Razorscale: When he comes down
Ignis: Whole fight depending on how your raid turns him
XT: Heart Phase (Hard Mode can't unless you'd wanna just melee him which isn't that big a deal)
Kolo: There is a spot well away from his body on the right side just inside of his left arm where u can melee both the body or the left arm, your dmg is insignificant so if your raid doesn't want to kill the arm its fine you wont do enough dmg for it to matter.
Council of Iron: Non hard mode you can milk SoW after Steelbreaker dies (so u actually have time to stop healing)
Auriaya: Melee range the entire time
Hodir: I stack on the melee so I'm in melee range the entire time except for when theres light beams out during frozen blows
Freya: Doesn't really seem healing heavy enough on non hardmode to warrant SoW
Thorim: If you're in the arena its a lil hard, if u're in the tunnel u can melee the bosses if u get low
Mimiron: I tend to hit the big bots that come out and i'm in melee range during phase 2.
Vezax: Pointless
I got some warnings about checkboxes being unsupported in Excel, and being replaced by 'true' and 'false'. I've love it if someone would sanity check my assumptions and make sure I've not done anything silly.
Your base mana is entirely incorrect. Paladins have 4394 base mana at level 80, not 2953.
You are calculation spell haste wrong in a few ways. Different sources (Gear, JotP, etc.) stack multiplicatively not additively. Hasted cast speed is also, castspeed / (1 + spellhaste), not castspeed * (1 - spellhaste)
How you calculate breakdown of what spells you cast doesn't make sense. You just seem to calculate essentially 3 different fights one with spamming each spell for the duration (which you obviously can for FoL/HS and most fights can't for HL), but never calculate a mix of what spells you cast. Which is entirely unrealistic for any fight.
To set "only show my buffs" on the buff Light's Beacon does not work since it is not counted as belonging to you but to the person you put Beacon of Light on.
I find this quite annoying since I would like to be able to show who I'm "safe" to heal and to sometimes be able to ask the people too far away to get closer to the tank.
I do prety much the same thing as you do, show the beacon of light and light's beacon as a blue / yellow dot in the bottom right corner. It works quite well when I'm the only holy paladin in the raid but when we are two I haven't found a way to show only my Beacon-target's Light's Beacon buffs since if i turn it on to only show my buffs the Light's Beacon won't show at all and if it's turned off all Light's Beacon will show up, even those who belongs to the other paladins beacon-target.
That's pretty strange, I have no problems making grid show only my BoL on the tank (and SS as well to know when it fades).
Are you sure you've set the right buff to show? I remember having to manually add both buffs between Auras and then manually tell it to show them in the right corner of the frame (obviously the option "Show if mine" must be checked).
That's pretty strange, I have no problems making grid show only my BoL on the tank (and SS as well to know when it fades).
He wanted to see "Light's Beacon", not BoL. LB ist the buff that everyone in a 40 yards radius receive from the player who has the BoL buff. So although it is "your" LB-buff everyone is walking around with, technically it is not because the player having your BoL buff acts as the buffer.
I am trying to maximize the ability to SoW proc during Ulduar bosses, as i am having some mana trouble after about 3 min of straight HL spam (until my gear is better). I typically try to limit the amount of DP, with exceptions below, and use AW+DP at the end of fight to get in a few HoW strikes. I am using mana pots, Sapphire Owl, and Divine Illumination to keep from going OOM. Raid buffed i am at ~27k mana. Most of my experience comes from the first 6 bosses, with Kologorn giving me the most trouble.
Razorscale:
HL spam through air phase leaves me close to OOM by the time she(?) lands. I pop DP and run into melee range to SoW proc until air phase again. I am close to full mana by the time air phase returns.
XT:
This is the easiest fight to SoW proc on. I simply stand in melee range the whole fight, cast DP during heart exposure.
Kologorn:
I tried standing in melee range of the body to get SoW procs last night, but kept getting stunned or spell locked. I ended up standing away from the boss, by the door. In this fight, the raid AoE damage makes me very reluctant to use DP, especially when a healer gets caught in the arm.
Auriaya:
I am in melee range the whole fight for this, and haven't needed DP.
These are the only fights i have had time to attempt.
Regarding this, I dont see how you are running OoM on any of these fights, unless outgoing heals from other sources are so low that you are effectively "carrying" the raid, which does not seem plausible. Looking at your gear, the stat you seem to lack most is haste, though if anything, that should just lessen your mana usage, but if you are ever faced with HL spam, I would suggest using Div.Illumination during it. If further mana issues arise, take off glyph of beacon and replace it with glyph of divinity. That way, when you LOH yourself, thats about 8k mana returned, and if you have the time, go farm the AH or scholo for some darkrunes for that extra kick.
On another note though, why are you HL spamming on Razorscale before 50%? I mean an HL here and there are useful for keeping the add tanks alive, and HL is useful when he becomes grounded permenantly, but I don't see how there would be so much incoming damage when the boss is in the air. As for Kologarn, his big aoe attack comes on a rather consistant basis, so don't be reluctant to use DP on this. Unless an arm is about to die, hitting DP right after the majority of your raid has been healed up after the aoe attack allows you to regen mana with limited risk of people dying.
HoP is also safe to use during the Tympanic Tantrum on XT, Kologarn's shock wave or Thorim (not recommended for the hardmode due to the frost damage flying around). On pretty much all of the other bosses HoP+DiSac would be fatal or at least very risky.
Kologarn's Shockwave does Nature damage. My paladin suffered a very swift death from HoP+DSac in that fight.
Even if magic damage is not present or is survivable, note that HoP and DSac have the same 10 sec duration, meaning there is a GCD window where you have one effect but not the other.
Whether this is a problem or not would depend on the fight and your timing against damage events.
Regarding Mek's comment towards stacking spell power gems versus int gems, he is a Shaman, who has talents that make Lesser Healing Wave cast at 1 second or less. Mek heals using Riptide (instant), then LHW, so haste would be a worse choice than Int. Also Riptide has a HoT, so spell power affects that.
I always felt mp5 and int was more useful than spell power for Paladins, because you didn't need to cast Plea as much.
.
I think its funny too considering how often Paladin play styles are now reduced to mindlessly spamming heals on the main tank (or trying to beat the system by stacking haste and beaconing the tank...then mindlessly healing the raid). For this style of play, why would you encourage players to exchange int for spellpower? Its clear that his comment was meant for shaman so the original poster misrepresented his quote. Paladins receive a significant portion of spellpower from intellect, so your not completely ignoring the stat hes recommending by gearing for intellect.
Additionally, keep in mind that Ensidia (being fairly competent at raiding) likely can do most of these fights in a fraction of the time that normal guilds can (encounter time) due to better DPS and better execution. This has the added benefit of reducing strain on healers, possibly reducing overall quantity of healers needed for a fight. Shorter fights = less mana required = less int required. This makes his recommendations for gearing almost ludicrous for the general raiding community. Few guilds operate at a level like Ensidia and I swear to god if we see Paladins running around gem'd for spellpower again I will never stop laughing.
I think his comments towards haste are correct, at a certain point Intellect does seem a bit wasted (I have some 1950 intellect and its mostly wasted on a normal mode encounter). In general though, Paladins should be stacking Int while learning and raiding as a whole.
Think with your heads, just because Ensidia's healers are calling something out doesn't invalidate the mountain of theorycrafting the Paladin community has accumulated together here.
He wanted to see "Light's Beacon", not BoL. LB ist the buff that everyone in a 40 yards radius receive from the player who has the BoL buff. So although it is "your" LB-buff everyone is walking around with, technically it is not because the player having your BoL buff acts as the buffer.
Oh ok sorry I misunderstood
Originally Posted by Feya
I think his comments towards haste are correct, at a certain point Intellect does seem a bit wasted (I have some 1950 intellect and its mostly wasted on a normal mode encounter). In general though, Paladins should be stacking Int while learning and raiding as a whole.
Sorry if I'm skeptical about this, but did you really intended to write 1950? Because tbh it's a HUGE amount of int. And you intended it buffed? In that case ok it would clearly be possible, otherwise I don't think it's a number possible to reach with the current equipment available in Ulduar. I have nearly 1450 int unbuffed, topping 26k mana. Raid buffed I reach 30k+, which should be 1700-1750 int in the end (never checked).
At the moment never got any mana issue in Ulduar 10 (we still have to down Yogg), I'll give a serious shot to 25 very soon. Tried Deconstructor a while back but the two healers on the main tank never had the need to spam HL on him, we (both paladins) just used HL situationally and to keep the cast reduction buff up all the time
And as far as trinkets go on General Vezax, according to my calculations the 90 intellect from Darkmoon Card provides at max 6 flash of lights assuming you have the Seal of Wisdom glyph and Spark of Hope. Would Living Ice Crystals be superior then Darkmoon Card? Considering the Living Ice Crystals on use is 2/3 that of a Flash of Light.
Sorry if I'm skeptical about this, but did you really intended to write 1950? Because tbh it's a HUGE amount of int. And you intended it buffed? In that case ok it would clearly be possible, otherwise I don't think it's a number possible to reach with the current equipment available in Ulduar. I have nearly 1450 int unbuffed, topping 26k mana. Raid buffed I reach 30k+, which should be 1700-1750 int in the end (never checked).
Current Ulduar BiS, except legendary, would give 1843 int without any buffs (not even BoK) if you gem for int while not being JC. With BoK it would be over 2k int. JC/BS would have even more int and I think that a few people are almost BiS geared now or close to it. Known BiS geared paladin raid buffed with proper elixiers (not alchemist or JC) should be at around 2220 int (around 37.5k mana...).
According to armory Feya has 1577 int without any buff thus it should be around 1915 int raid buffed with guru/draenic wisdom elixiers (he is an alchemist).
@ Endoscient Can you please add [Meteorite Crystal] to RAWR and the first post of this thread? It is clearly one of the BiS trinkets for majority of fights.
Originally Posted by Stealthpally
And as far as trinkets go on General Vezax, according to my calculations the 90 intellect from Darkmoon Card provides at max 6 flash of lights assuming you have the Seal of Wisdom glyph and Spark of Hope. Would Living Ice Crystals be superior then Darkmoon Card? Considering the Living Ice Crystals on use is 2/3 that of a Flash of Light.
Full fight on hard mode is about 6.5-7 min. So darkmoon trinket is slightly better, it seems.
I think its funny too considering how often Paladin play styles are now reduced to mindlessly spamming heals on the main tank (or trying to beat the system by stacking haste and beaconing the tank...then mindlessly healing the raid). For this style of play, why would you encourage players to exchange int for spellpower? Its clear that his comment was meant for shaman so the original poster misrepresented his quote. Paladins receive a significant portion of spellpower from intellect, so your not completely ignoring the stat hes recommending by gearing for intellect.
The quote has a question and then an answer by a shaman(Mek) and a paladin(Mackzter). The shaman's answer contains the line "-- its the same for paladins. common misconception to mindlessly stack int. spell power keeps people alive, not int. ".
I don't know why you are calling me out on the shaman's comments without reading the whole quote.
Current Ulduar BiS, except legendary, would give 1843 int without any buffs (not even BoK) if you gem for int while not being JC. With BoK it would be over 2k int. JC/BS would have even more int and I think that a few people are almost BiS geared now or close to it. Known BiS geared paladin raid buffed with proper elixiers (not alchemist or JC) should be at around 2220 int (around 37.5k mana...).
According to armory Feya has 1577 int without any buff thus it should be around 1915 int raid buffed with guru/draenic wisdom elixiers (he is an alchemist).
You're right, for some reason I hadn't taken into account Uld 25 at all
Anyway is all that int/mana really necessary? Obviously restricting gems choice to SP and INT since they're clearly flatout better than all the others, once reached let's say 29-30k mana unbuffed wouldn't be more useful to go for SP? Moreover, in patch 3.2 (we're still far from its release, I know) JC will be nerfed (or "normalized" I would say, since it's clearly OP atm), giving roughly the same advantage as any other crafting profession) and from the hints I read in some blue posts they want to make FoL much viable than it is now, hence the less mana consumption and less need for a large mana pool.
Do you think there is a "sweet spot" where it would be safe to apply this rule about gems?
That being said, Divine Protection does not trigger the GCD. So you can create both the above macro and this one, to be used only in light aoe situations (any heavy raidwide aoe in a 25 man situations will still assassinate you):
Your base mana is entirely incorrect. Paladins have 4394 base mana at level 80, not 2953.
You are calculation spell haste wrong in a few ways. Different sources (Gear, JotP, etc.) stack multiplicatively not additively. Hasted cast speed is also, castspeed / (1 + spellhaste), not castspeed * (1 - spellhaste)
How you calculate breakdown of what spells you cast doesn't make sense. You just seem to calculate essentially 3 different fights one with spamming each spell for the duration (which you obviously can for FoL/HS and most fights can't for HL), but never calculate a mix of what spells you cast. Which is entirely unrealistic for any fight.
Thank you for the feedback and corrections. I've corrected the mistake I made with base mana & haste, and am working on improving the model used to give stat weightings. I'll post again with a new version of the sheet for others to use once I'm happy the changes are correct.
That being said, Divine Protection does not trigger the GCD. So you can create both the above macro and this one, to be used only in light aoe situations (any heavy raidwide aoe in a 25 man situations will still assassinate you):
/cast divine protection
/cast divine sacrifice
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought a few pages ago the common consensus was that divine protection does not reduce damage taken from divine sacrifice? I haven't done any serious testing on this, but this would be consisted with what I experienced the few times I tried combining DiSac+DiProt - dying instantly.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought a few pages ago the common consensus was that divine protection does not reduce damage taken from divine sacrifice? I haven't done any serious testing on this, but this would be consisted with what I experienced the few times I tried combining DiSac+DiProt - dying instantly.
Divine Protection reduces all damage by 50%... However, if you're in a situation where DiSac really matters, you'd get gibbed almost instantly since you're still taking quite a bit of damage. Probably best to leave it to the tanks.
Originally Posted by Feya
Additionally, keep in mind that Ensidia (being fairly competent at raiding) likely can do most of these fights in a fraction of the time that normal guilds can (encounter time) due to better DPS and better execution. This has the added benefit of reducing strain on healers, possibly reducing overall quantity of healers needed for a fight. Shorter fights = less mana required = less int required. This makes his recommendations for gearing almost ludicrous for the general raiding community. Few guilds operate at a level like Ensidia and I swear to god if we see Paladins running around gem'd for spellpower again I will never stop laughing.
I think his comments towards haste are correct, at a certain point Intellect does seem a bit wasted (I have some 1950 intellect and its mostly wasted on a normal mode encounter). In general though, Paladins should be stacking Int while learning and raiding as a whole.
Think with your heads, just because Ensidia's healers are calling something out doesn't invalidate the mountain of theorycrafting the Paladin community has accumulated together here.
Ensidia has shown that they don't go the main theorycrafting route.. But that's okay. If they manage to find something that works for them, great. Still, I bet some of them are thinking there could be something better that works, and they'd be right.
Last edited by Jackinthegreen : 06/14/09 at 8:35 PM.
Considering the only time theorycrafting is used is within a raid environment, I was giving my raid buffed intellect score. So yea... your correct, 1900 give or take considering what pieces I put on.
What I have noticed is that most of the ulduar gear is severely lacking in stats I typically stacked. My haste scores dropped almost 200 points since equipping ulduar gear, which has made my holy lights significantly less responsive. There are quite a few crafted plate pieces with similar gemslots, that have haste I'm gonna have crafted soon. Haste is my favorite stat (over crit) due to my uncontrollable urge to help raid heal.
Ensidia has shown that they don't go the main theorycrafting route.. But that's okay. If they manage to find something that works for them, great. Still, I bet some of them are thinking there could be something better that works, and they'd be right.
Your right, whats worked for Ensidia has obviously worked for their gearing methods and playstyle. My point was that merely because their healers say one thing it shouldn't be taken as gospel (and I don't think anyone is doing that ...yet), because Ensidia healers operate inside of a pro-raiding bubble that the vast majority of guilds are not included in. You say they think something better exists.... and theyd be right but thats a vague statement. What are you trying to state? That spellpower is more important at X value of int? If thats the case why don't you post what you think the X value should be or something less cryptic and snide.
Considering the only time theorycrafting is used is within a raid environment, I was giving my raid buffed intellect score. So yea... your correct, 1900 give or take considering what pieces I put on.
What I have noticed is that most of the ulduar gear is severely lacking in stats I typically stacked. My haste scores dropped almost 200 points since equipping ulduar gear, which has made my holy lights significantly less responsive. There are quite a few crafted plate pieces with similar gemslots, that have haste I'm gonna have crafted soon. Haste is my favorite stat (over crit) due to my uncontrollable urge to help raid heal.
Yes, same issue here. Atm I cast HL in 1.537s, in naxx gear it was way lower.
Originally Posted by Feya
Your right, whats worked for Ensidia has obviously worked for their gearing methods and playstyle. My point was that merely because their healers say one thing it shouldn't be taken as gospel (and I don't think anyone is doing that ...yet), because Ensidia healers operate inside of a pro-raiding bubble that the vast majority of guilds are not included in. You say they think something better exists.... and theyd be right but thats a vague statement. What are you trying to state? That spellpower is more important at X value of int? If thats the case why don't you post what you think the X value should be or something less cryptic and snide.
Yes, this is exactly what I'd like to know, since I couldn't try anything myself yet due to lack of people for Uld25
Your right, whats worked for Ensidia has obviously worked for their gearing methods and playstyle. My point was that merely because their healers say one thing it shouldn't be taken as gospel (and I don't think anyone is doing that ...yet), because Ensidia healers operate inside of a pro-raiding bubble that the vast majority of guilds are not included in. You say they think something better exists.... and theyd be right but thats a vague statement. What are you trying to state? That spellpower is more important at X value of int? If thats the case why don't you post what you think the X value should be or something less cryptic and snide.
Theorycraft and numbers are hard to ignore is what I mean. The "something better" is vague yes, but I mean it in that there can be a more effective gearing setup, playstyle, etc. Whether X is better than Y, for the case of my argument, is shown from the data and spreadsheets that have been assembled.
I've gained quite a bit of haste while acquiring Ulduar25 gear. I'm using 4/5 T8 and while gemming for straight Int I sit at 620 haste. I stay away from items that have Crit+Mp5 (which there are many of in Ulduar) since I feel that is regen overkill and I would much rather keep my haste as high as possible. I have been getting more and more Haste+Mp5 gear as it feel pointless to try to compete with half the raid for the uber 'Haste+Sp+Crit' itemized gear.
I really wish they would make it fun to choose which items I should get, like Melee and Ranged do. They have to carefully balance their Hit and ArPen and whatever else to maximize DPS. I pretty much faceroll myself through gear choices, and as long as my Haste stays above 500 it doesn't really matter.
Tested SS on Thrym with and without BoK:
2118 SP = 2762 absorb
2148 SP = 2792 absorb
2259 SP = 2902 absorb
It means scaling is better - 1 SP adds 1 absorb instead of 0.9 (=0.75*1.2). It is something like 644+SP with holy/prot spec. So with 3500 hypothetical SP cap in Ulduar gear it would absorb over 4k damage. With 4pT8 and holy/prot spec it is up to 60k damage absorbed for single gcd.
I was noticing similar absorbs, and decided to test it out for myself as well in a few different gear sets/specs.
These numbers are quite random, but if you plug in the equation (.85SP + 500) you can see the values are ~the same.
With this spec and 4T8.5 bonus the coefficient is .85SP + 500
EDIT: Thanks to Phayne2355 for clearing up some of the coefficient mystery...it seems that having the 4pc T8 bonus gives an additional 10% SP coefficient for SS.
06/12/09, 3:16 PM
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