it doesn't work that well for AoE healing, even with the glyph.

If you are AoE healing, I guess your rotation would be correct (except you should add SS on a tank). Also, using that role I would get the Divine Sacrifice build, since you can AoE absorb using that ability.

Since you are mostly casting Flash, it seems you need a new libram (the PvP Deadly libram affecting Flash is easier to get now) otherwise get [Venture Co. Libram of Mostly Holy Deeds].

Dugarax · 05/08/09, 3:31 AM

Originally Posted by Roknroll

I know it was mentioned briefly in an earlier post, but I thought I'd just give some screen shots and testing I did this morning for the 2-piece holy bonus. The bonus reads:
Currently it's bugged and the HoT it places costs an additional 19% of base mana. The hot is a spell called Holy Mending.

I took some screen shots last night. regen kind of screws the exact numbers up, but here's how my mana changed. I have 5/5 in benediction, but i did not have Seal of Wisdom up.

- started at full mana
- crit with holy shock
- refunded 474 mana from Illumniation
- mana lost after the refund = 1046

So, ignoring what I got back from Illumination, the Holy Shock cost 1,520 mana. A normal holy shock would have been 711 mana for me (no SoW, yes benediction). So that means the 2-piece bonus proc charged me 809 mana. That's not exactly 19% of base, but it could be that I got a tick of regen in there. My screen shots show the cast, 1 second after, and 2 seconds after. I gained 27 mana from normal regen in that 1 second. Adding that 27 to 809 and you get exactly 19% of base mana for the cost of the HoT.

before cast - http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...709_073344.jpg
1 second after cast - http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...709_073346.jpg
2 seconds after cast - http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c8...709_073347.jpg

Looks like the two piece bonus has been fixed.

We have corrected an issue with the two-piece set bonus for the Paladin set, Conqueror’s Aegis. Holy Mending no longer costs additional mana.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Recent In-Game Fixes - 5/5/09

Seems to be working fine on live server for me right now.

KYA1337 · 05/08/09, 4:04 AM

I do not agree that Flash heal should be your group-healing spell of choice!

In situations where people can actually die from AoE (Prenerf Tantrum, Frozen Blows+Icicles etc.), hitting somebody with a HL usually means they are safe, while a flash means that you - or some other healer - needs to heal them again.

Flash heal is good for:
...countering small amounts of damage - but priests, druids and shamans are better at that.
...sniping small heals - but if you need to do that you run with too many healers.
...conserving mana.

sno · 05/08/09, 4:05 AM

Originally Posted by ansky5o

After a few weeks in Ulduar I have come to the understanding that using holy light in almost every encounter is quite useless. None but 2 pieces of pally Ulduar gear I've seen (including t8) have haste AND crit, aside from that it's either-or. My Ulduar belt, hands, wrists, legs, and chest all have crit+mp5 but no haste. Thus I have a ton more sp, crit, and int, but my haste has dropped to a minimum. Using holy light at any point in most fights, even precasting, is (1) either too late because someone else got there before me (2) heals at the most 2k because of the splash of whatever other heals are being thrown around. Having the glyph of holy light is also almost completely useless because most of the fights quire (1) minimum 10y range (2) moving around so much. My dbm pops up with /range for most fights and even though the glyph still does do a bit of healing on certain fights, it's not even close to being as useful as the flash of light or holy shock glyph. We have so much mana now and with all the mp5 gear and other regen sources I have not gone oom even with fights close to enrage timers. A good rotation I have found to be (this is with 45% crit unbuffed, t7 2piece bonus + holy shock glyph)

HS - FoL (instant) - FoL - HS - FoL (instant) - FoL - HS <------- it goes with the HS cd perfectly and even if it's not instant (thought it should be with the amount of crit in Ulduar gear with raid buffs), it just gives HS a bit more time to cd.

For how much we have to move on fights, run after/around tanks, I have found this to be perfect for healing on the go. No mana issues, my holy shocks go up to 9k and FoL go around 6k, which are more than substantial heals. When there is raid dmg such as on Ignis/Hodir/Aureya/Thorim/Kologan, and more, you can keep more people alive doing that rotation than holy light because (1) everyone is most likely more than 8y apart for the splash (2) holy light will take so long you will heal maybe one person during the entire AoE (3) the AoE healers will get to the person you are trying to holy light before you thus letting a person who needs an emergency heal die

tldr: holy light is useless in Ulduar /discuss

Why are you healing the raid? Does your guild have mainly paladins as healers and can't bring more priests/druids and even shamans that can heal the raid far better than we ever can?
Or does your guild just have suboptimal healing assignements?

And if that is your way of playing why are you gemming for INT? Going for spellpower should be the aim if you are to mainly use FoL and shock since you pretty much won't be able to go out of mana that way, and btw 19 SP in a red socket and a 16 INT in a yellow gives more than two 9 SP 8 INT gems.

Or are you just trying to score on the healing meters and snipe heals of other healers?
Our greatest strength is the ability to dish out a serious amount of healing per second on one and sometimes two targets for an extended period of time, not to use our low througput heals to cross heal the raid.