I'd have to agree here. It really does feel doable (Mimiron phase 2, hodir frozen blows) but most of the time my heals get sniped and are more useful on the tank. If the healing was coordinated beforehand, I'm sure two paladins with flash of light spam, and appropriate beacon use/positioning of the raid could handle aoe phases like this. If there's even an option for a priest/shaman/druid in the group to do the healing though, their smart-targeted aoe heals will pretty much snipe anything I try to do.

I have no complaints about my ability to raid heal. My annoyances are with a few mechanics and talents I feel are broken or unsatisfactory. If they fixed them it I think that Holy Paladins would be much happier with their ability to handle AoE damage.

The scaling on Divine Sacrifice is simply abysmal and focused purely towards Prot Paladins. Don't get me wrong - the ability is stellar in 10 mans because the amount of damage is much lower and spread over fewer people. But try using it in a 25 to mitigate any AoE damage. You'll double check to make sure you clicked the ability at all because you will see virtually no difference in damage taken throughout the raid. They need to change how this ability scales to make it useful for Holy and Protection Paladins alike, while ensuring it's not overpowered when going from 10/25 raid situations.

When you look at the T8 set bonuses one would think specing 51/17/3 would be a viable raid spec. When you are in a 25 man raid situation and either have to heal your ass off or use cooldowns to help the other healers out (or cry as you watch our Divine Sacrifice expire after 2 seconds of absorption) you'll quickly realize how unsatisfactory the abilities you gave up 8% crit for really are.

The lack of Sacred Shield stacking is also an annoyance. Me and the other Holy Paladin have to coordinate our SS targets because if we both keep them on the MT only one will be absorbed (whoever casted it first). Is this sort of mechanic prevalent in other healers abilities like Earth Shield and PoM?

Mimiron is great for pally to heal.
P1 - Keep BoL on MT and heal people with debuff. That's very effective - i told other healers to watch only MT, and so we could effectively heal ppls with debuff and tank (we raid with 2-3 Holy Pallys including me).
P2 - We use strategy to keep all ranged (incl. healers and spell casters) as close to mimiron as possible. It's easier then to avoid his AoE and AoE heals are more effective. BoL on yourself, Sacred Shield, and spam HLs. It works like a charm and there is no possibility here that someone will overheal me (except of a retri :->).
P3 - Faceroll for all healers. However i like to help in keeping Ranged Tank, by Shielding him.
P4 - is all about not failing, damage is aprox. 30% of P2 DMG, so required healing is much lower. However there is need for quick reactions.
For me as holy pala this fight is awesome.

Thorim - i used to heal in gauntlet, never tried to heal it alone, but it should be doable, again SS, BoL, and Fire Aura Mastery are perfect here.

Hodir - is all about HL's spamming and Frost Aura Mastery, i am getting always high HPS numbers here. I don't feel like useless :-)

In 10 mans however we still heal with 3 healers. 2 Holy Pala and one Holy Priest. I can't say then how effective Holy Pala alone would be there.

Thats pretty much what we do for Mimiron and Hodir 25.

I've also done several 10 man hard modes with two healers where one is a paladin and the other is either a holy or disc priest and either seems to work fine. I think one of the reasons is it really allows beacon to shine, there is enough to heal that beacon is nearly always effective. It is a good idea to arrange who is healing which group before hand though. I can imagine two paladin healers would also work if they knew what they were doing. I would say the combination of beacon, glyph of HL and the haste we have giving us fast HL's means we aren't a bad raid healer.

From the look of your gear/achievements I see no reason why you'd still be running a 3 healer setup, it's really OTT for the content. You mentioned you run with a holy priest, well the priest/pally 2 healer setup can heal every fight (inc. hardmodes) in 10man assuming you have a good raid with shadowpriest/or ret pally for the free additional healing.

It's pretty much what Saladin said that people still have this perception that pallys aren't equipped to do anything other than spam HL on a tank, this just isn't the case at all if you know how to apply the abilities blizzard expect us to use but rarely do.

To be honest with you we don't even have designated tank healers on 25m raids any more -- not for most bosses, at least. Between all the hots and beacons and SS's in the raid the tank stays up quite fine. Obviously he gets priority over raid if he is down any amount of HP -- it isn't like we straight up ignore him, but most of these bosses hit light enough that he doesn't need a dedicated healer by any means.

The Ensidia main Shaman had a blog where he said he only uses Lesser Healing Wave (a stronger Flash of Light) and Riptide (Holy Shock with a HoT) to raid heal.

In 10 man normal mode, with Holy Shock/Flash/Holy Light Glyphs, I can see a Paladin focusing on raid healing, with the other tank healing. Hard Modes I would be impressed to see it done.

That's not entirely true. I've no idea about priests, but both SSs will be absorbed. Especially if you have divine guardian in prot, which makes the shield buff last 12 seconds. But if the tank takes two hits in 6 seconds (for average of 1 hit every 1.8 seconds, 33% avoidance really, so call it duing bad streaks. And that's not including magical damage or whatever else is flying around at the time), both shields will be used. Assuming the first hit burns through the first one, else it's pretty much a joke anyway and you don't need it.

BoL does not stack though, and _that_ is annoying.

As for healing Mimiron phase 2 with FoL, I can only laugh. First of all, because I really think it wouldn't be enough and second of all because you shouldn't bother, considering you can use most of phase 3 to regen the mana you used.

In 10 man hard modes, Thorim seemed a bit hectic with 2 healers, and Freya is very hectic with 2 (haven't gotten it down yet, but we're probably not going to meet the DPS check if we use 3).

The FoL spec of 51/20 is really good on some fights and then obsolete on others. It really depends on what you are being asked to do and the mechanics of the fight. Not every fight the spam HL tactic is best and that is when the FoL spec shines.

Example of FoL spec being better: Yogg-Saron, General Vejax, Razorscale

I think a distinction needs to be made here between single and multi-target healing, as opposed to tank vs raid healing. Paladins are excellent single target healers, and capable if clumsy multi target healers. A lot of raid damage is single target damage (grav bomb, napalm shell, slag pot, 10 man grip, constrictor tents, etc) and paladins can do exceptionally well healing this sort of damage. During TBC I used to raid heal illidari council and at times even eredar twins (HL spam on flame sear targets is exceptionally good). What's generally more difficult is constant AoE damage to the entire raid, such as Saph / Felmyst / Steelbreaker auras, especially when combined with large bursts of RSTS damage, because we have to top people up one at a time for relatively large amounts, rather than all at once for smaller amounts (a la CoH / CH / WG / PoH). An all-paladin healing lineup could probably have dealt with Felmyst's aura, but would have had serious issues handling encapsulates on top of that, for instance, simply because when it hit, people at the end of the paladin's 'rotation' would have been low already while waiting for a heal.

Whether 2 paladins could truly heal 10 man hard modes I couldn't say. I certainly wouldn't go so far as to call it impossible, but I'd also say that a more balanced healing line-up would have it much easier.

Regarding the use of FoL in raids...

Consider these two parses of Mimiron Hard Mode kills.

First one has 7 healers, among them one healaladin, who somehow managed to cast more FoLs than HLs. His Flashes hit for 5-7k and crit for up to 10.7k. He had the best hps in the raid, but less than 1/3rd of that hps was actual effective healing, and in the end he did two times less effective healing than the fight's highest.
WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish

For comparison's sake, there is also a parse of Mimiron hard mode kill with 6 healers, no healadins, but two retridins instead of one.
WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish

In the end, the big problem with FoL is that - when all is said is done - it cannot manage more than 5-6k reliable healing per second. This won't save a tank in a pinch.

In defense of the first parse, however, they didn't seem to actually lose any people to healing fails. People that died all seemed to blow themselves in one manner or the other. While the second parse started losing people rapidly in the last 20-30 seconds of the fight.

It is not cleansable but it is dispellable and purgeable. The player with the MC buff counts as a hostile, so only offensive dispels work -- get a shaman or priest to do it.

It is cleanseable, they seem to have changed the way it works since ZA. The cleanse does not work with mouseover macros/Clique addon though, but if you manually target the player and press cleanse, it works.

Ive tried that... It doesnt work...

I can confirm that it actually IS cleansable, although I have yet to unterstand the circumstances. It does fail most of the time when I try to cleanse via Grid/mouseover, but I already managed to get it off somehow.

It seems that way... Ill try to clarify with the GM to get a comfirmation...

I do not use any mouseover macro or clique. I find that i'm able to cleanse it most of the time, but sometimes it bugs on a player and no matter how many casts on them i do, it won't cleanse. It could be a high level of resistance when they get mind controlled?

It would be helpful if you can provide class and talents of the target you cannot cleanse.

Warlocks with felhunter could be a problem. Rogues can also be a problem due to cloak of shadows. There are a number of skills and talents that provide significant amount of resistance, dispel resist oder magic resist.

If you run into another instance of not successfully cleansing someone, be sure to check your combatlog afterwards. If this has something to do with the mentioned skills / talents, you should see a resist of your cleanse.

For cleanse, or for anything?

If you don't see an entry for resist, then it possibly means someone dotted them and you're cleansing the dots instead of the dominate mind. Not entirely sure, I never have problems cleansing dominate minds since making the clique fix. I know I was seriously confused at first prior to the fix though.

I have had the same problem cleansing with clique but the latest version in curse and wowinterface is from one month ago and it doesnt solve the prob. I have found this post saying to add a new clique macro and copy:

/target mouseover
/cast Cleanse
/targetlasttarget

Silmeria, since i'm a bit confused, can you explain us how did you fix the problem with clique and cleansing in yogg-saron?

1. Create a macro with the three lines in it.
2. Bind whatever key you use to cast cleanse to the Macro instead of the spell Cleanse.