Endoscient

You need to divide mp5 by 2.5 and SP by 0.857 to get how much they are worth per item budget point.

 

maarek

if you are in high end raiding, then you dont really care for the budget. We try to take maximum, out of our class

 

vorda

You don't make any sense.

What they are trying to tell you is that in the "item budget" (based on the ilvl and quality of the item, blizzard gets a budget of which they can decide how much stats they can put on items), 7mp5 equals 16 crit.

 

Ranjurm

Using ilvl puts mp5 at 1.28 on that chart, below crit and far below the other options.

Also, it puts SP in a virtual tie with MP5 with a value of 1.20.

 

Rackdaddy

When comparing two items to each other, you do not need to divide the stats by their budget cost. All that matters is the absolute value to determine which is the best piece.

 

vorda

Yes, but since we're comparing stat values here (the chart you yourself posted) instead of actual items, your point is useless.

People are saying that crit is a much better regen stat than mp5, at which point you disagreed by saying that rawr showed mp5 as higher regen, at which point other people pointed at that you need to adjust that rawr chart on item budget to get correct values.
Noone is disagreeing certain items with mp5 may have more regen than certain items with crit, but on a stat to stat basis, mp5 is a wasted stat.

(and again, stuff that has been said dozens of times in the holy topics. Would be nice if we could stop getting the same argruments every few pages.)

 

maxi

Item budget only <really> matters when you are in a situation where you can't expect your ilvl to rise any higher in the forseeable future, and want to maximise your stat allocation.

Only people already dressed in ilvl226+ gear are likely to find themselves in this situation.

For everyone else - a good rule of thumb is, 1 m5s = 1,6 crit rating (of course, this may vary given the fight and gear specifics).

In the end of the day, however, i can't think of many situations where you are forced to explicitly pick between m5s and crit. Most of the times when i had to really sit down and think about my gear choices, the decision was between crit and haste.

 

Vagoo

Here are some trinkets suitable for inclusion in the original post:

[Pandora's Plea]
[Scale of Fates]
[Sif's Remembrance]
[Vanquished Clutches of Yogg-Saron]
[Eye of the Broodmother]
[Spark of Hope]
[Titan-Forged Rune of Audacity]
[Titan-Forged Rune of Cruelty]
[Meteorite Whetstone]

 

Saladin

Well, now that we're all done snickering about the prospect of Flash of Light making paladins overpowered, this provides some interesting insights into possible design intents in the future.

Honestly, it wouldn't take an enormous change to get us to start rotating in Flash of Light again. Flash worked great in 5-mans and starting 10-man Naxx, but the rampant scaling on Holy Light are what's really obliterated the spell. By the time you get even 1800 spellpower and 500 haste (which is really nothing), FoL becomes unworthy of its space on your action bars.

Currently, FoL has a 100% Spellpower coefficient and cannot be hasted past the haste cap of 676.

Holy Light, on the other hand, has a 166% Spellpower coefficient and suffers from no effective haste cap that's currently obtainable from gear.

Seems to me that the simple solution to fixing FoL is just to ramp up its scaling. Either give it a 110-120% coefficient, or give us a talent to reduce the GCD to .5-.75 seconds. I think we'd all be willing to put up with an increase in mana cost in exchange for either or both of these fixes.

 

Maylander

Which basically means increasing the HPS. HPS is the main issue here: When you're tank healing hard modes in Ulduar, FoL is not an option due to the very low HPS compared to HL. However, if you increase the HPS of Flash too much (either by increasing its speed or coefficiency), it would simply kill HL, or end up too powerful in Arenas. Increasing the mana cost to get more output would basically turn it into Lesser Heal Wave, which is certainly a more useful spell overall than Flash currently is (wasn't always the case), but Blizzard tends to dislike making spells too similar.

I really have no idea how they're going to solve this puzzle. To any tank healer in Ulduar, the case is fairly straight forward: HPS is king, without any concern whatsoever of the mana cost of the spell. Whatever spell lets you heal your tank the most, is the spell that will be used.

I suppose they could bring HL and FoL a bit closer together in terms of HPS, and then make it harder to sustain HL through longer boss fights, leading to a situation where the Paladins have to spam FoL most of the fight and HL during the heaviest parts (i.e conserve mana during the first 8 or so stacks on Thorim, and then switch to HL). That solution is a bit boring though; I'd love to see the two spells either working together, or in completely different areas.

What I'm trying to say is: As long as both spells are fairly similar in nature, whatever spell lets you reliably heal a tank taking heavy damage is the spell that will be used. Unless one of the two is changed, it will never be a choice to "cast a HoT or a direct heal" or "cast an aoe heal or a more powerful single target heal".

"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.
If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.
If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle." - Sun Tzu, Art of War

 

DiamondTear

I didn't realize you were ranking them on regen basis.

 

• frmorrison

An issue you may not be thinking about is Arenas, where Flash of Light is still a useful spell. However, Holy Pallies are not doing the best in Arena, so a boost in Flash may be good. However, that helps Ret as well (who may not need it).

Flash is useful for low damage times (P3 Mimiron and doing 5-mans) and after people get buffed you can top them off.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

aylen86

Hi everybody,

I'm a raiding retpaladin and a sidespec holy, mainly healing our 10-man hardmode attempts when a third healer is needed.

Next weekend we are planing to defeat Vezax hardmode. What I've learned so far reading some strats is that preparation is everything including the right holy paladin spec. All guides agree about the way a holy paladin should top the tank, namely with Flash of Light and Sacred Shield. Specing into Spiritual Attunement is also discussed to be a way to gain some mana, though I'm not sure how this should work, when avoiding damage is everything in this fight (probably in p2 when the animus dot kicks in).
I'm looking for some input from experienced holy paladins, especially from paladins who did this hardmode.

Furthermore I'm looking for some feedback concerning these two specs tailored for Vezax Hard:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (a spellpower through health spec for a better Sacred Shield, mana through SA)
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...0&version=9901 (more traditional healing spec with improved devotion aura and Blessing of Sanc)

 

Saladin

That's why a small boost to Flash's spellpower coefficient may be the best answer. Generally speaking, a PVP holy paladin's Intellect and Spellpower will both be lower than an equal iLevel PVE holy paladin, since PVP gear chews up so much itemization with stamina and resilience.

Say that Mr. Arenadin has 1800 spellpower while Mr. Raidadin has 2200 spellpower. A FoL coefficient increase of 10% would mean Arenadin gets 180 spellpower added to his Flash of Light, while Raidadin gets 220 spellpower added to his Flash of Light. A spellpower coefficient boost would benefit raiding paladins more than PVP paladins, although it still would benefit PVP paladins. This could possibly be offset by cutting the base heal for a small amount.

As opposed to the (highly unlikely) FoL GCD cut, which would benefit Raiding and PVPing paladins equally. Arguably even more beneficial to PVP paladins, since it makes FoL effectively uninterruptible.

 

Klutch

I'm interested in collecting some opinions on ideal spec's for 10 man Ulduar. I'm 4peices Valor with Uldy10/25 upgrades

Currently 51/0/20 - 2300 sp /225mp5 /44% crit / 26kmana raid buffed/Frost flask / points in +crit of HL and Holy Shock. SoW, HL and LoH Glyphs.

We're on keepers right now and I'm wondering if I'm missing out on not having a 51/5/15 OR 51/20/0 or some varient.

Imp SS and DivSac are very attractive, especially in a 10 man situation, where I'm finding rebuffing/reapplying can make or break a fight.

This thread briefly touched on some of these things but I could get a real answer for my situation.

HL spam just cant be used like it can on 25's so I'm finding myself using FoL a lot more. Mana usually isn't an issue but I do have to modify my habits in 10's or I will run out.

What I'm asking if for those of you who run 10's exclusively or regularly, what build is doing the most for you?

I'd love to hear some suggestions. Please refrain from hybrid builds, I find them inherently defective by design and they dont suit my style (despite it working for others).

Just to reiterate. I'm doing fine heal wise. Raid stays pretty much topped off and I'm typically #1 on the meter but I'm looking to see if I'm missing additional utility with a standard high crit build.

Thanks.

 

AlcapwnedYou

Klutch,

You can always Dual-Spec into a 51/20/0 build and play with both to see which one is more comfortable. I found that while DivSac / Imp SS is a nice utility buff, the pure mana efficiency I received from 51/0/20 just could not be touched. Using FoL is not a bad thing, it just pales in comparison to HL when it comes down to raw numbers and fight duration. So again, there is nothing wrong with using FoL to top off DPS in a 5/10 man, but it just cannot scale to incoming damage in comparison to HL.

Really, it is just about pacing when switching from 25 to 10 (or vice versa). I can be a lot more generous by dumping HLs in a 25-man when there are Replenishment effects going around. Just alter your playing style; not your talents.

The numbers, and experience, tell me that 51/0/20 is preferred, but there is nothing stopping you from having an alternate build. I found that I would be more mana starved with the Protection talents, and given that, I would rather cut down the cost of my spells within Retribution than buff them up with Protection.

 

Klutch

Yeah I fiddled with both. I have a hard time leaving that kinda of crit behind, especially after the regen nerf awhile back. Sometimes we dont always have a ret pally so I like the additional 5pts in prot for the 5% healing when doing stuff like judging light on targets, just not sure if its worth the -3% crit.... my gut tells me no.

I eventually see myself abandoning the lust for crit for more regen and sp as our tier set dictates, perhaps it will be worth it once I have the gear.

Thanks for the reply.

 

burghy

Only pve items with higher sp are the 239 hard modes.

 

Sven

I think you're right when you say that the two spells should work together. Ghostcrawler recently said that Ret DPS abilities are too unrelated and that holy pallies suffer the same problem – "You hit the button and damage happens ... To some extent, Holy paladins even have the same issues." I think it'd be great if FoL and HL played off of each-other, especially if this interplay would allow us to raid heal and not simply stick us deeper into the role of tank healer.

In my mind, I'd like a new 3-point talent in the retribution tree that takes the place of Crusade (which would be pushed down to a lower tier). Ideally, this talent would split the holy subspecs so that pallies can't get the best of both worlds – MT healers would generally take the prot subspec whereas raid healers would take the ret subspec. As for the talent itself, my idea is this: casting on a target Flash of Light would place an 8 second buff on them. When you cast Holy Light on a target with this buff, 10/20/30% of the amount healed on your target is also healed on these buffed targets, at triple the usual mana cost of Holy Light. Think of it as a mini-Beacon of Light, spread to multiple targets.

We need an ability to help us raid heal, because healers should not be relegated to one single healing role (just as tanks shouldn't be designated as add-tanks or boss-tanks based on their class). As it stands, pallies are Tank healers because we don't compare as well to Priests, Druids and Shammies for raid healing due to their smart, fire-and-forget and/or AoE heals.

Thoughts?

 

tiberion02

The 3% crit will always be more beneficial then 5% bonus healing. Just look at the overhealing you do during fights. Should be a pretty hefty number. All of that overhealing is making that 5% bonus heal generally useless. Picking up the 3% crit increases your mana returns and throughput. Additionally, the added utility from having Pursuit of Justice should not be overlooked. Dipping into the Protection tree is not worth it unless your willing to commit all 20 points needed to pick up DivSac/Imp SS, and I honestly see very little benefit to these outside of a few fights where DivSac is nice. Other then Vezax, I would not want to give up the 8% crit, PoJ and 15% cheaper instants for anything in prot.

So, yea just stick with 51/0/20. Other then the gimmick fight of General, I don't see any reason that a 10-man (or 25 for that matter) healer would want to drop all the great ret talents.

Borderlands: tiberion02, add me.

 

United10

What would be interesting is to have some sort of interlacing flash of light with holy light or other spells, similar to how holy shock works now. maybe even something similar to arcane blast. let flash of light put a stacking buff that increases the amount of healing done by your next holy spell. Or a stacking buff that is consumed by holy light and grants X percentage armor to the target. Another possibility would be allowing it to somehow increase the amount absorbed by sacred shield.
Just some thoughts on the predicament of FoL

 

superfula

You'll have to do better than a blanket statement like that. I'd rather have the 5% healing, as mana hasn't been a problem for me thus far.

This statement wreaks of contradiction. First you state that the 5% bonus heal (completely throughput) is generally useless because of overhealing, then you claim the 3% crit is good because it increases throughput. On top of that, I am curious how you can state the extra 5% healing would just add to overhealing but don't think the extra crit will. Finally, crit isn't a throughput stat and shouldn't be depended upon to be such. It's primary purpose is mana regen with a bit of throughput added in.

Enchant Boots - Boar's Speed is more than enough.

So you don't see the benefit to damage mitigation? Granted, Divine Sacrifice isn't something you'll be popping on every CD, but 35,000ish mitigation within a few seconds is hard to pass up. Not to mention the added mitigation from SS. 51/20/0 certainly isn't necessary for a guild's success, however you can't argue that it's as viable a build as 51/0/20. That'd be quite foolish given the immense amount of information to the contrary.

If you don't have mana problems, why not?

 

• Mex

Frmorrison is correct in pointing out the use of FoL in arena, where it's still quite a dominant and powerful spell. There are very few ways to make spells suitably powerful in PvE without making them borderline OP in PvP. Blizzard has thus far managed to do this (in 99% of cases) without resorting to separate rulesets, which is probably a much bigger feat than many people realise. I would be very surprised if the solution didn't follow their standard PvE / PvP differentiation philosophy, which seems to be to assume much higher levels of scaling and regen in PvE (due to buffs and 'pure' throughput stats, no resil), much higher levels of movement in PvP, the absence of agro and presence of a much wider range of abilities. This tends to lead to the inability to perform complex rotations and a much higher priority on fast / instant spells like fireblast or holyshock. A moonkin, for instance, will not gain anywhere near as much benefit in PvP from eclipse as in PvE, because they'll have to interrupt their casts for CC, shifting, movement, etc.

I think an eclipse-style functionality with FoL / HL, or even an arcane-blast style functionality as mentioned by United10 could be a viable way of tackling the problem. Something to make FoL a really really good spell, provided you're casting it alongside plenty of HLs and standing still, timing things well (something which, in PvP, will likely send you oom quickly as well as endanger you). Without the bogus levels of int+crit+mp5 regen, replenishment, full raid buffs, etc, a high-mana cost buff to FoL could be viable, as long as it allowed for FoL itself to be spammed as usual in PvP.

The other solution would just be to add another spell. This would have the advantage of making balancing slightly easier, since you could go ahead and make it horrible for PvP without removing the primary heal for arena holy pallies.

Honestly though, at the moment FoL is just a bad spell in PvE. It's not that it's useless, it's just that using it is a product of coercion rather than desire. You don't cast it because it suits the situation better than HL, you cast it because you don't have enough mana for HL, or believe that if you were to cast HL, you wouldn't have enough mana for a HL you'd need to cast later in the fight at a more damage intensive period. This is not a good philosophy for spell design, but honestly what else can be done? FoL and HL both do the exact same thing -- single target, direct, cast time heal. They need to be modified based on dynamic factors, such as the target's current health, presence of light's grace (a redesign of this talent might be possible too), or whatever, so that attentive and quick paladins can take advantage of certain situations to make FoL the 'right' spell to cast, instead of just the 'it'll do for now until my mana picks up a bit' spell.

edit -- regarding 51/20 vs 51/0/20, it's going to come down to several different things. Neither is 'better'. A raid with 3 ret pallies, for instance, will get less use from having a holy pally grab DSac, while a paladin with 4T8 will obviously gain more benefit from Divine Guardian. Ultimately choose based on what the fight calls for. DSac is just disgustingly good at mitigating huge amounts of burst raid damage (tantrum, mimiron P2, etc) while PoJ is fantastic for high movement fights (boar's speed is not more than enough in these cases, the extra movespeed can and will make the difference between life and death). If you're super dedicated, use dual-spec to get both. Even if you'd rather save your offspec for ret or PvP or even prot, you're still not going to have too many issues stemming purely from having chosen one spec over the other, certainly not ones large enough to stymie your progression.

People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. ... this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it.

 

superfula

You make it sound as though PoJ is absolutely necessary for success in Ulduar. If you have low awareness, then perhaps an argument can be made. However, many get along fine without it using Boar's Speed instead or no speed enchant at all. Which means for those individuals, PoJ's extra movespeed doesn't make the difference between life and death.

 

• Mex

Actually I said multiple times that either spec was completely viable, and had its own advantages. The biggest drawcard for PoJ isn't avoiding 'the fire', it's doing so quickly enough that you can get back to healing. An extra 7% base movespeed (ie 1.15 vs 1.08) will get you where you need to be ~6.5% faster. When dealing with encounters where a heal a fraction of a second too late will cause the tank to get gibbed, this can and often will make the difference (it's not just your own life and death you need to be concerned with). In this regard, it's like haste, but when you need it the most (ie after having to reposition on Thorim P2, dodge a shadow crash on Vezax, move out of grav bomb range on XT, etc etc).

Of course you can do without it and still avoid every single shadow crash, lightning charge, icicle collapse, yada yada, but I'm simply pointing out that its value is more than just saving your own skin, and assuming that because you have fast reactions you won't need it isn't entirely true. Of course, if you have an exceptionally good healing lineup, perfectly organised and spread out to prevent more than the bare minimum number of healers ever having to move, then its value will be diminished. However, don't simply assume that it's useless because you're not dying to rockets.

People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. ... this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it.