Feya

I was too, a nerf like that, to a spell whose mechanics are so mysterious even still. I would of expected at least a glyph to appear. I mean we saw a significant buff to it via tier 8 but it seems a poor substitute to actually increasing the absorb amount. I'm progressing on a hard mode Iron Council, and the tank getting hit for 23-33k...well a 2.5k shield is barely worth mentioning really.

 

• Phara

I think the most reasonable way to nerf illumination (if it's going to be nerfed at all), is probably to make the illumination return 60% of the actual cost instead of the current situation where all the mana cost reductions (4p t7, libram and glyph) are making the spell a bit more efficient than Blizzard devs intends it to be. However, that might impact the holy paladin representantion in raids by a lot, and it's not exactly as if they are over-represented there.

 

beromar

Going back to the Sacred Shield prot spec for a moment.

While the amount that Sacred Shield absorbs in total is pretty impressive for 1 GCD, you must also consider the worth of the individual shields, and that GCD.

For instance, Phase 3 Iron Council Hard Mode or Hard Mode Thorim. Those 2 fights specifically rely on constant tank swapping, combined with extremely hard melee swings (especially on the 3rd Steelbreaker tank and as Thorim's stacks go up). Would you then, use one of your precious GCDs re-applying a Sacred Shield that will absorb ~2.4-3k damage when even 1 GCD not healing can possibly result in your tank's death?

In situations like this, should you choose to re-apply you are basically crossing your fingers hoping that the tank dodges the next attack. The only situations where I would bother spending that global on SS would be during things like Flash Freeze on Hodir or during the 10 second kite on Vezax.

Looking towards the future, and something I was considering today for a cool new SS implementation would be to also give us a Swiftmend-like ability where we can "choose" to consume the total remaining absorption amount, though it might also require a nerf to the SS absorb equation. It would be very nice for fights with predictable big hits like Sarth breath or Fusion Punch etc. Of course, as with Swiftmend it would require a decent cooldown: 1-2 minutes seems reasonable.

Edit: Maybe it could even replace the current Divine Guardian talent (admittedly a 60 second SS all absorbed at once would be a bit op, so it would either have to replace that talent or put a limit on how many "shield procs" can be used through the swiftmend).

 

Sasan

So, I've been running around with an experimental holy/prot spec for a while now, in naxx, and some of ulduar.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Link to build.


Gone with Touched by the light from Protection tree which increases crits from healing by 30%, and the other top tier talent which has a 100% chance of refreshing your DP duration if you choose to take a swing at someone. Normally you would just go with seal of wisdom and hit someone if you need mana, but since its a FoL centered build, Seal of Light is a much more natural choice, as flash of light is a very cheap spell in itself.

Tested out a bit, and fully raid buffed with around 2700 spellpower, I could crit up to 10k with flash of light. Normal hits would be around 4.7-5k. But the thing is, i've also chosen the divine guardian talent, which increases SS duration to 60 sec, and amount absorbed by 20%. So basically you'll have almost 100% uptime on SS while healing tank, which means you get 50% crit added to your flash of light.. making it crit for 10k for just a ridiculously low amount of mana. At the moment, I'm dumping the 51/0/20 build for this one until I can get my hands on some ulduar gear.

Thoughts?

 

vorda

1) Why bother using 10k flashes when they could have been 12-18k non crit holy lights?
2) The talent that keeps DP up is extremely useless. If you're going oom with popping DP on every cooldown, you're doing something wrong. Not to mention that when you can melee hit something, you should have SoW up for insane mana gains.

26 points in holy.. you're missing on:
- 4% crit
- 15% haste (edit: stupid me.)
- HS
- Light's grace (which is why you don't use HL I suppose)
- DI
- less important these days: infusion and beacon.

Do you really think critting your flashes a bit harder (while your HL would have the same cast time as your flash does now if you went a normal holy build) is worth the trade off?

 

Saladin

15% haste, but this build and its bastard cousin the Sheathadin have been discussed at least three times over the course of this and the previous Holy Paladin thread.

It has already been determined that both are technically viable in very precise circumstances (in the case of deep prot, Vezax), but are outclassed by traditional holy on every high-mobility/high-throughput fight in Ulduar.

Basically, of all the counterpoints you listed, Holy Shock is the worst loss. 4% crit and 15% haste can at least be partially offset by gear choices, while Holy Light and all talents that affect this are not the focus of this "super efficient" build.

In short, you'll heal marginally better on 1 out of the 14 fights in Ulduar, but you'll have your work cut out for you trying to even stay equal with holy throughout the other 13. Good luck to anyone trying to heal Hodir without Holy Shock.

 

Pirjo

Your FoL spam is: 1.5 sec cast (talents only) yielding 5k average HPS (5k normal, 50% crit w/ gear/raid buff haste ignored)
My HL spam is: 1.74 sec cast (talents only) yielding 8.62k average HPS (12k normal, 50% crit w/ gear/raid buff haste ignored - GoHL ignored)

The other real kicker (terrible HPS aside)... when people say the FoL/SS synergy will make FoL viable in a raid:
Your spec punishes you for the tank having a bad avoidance streak. When the tank gets unlucky, gets hit 2-4 times in a row, you will do lower HPS than any other time in the encounter. What are you going to do then... line up a 2.5 sec cast HL? Yeah, that'll totally land in time.

Odd subspecs are fine on easy content though, because other healers can do your job for you.

 

Malleus

You're ignoring the 50% bonus crit from the Sacred Shield proc too. A bit of napkin math suggests that using your figures, Flash will overtake HL in HPS when the SS proc has more than 47% uptime.

 

elduce

nvm this

 

Saladin

You'll need a slightly higher uptime than that. Holy Light gets 6% crit baked into it through talents that Flash of Light doesn't get. So assuming a crit rate of 50% on all holy spells, Holy Light's actual crit rate would be 56%.

The thing I'm trying to figure out now is just where we're going to go from here gear-wise. It's hard to say with the possibility of multi-faceted nerfs looming on the horizon, but figuring out the priority of gear to come is a sticky business.


Intellect
------------
The A-stat, the paladin eqivalent of MP5 and Spirit. Likely to be nerfed indirectly through a replenishment nerf. Even if it's not, Blizzard hasn't given us much chance to improve our intellect values from T7. Upgrading to full "bis" Ulduar gear nets you an Intellect increase of about 100-200. Otherwise known as a couple of raid buffs. Whether or not Icecrown improves upon this number to any degree of magnitude probably depends on if Blizzard goes through with the Replenishment nerf or not.

If it remains unnerfed, we're unlikely to see much higher Intellect values than we currently have, because the developers aren't fans of scaling mana regen.

If it does get nerfed, developers are likely to be more generous with the Int value they place on gear, but of course, by then we'll have less incentive to go for it.


Crit
------------
Second highest priority stat to a holy paladin, also on the edge of a nerf. Again, you can apply all the comments surrounding intellect to this stat. If Illumination gets nerfed, we'll probably see a decent amount of crit on upgrades to make up for it, although we'll find it less desirable than the golden child that is MP5. If Illumination doesn't get nerfed, we're probably not going to see crit values rise far above the 50-ish percent we're seeing now, since it's obviously such a powerful source of regen.


Haste
------------
We've been capable of capping Haste since T7. What direction to we go now? The more haste we collect on gear, the less valuable Judgements of the Pure becomes. Will we begin to drop ranks of JotP as gear replaces our haste needs? If we do, what talents will we substitute in for it, since there's nothing else remotely desirable in the holy tree?


Spellpower
------------
The only stat guaranteed to rise with any consistency as we upgrade to T9. Sacred Shield is notoriously missing from our glyph and libram options; we're likely to see both a Sacred Shield glyph and libram crop up amongst the increases in spellpower. Maybe the combination of talents, tier bonuses, higher spellpower levels, and matching gear/glyphs will make Sacred Shield worth serious consideration. Probably not.

Ironically, since Holy Light scales better than FoL with spellpower, T9 content is likely to further increase the gap between traditional Holy Light spammers and the Prot/Ret FoL healing builds attempting to sidestep the various pitfalls of the Holy tree. While these builds may be found viable currently under extreme circumstances, I'd expect to see any and all viability evaporate in T9 content.


MP5
------------
I guess we're all watching to see where this is going. The only clues we have are that Blizzard's design intent is for Holy paladins to rely on some amount of MP5 in their healing role. Unfortunately, we don't know exactly how much that number's supposed to be. When Blizzard nerfs Illumiplenishment, will we discover that the MP5-slathered Ulduar items are just what we need to return to our current levels of efficiency? Or will it not be enough, instead sending us scrabbling for even more MP5 to be found in the citadel?




Something I'm very interested in seeing is how Blizzard handles gear progression now that they've adopted Hard Modes as a progression path.

It's logical that 10-man T7 < 10-man T8 < 10-man T9, while simultaneously 25-man T7 < 25-man T8 < 25-man T9. But where does the inclusion of hard modes factor in? Will the progression path be T8 < T8 Hard < T9 < T9 Hard? Or will it be (as I consider more logical) T8 < T8 Hard = T9 < T9 Hard?


Foretelling Blizzard's moves has always been pretty spotty, and they've made a lot of changes to their design philosophy this expansion that makes it even harder to predict. Still, where do you think the dice will land?

 

beromar

Could the illumination nerf be as simple as putting an ICD on it? Depending on the ICD it could be enough to force us into more mp5 gear.

Say it has an ICD of 10 seconds. Now let's assume you have 100% crit chance (yes very extreme and impossible but for illustration purposes), and a Holy Light cast time of 1.5 seconds. In 1 minute you will have cast 40 Holy Lights with only 7 Illumination procs, you will have spent a total of 38,725 mana, saving 5,355 mana. Taking away the ICD, you would have spent a total of 13,480 mana, saving 30,600 mana every minute (this is all assuming SoW Glyph, libram, and 4pct7).

Now to put it back in realistic terms. Assuming 50% holy light crit, with a cast time of 1.5 seconds, you will only get around 4-5 illumination procs in that same minute.

A change like this would completely change the way we look at crit. It wouldn't scale nearly as well with itself as it does now and we wouldn't be able to rely on it as a truly viable source of regen.

 

DiamondTear

Is it? Now, even after doing 25 man hard modes, I would rather take an item with haste/mp5 rather than crit/mp5 to use in combination with my haste/crit/sp gear if I can't get an item without mp5.

 

burghy

It's getting really annoying the hiatus between what the designers seem to theorycraft about and the end result of the encounters. All healers got pre ulduar were nerfs and the reason was to balance versus a calmer healing environment where you could choose how to spend mana, not be forced by the hps requirement to a constant spam.
Then ulduar comes and the result is on the opposite side.
And now GC is back again theorycrafting in the same ideal environment where you don't need to spam heals and hope the tank doesn't get gibed in the 1.4s between them.

 

Vashter

Does anyone ever thought of using HoP + DS for Hodir /mimiron such? or Divided protection + DS? I never test it though I was curious if anyone ever done it or heard about it.

 

TimWischmeier

It's quite a common practice, and got mentioned quite often throughout this thread. However, you would want to keep in mind, that Hand of Sacrifice and Divinie Sacrifice redirect the type of damage the target takes. So DSac + HoP on yourself on Hodir's Frozen Blows will kill you, because the damage redirected is frost damage and HoP only protects you from physical damage and effects.

So when using HoS/DSac + HoP/DS you should think beforehand about the type of damage that will be redirected. Most important types are:

- Tantrum on dekonstruktor is physical damage, so HoP yourself is enough.
- Auriaya-Adds do a bleed dot, HoP is sufficient
- Significant damage in Hodir encounter is frost (AE part and Tank part), so never sacrifice without DS. In 10man it might be viable to BoL yourself, HoS the tank and heal through while frozen blows.
- Thorim: you should not HoS + HoP, because there is a non-trivial amount of magical damage around, which can kill you. Besides, I never felt being able to spend 2 gcds in a row to help the tank withouth risking tank death (speaking of hardmode).
- Mimiron: Plasma Blast is fire damage, so don't rely on HoP on you. However, in 10man it is totally viable to beacon yourself, HoS the tank and heal through it. If you need CDs on your tank because of bad Laser Barrage + Nova-thing luck, neve go without DS.
- Vezax: Great encounter for rotating CDs on Tank. For hardmode however mind that the AE damage is magical (shadow). Make excessive use of AM, HoS, DSac.

 

Vashter

How good / bad is using DS + HoS? Did you just use that with NO bubble or with it? and Nice point about most of bosses I may need them. One thing, the one I highlight in bold means you Divided scarifice yourself THEN HoS with bubble or without? =X

1. Is it possible to heal though Plasma blast with HoS + DS with no bubble?

2. For Auriyay, so you say you could HoP yourself because of cat is Physical attacker and I worried if I do HoP + DS would dmg go though? due to cat is Physical dmg.

3. In Hodir, you say to HoS Tank and heal though it? Hell I have DS + Bubble (Not HoP) with Hodir Frozen blown when it works, I was just trying find out if HoP could be useful for most of bosses

I'm just trying find best possible to see if it possible to make happend to get it work you know.

 

Schonning

I generally never find myself in a situation where it is necessary to blow both those CD's(HoS and DS) at once (either because the tank has CD's available, or because another healer has one).

I use 2 macro's when I am specced 51/20; the first one casts DS, then Dsac, while spamming til raid that I am reducing raid dmg . The second one simply casts Divine Protection (the 50% reduction talent) + HoS. since max dmg from HoS = 100%, reduced by 50% that's not an issue.

EDIT:

The nice thing about binding HoS to Divine Protection, is that Divine Protection is off GCD, so you only have to press it once, "saving" you a GCD

 

TimWischmeier

I am not entirely sure, but I think they changed DS + HoS to not stack anymore. Don't quote me on that, either.

Discussion would be easier if you gave more attention to your spelling of spells:

DSac (Divine Sacrifice) = AE damage redirect to you
DS (Divine Shield) = protects yourself from all incoming damage and effects
HoS (Hand of Sacrifice) = single target damage redirect to you
HoP (Hand of Protection) = protects you from every incoming physical damage

I have to macros for sacrificing (you have to click them twice):

#showtooltip Hand of Sacrifice
/castsequence Hand of Sacrifice, [target=player] Hand of Protection


#showtooltip Divine Sacrifice
/castsequence Divine Sacrifie, Divine Protection


To answer your questions:
1. On 10man I can Beacon of Light myself, put HoS on the tank and heal through Plasma Blast nearly alone, with just the second healer assisting with one or two heals on the MT. You want to make sure to have Judgements of the Pure, Beacon of Light and Light's Grace up before the message of Plasma Blast shows. The moment the raid warning on Plasma Blast shows, cast HoS and start casting HL.

However 1 CD per Plasma Blast is enough (ie Shield Wall OR HoS), and we usually only get 2 Plasma Blast in P1. The most important thing is your timing on HL (cast before you see incoming damage, don't stop casting until Plasma Blast is over). Communicate with your tanks.

2. HoS and DSac will redirect physical damage to you, if the afflicted targets only take physical damage. The adds attacks are all physical (including dot), so there's nothing wrong with using HoP on yourself to protect you against the redirected damage. However you want to make sure not to DSac without DS when Sonic Scream (AE Shadow dmg ability by Auriaya) is going to kick in.

3. Use DSac + DS on Frozen blows. I did however not test if it is viable to Beacon yourself, HoS the tank and just spamheal the tank if your DSac + DS combo is on cooldown. You get not much use out of HoP on yourself in this fight because under Frozen Blows even the tank damage is mostly frost damage (and besides Frozen Blows the damage on the tank is not that high).


All of those experiences are on 10man though. In general, all those should apply to 25man aswell, besides of the Beacon yourself and HoS the tank trick, because it is very possible that the damage to the tank is too high.

 

Schonning

HOP is on GCD, Divine protection (the tank cd) is not. The GCD is the first reason I do not use it with HoS, the second one is that HoP is only physical dmg, Divine Protection is 50% ALL damage.

I will take critic on the DSac though I'll edit it in

 

Vashter

Well One time when I did 3D + Sarth, I put HoS on tank and bubble myself while I was watching the boss casting bars with his flame breath incoming + Verperson protal open, all of suddent the dmg didn't redirect to me, wasn't that suppose to happend if so, then my fault only way it is HoS the tank and heal myself with 1-2 healers on me without bubble? Just curious it something kinda example.

It was before Ulduar came out and we did kill 3d + sarth in 25 man

 

Malleus

EDIT: Misread Saladin's post.

 

DiamondTear

Divine Protection doesn't reduce HoS damage. I believe these things have been discussed earlier in the thread.

 

Saladin

Not sure that's a valid comparison. Haste/MP5 is a Throughput/Regen combo, whereas Crit/MP5 is a Regen/Regen combo.

To demonstrate that Crit is a regen stat somewhere above MP5 yet somewhere below Int, ask yourself if you would prefer a Haste/Crit item or a Haste/MP5 item.

 

Rackdaddy

In terms of regen alone, Rawr shows MP5 to be greater than crit.

 

Tifordin

MP5 also has a considerably more expensive item budget. +7MP5 on a blue-quality Northrend gem, vs +16Crit.