The Armory Leaked 3 hard mode items today that look interesting to Holy Paladins that I have not seen posted any where yet.
Drape of the Sullen Goddess
Binds when picked up
Back
162 Armor
+61 Stamina
+51 Intellect
Yellow Socket
Requires Level 80
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 40
Equip: Increases spell power by 75
Equip: Increases your mana regen by 19
Show of Faith
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket
Requires Level 80
Equip: Increases spell power by 140
Equip: Each time you cast a spell, there is a chance you will gain up to 193 mana per 5 for 15 sec.
Starshine Circle
+61 Stam
+51 Int
Yellow Socket
+39 Haste
+75 Spell Power
+19 MP/5
Not sure if the New cloak is an upgrade from Pennant wouldn't trade haste for Mp5 for sure but 13 levels higher and more int
Trinket is another Clone of Memmento/Jetze bell/SIf's with more SP and MP5 the numbers are so high might be worth a look though I doubt its better than the Int trinkets.
239 ring with a socket no crit and has mp5 but 51 int plus a yellow socket might be worth look into.
Was kind of expecting better stats from Hard mode loot but not too bad overall could be better
Was kind of expecting better stats from Hard mode loot but not too bad overall could be better
Bear in mind that the cloak and the ring are quest rewards for killing Algalon the Observer. Each is one of four quest rewards intended for Strength-based melee, Agility-based melee (or hunters), Healers, and Caster DPS. It is pretty much impossible to perfectly itemize an item for all classes--for example, ArPen is far more valuable to a DPS warrior than a DPS paladin.
Likewise, MP5 is very useful for a resto shaman, while being "decent" for a holy paladin. They could either stick MP5 on it and paladins just accept it, or omit MP5 and shamans vendor it. Quest rewards are rarely BIS, and even more rarely BIS for all classes. The only notable exception that I'm aware of are the Malygos necks.
Remember, MP5 does not make gear bad. It just makes it not as good as it could be.
The socket on the malygos neck is what makes it BiS. For us, it allows 16 more int then any other option since its based on ilvl. Infact, sockets are a very easy way to make generalized pieces desirable for many classes. The maly tank neck is used by DKs for example, even though it has block.
The Armory Leaked 3 hard mode items today that look interesting to Holy Paladins that I have not seen posted any where yet.
The cloak/ring are exclusive, you can only do the Yogg quest once.
Originally Posted by Nodrak
The socket on the malygos neck is what makes it BiS. For us, it allows 16 more int then any other option since its based on ilvl. Infact, sockets are a very easy way to make generalized pieces desirable for many classes. The maly tank neck is used by DKs for example, even though it has block.
The Maly neck was second best for Ferals (until Ulduar), because it was 1 of 2 ilevel 226 necks.
The general rule is if an item has a socket and is a higher ilevel, then it is most likely an upgrade.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Divinity reliably increases burst healing with no benefit to efficiency.
That's not true. Haste would increase your burst, with no effect on efficiency. Extra healing for no extra mana = better efficiency. It doesn't increase it as much as crit (which provides extra healing _and_ extra mana), nor does it increase regen, but it does a benefit to efficiency.
Bear in mind that the cloak and the ring are quest rewards for killing Algalon the Observer.
Originally Posted by frmorrison
The cloak/ring are exclusive, you can only do the Yogg quest once.
The cloak I linked is not the Algalon quest reward. The quest cloak is itemized for spirit/haste which is why I didnt list it.
Armory list it as Hard Mode Chest Drop From heroic Freya. The World of Warcraft Armory
It is pretty much impossible to perfectly itemize an item for all classes
This I kind of disagree I was kind of hoping for a 239 Level Signet of Manifested Pain which for the most part would be desired by all casters with possibly the exception of Resto Druids.
Looks like the stats for Val'anyr have been leaked through the armory aswell (as reported by MMO-Champion here: Val'anyr report) and they look extreamly favorable for a paladin:
54 int
587 sp
47 crit
46 haste
52 stam
though they feel abit underwhelming for a legendary item, it's only slightly better than the Turning Tide:
50 int
520 sp
37 crit
48 haste
36 stam
They're the kind of stats I'd expect from a end of Ulduar weapon to be sure... but an Epic one rather than a Legendary one. Is the bonus for being orange just the use effect? I wasn't around for the Atish staves or Thunderfury and don't know enough about melee stats to compare the Warglaives so not sure how much of a boost they were over Epic items.
Also I can't seem to find the item myself in the Armory so not sure what that means.
Interesting to see your numbers, Pirjo. I've been doing the same thing with Rawr, and here's the numbers I get:
In my current gear (which admittedly has a pair of U25 pieces already) Rawr is showing 4647 Fight and 4634 Burst. Swapping 5/5 T7.5 for 5/5 T8.5 puts me at 4586 Fight and 4748 Burst. I would trade 61 Fight for 114 Burst plus the new set bonus which I'm pretty certain Rawr does not model.
There is one component RAWR doesn´t model for healers currently. Survival will be a more needed component in Ulduar, i wonder how much HP you would get with the new ulduar-items. This should be considered for fights like Mimiron where massive AE/Random-Dmg is dished out.
Maybe the new items are only a small upgrade for hpm/hps, but they will help survive the longer fights massively. (The heal-ouptut should already be sufficient with naxx-gear.)
They're the kind of stats I'd expect from a end of Ulduar weapon to be sure... but an Epic one rather than a Legendary one. Is the bonus for being orange just the use effect? I wasn't around for the Atish staves or Thunderfury and don't know enough about melee stats to compare the Warglaives.
Also I can't seem to find the item myself in the Armory so not sure what that means.
Statwise it is a 239 Weapon its the proc that makes it legendary Also Blizzard took it off the armory earlier after it was leaked there were also some 252ilevel PvP items that were briefly seen today.
There is one component RAWR doesn´t model for healers currently. Survival will be a more needed component in Ulduar, i wonder how much HP you would get with the new ulduar-items. This should be considered for fights like Mimiron where massive AE/Random-Dmg is dished out.
Maybe the new items are only a small upgrade for hpm/hps, but they will help survive the longer fights massively. (The heal-ouptut should already be sufficient with naxx-gear.)
The list I posted on the other page (whether it's best or not) gives 21.9k hp raid buffed - I don't know how high the AoE is on later fights and hard modes etc. Oh and thats excluding commanding shout/blood pact.
That's not true. Haste would increase your burst, with no effect on efficiency. Extra healing for no extra mana = better efficiency. It doesn't increase it as much as crit (which provides extra healing _and_ extra mana), nor does it increase regen, but it does a benefit to efficiency.
Gonna have to disagree with you here, chief. Haste does have an effect on efficiency--a negative one. It increases your throughput while also increasing your mana expenditure.
Strictly speaking of HPM, yes, you can increase HPM "efficiency" by increasing either HPS for no mana cost or increasing mana regen for no HPS cost. However, a 5% increase in HPS does not improve your mana longevity unless it allows you to not cast a heal that you normally would have had to cast. As it is, that's simply not the case. If a tank is in a position that he needs 3 Holy Lights over a short period of time to survive, you're going to have to cast three Holy Lights regardless of if you have Divinity or not.
Thus, Divinity really does nothing to improve your mana regen / longevity, which makes its contribution to pure HPM efficiency not worth mentioning. Remember, HPM is not necessarily equal to mana sustainability. It's a component, but not the whole pot.
EDIT: To put what I'm trying to say in simpler terms, there are two general areas that healers need to worry about--throughput (can I keep my target's health bar full?) and longevity (can I keep my mana bar full?). It's hard to argue that Divinity has any noticeable effect on longevity, since you would have to cast 20 Holy Lights on your target before the extra 5% healing adds up to one full Holy Light you did not have to cast, assuming that 0 of those holy lights overheal. It's just not a realistic scenario.
To reiterate, Divinity increases throughput, while Sanctity of Battle increases the longevity with a minor increase to the former.
I was also wondering why Blizzard considered the "epic" upgrade of Val'anyr to be "legendary". However, after this blue post I saw on MMO champion:
The proc is probably better than you guys are assuming (even for druids). I'm not going to spoil it though.
I began wondering if the wording implies that the absorption shield is consumed after the amount healed or if it stays for the duration of the buff. Another theory would be that ALL your heals would apply this shield, i.e. 10 holy lights would lead to 10 shields. Here is the item text for any who haven't read it it:
Equip Effect - Your healing spells have a chance to cause Blessing of Ancient Kings for 15 seconds allowing your heals to shield the target absorbing damage equal to 15% of the amount healed.
I apologize if this might be too much speculation but I believe either of these theories are supported under the wording of the item text.
In theory if the Buff has No ICD then it could be possible for a druid to keep the buff always via hots and cast large direct heals to get the most out of the shields.
Another consideration is whether or not Val'anyr's shield works off of effective healing only, or total healing. More than likely it's total healing, which means when Ancient Kings procs you could spam your highest HPS heals regardless of target health to pump up the shielding effect.
I've always wondered about the benefit of Intellect versus Critical given our current gear choices. Since it's a bit hard to run adequate healer simulations, I tried to run a short simulation comparing the two. The napkin math simulation attempts to compare Intellect and Critical gem/trinket choices on a mana spent versus mana acquired level. Using this as a jumping off point, I plugged my numbers into a spreadsheet with these assumptions:
* Seal of Wisdom Glyph, 4 pc T7 bonus, and [Libram of Renewal] are all active
* Kings, Improved Mark, Arcane Intellect, and Boomkin Aura are all present
* 18 points are put into Retribution for 8% critical
* Only Holy Light is being cast
* Divine Plea (used every CD), a glyphed LoH (on myself), and mana pot are all being used
* Intellect and Critical scaling are done off my gear - (1094 Intellect and 37.34% Holy Spell Critical unbuffed)
Currently, the variables hover around my trinket and gem choices. Negating the purple and orange gems used for the Meta, that left 9 sockets and the 2 trinkets for me to work with. I ran the quasi-simulation with 9x 16 critical gems and my current trinkets [Eye of the Broodmother] and [Soul of the Dead] (while ignoring their secondary equip procs) versus 9x 16 intellect gems and Greatness Card (+90 Int) plus [Pandora's Plea] (again, ignoring the procs).
In a ~5 minute fight with about 175 Holy Lights being cast, I got:
Intellect
51.50% = Critical
111,308 = Mana In
113,145 = Mana Out
Critical
56.00% = Critical
112,145 = Mana In
106,665 = Mana Out
In a ~10 minute fight with about 350 Holy Lights being cast, I got:
Intellect
51.50% Critical
205,829 Mana In
254,180 Mana Out
Critical
56.00% = Critical
206,092 = Mana In
238,405 = Mana Out
The first napkin math simulation nets a mere 837 more mana in for critical stats, but with 6,480 less mana being spent. The second simulation nets a tiny 263 more mana in for critical stats, with 15,775 less mana being spent. With replenishment (assumed 100% uptime), the numbers flip a little:
Intellect ~5 min
51.50% = Critical
143,484 = Mana In
129,308 = Mana Out
Intellect ~10 min
51.50% = Critical
270,181 = Mana In
290,492 = Mana Out
Critical ~5 min
56.00% = Critical
141,014 = Mana In
121,903 = Mana Out
Critical ~10 min
56.00% = Critical
263,831 = Mana In
272,463 = Mana Out
Here, gemming and trinketing for critical nets 2470 and 6350 less mana in respectively (compared to gemming and trinketing for intellect) during the ~5 minute. However, critical spends 7405 and 18029 less mana in each fight respectively.
Given that these numbers ignore movement based bosses, don't take other factors (like procs, additional class/food buffs, going OOM, etc.) into account, and are based solely off my gear choices (all of my gear pieces sans weapon have critical on them), I still thought it was a little interesting.
Since Blizzard has referenced that they would like to tune Holy Paladins through Illumination, I wonder if they aren't pushing us more towards a greater usage of the talent. I gather my overarching question remains: Will there be a definitive point in Ulduar or further end-game where Intellect will be overtaken by Critical (or another stat)?
Gonna have to disagree with you here, chief. Haste does have an effect on efficiency--a negative one. It increases your throughput while also increasing your mana expenditure.
I fail to see how haste increases your mana expenditure. You heal the same amount, for the same mana cost, only faster. Yes, you use up your mana faster, but you also heal faster. For me, that's having no effect on efficiency, as I see efficiency as maximising HPM, not minimising MPS.
Originally Posted by Saladin
Strictly speaking of HPM, yes, you can increase HPM "efficiency" by increasing either HPS for no mana cost or increasing mana regen for no HPS cost. However, a 5% increase in HPS does not improve your mana longevity unless it allows you to not cast a heal that you normally would have had to cast. As it is, that's simply not the case. If a tank is in a position that he needs 3 Holy Lights over a short period of time to survive, you're going to have to cast three Holy Lights regardless of if you have Divinity or not.
That's true. But, yes, longevity is different from efficiency, and I was just nitpicking. :-)
On that note, an example of more healing (increasing efficiency+throughput) increasing longevity would be the ability to use DP without asking the other healers for help (which might already be over-stretched), or waiting for a lull in the fight. So, in some circumstances, using a trinket with a +spell on-use effect might increase longevity.
Since Blizzard has referenced that they would like to tune Holy Paladins through Illumination, I wonder if they aren't pushing us more towards a greater usage of the talent. I gather my overarching question remains: Will there be a definitive point in Ulduar or further end-game where Intellect will be overtaken by Critical (or another stat)?
Looking at the itemization of Ulduar sp plate, most of it has haste/mp5/sp, so I don't know what they have in mind.
Once you add other factors (like Divine Plea and Replenishment), Int is the better stat than Crit. However, if your 10-man didn't have Replenishment, perhaps crit would be better.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
So running a heroic today, I noticed that my beacon of light wasn't double dipping the extra healing from divinity. I didn't get to take a screenshot or a combatlog or anything but I'll do some proper testing in my TC hangouts to make sure it wasn't just some fluke bug occuring, but holy shocked myself for 5120 and didnt get topped off, saw the tank get 5120 in healing with 5 points in divinity should have been 5376. When I do my tests, I'll see how avenging wrath works with the beacon as well.
One thing that should be noted is the annoyance factor between the "meat" food and the "fish" food: food cooked from the different types of meat do not offer mana while eating. [Spiced Worm Burger] will give you back 15,000 health and no mana while eating it, compared to 15,000health and 12,960mana that the [Spicy Blue Nettlefish] will give. It may seem trivial, but filling up a 30k+ mana pool takes forever and I personally regret finding out about this only recently.
Note that you can first activate mage food and then the buff food to have the drink effect and the buff effect at the same time.
To OP:
Flash of Light glyph description could use a small update to remove the 3.0.3 reference.
I would like to have a more detailed explanation of the effectiveness of mp5 compared to crit in the OP. There has been some math on it.
As previously mentioned, I believed that multiple paladins casting multiple Sacred Shields on the same tank stacked and allowed for more damage to be absorbed. I have provided a video link to show that the two shields are indeed procing independent shields. I have a feeling that the combat logs simply are not generating the required and correct information to properly assess whats going on here. It felt like my partner in crime and I were witnessing more then merely one shield absorbing damage while watching the incoming damage.
This video link clearly shows the procing occuring with multiple shields up on a tank. Further it also shows the shields falling off at different times. Regardless of what the log shows, this indicates that they DO NOT share the same cooldown and that they DO have a cumulative effect in absorbing damage.
I purposely selected a low damage fight to highlight the shields falling independently of each other (indicating they were both absorbing damage). In a fight like General Valstraz (sp?), all shields would likely be absorbed at the same time (and thus refresh at the same time, until holy paladins get 4pc bonus).
I do not know why in a fight where 20k + hits are being witnessed, that the combat logs fail to show the entirety of damage being absorbed. I have a feeling that big attacks are blowing through the first of lets say 3 shields, but the last one to absorb the attack is the only one reported to the combat logs. I would assume that this is likely a bug in the combat log side of Blizzards programming. If this is a bugged mechanic and we are truly not meant to stack shields on one person, why allow us to cast multiple shields on the same person?
I feel slightly vindicated providing evidence, but to those of you with more number/log crunching capabilities perhaps you can explain better than I can what exactly is going on here.
Well, according to MMO-Champ, all hard mode items have been discovered. Looking through the list, I sincerely hope this is not the case.
We've all tried to take the MP5-crazed Ulduar itemization with a grain of salt saying that hardmodes were sure to reward superior itemization, such as that seen in the Breastplate of the Devoted.
If this list is complete and to be believed, however, that is the only "perfectly" itemized hardmode healing plate piece in Ulduar. (Note: Algalon's drops have not been discovered yet, but I sincerely doubt his loot table consists of a full suit of perfectly itemized paladin healer armor minus the chest. At most, I'd expect one paladin piece and maybe a multi-purpose ring, neck, or such.)
So it looks like there's no getting around that there are 3 superbly itemized paladin healing pieces in Ulduar, and the rest are laden with suboptimal MP5. Perhaps, then, we should field some discussion about the thresholds at which you can exchange well-itemized offset pieces from current content for suboptimal offset pieces from hard-mode Ulduar, as well as what are acceptable stats to exchange.
For example, choosing between Crit/Haste vs. Crit/MP5 vs. Haste/MP5. We agree that crit is primarily a regen stat, so it looks like Crit/MP5 would be doubling up on regen while Haste/MP5 would translate to the same combined regen/throughput role as crit/haste. However, crit does have an effect (albeit random and unmeasurable) on throughput, and we should try to find the point at which X Crit rating outweighs Y Haste rating outweighs Z MP5. As many have stated, there is no set scale for gearing as a healer--the importance of stats changes dynamically as you achieve certain levels. It would be helpful to new readers to develop some waypoints for what those levels are. I.e., gem for Int, hit 500-550 haste rating, 50% crit, and 250 MP5.
In other words, we've got less-than-stellar gear and we need to discover how to make the most out of it.
In other words, we've got less-than-stellar gear and we need to discover how to make the most out of it.
I've been looking over the past couple of days with that in mind and I've come to the conclusion that we'll need to gear and spec for the fights. I've been playing around lots on the easymodes with which spec comes out as being strongest for which pull between my 51/0/20 and 52/17/2, to that end I honestly believe each spec should really be itemised differently. *EDIT* Thinking about being optimal some fights are more apt for pure output over many sources and beaconing the tank, other fights don't allow much healing movement off the tank to clarify the first statement *EDIT*
51/0/20 (51/5/15, 51/2/17 etc) is our pure throughput build, as such gearing in the way we are now is the way forward as it was and as we're thinking the itemisation is pretty poor from what we've seen but then it would take a lot to force you to drop the 4 piece bonus.
But surely the Divine Guardian builds are more suited to stacking for stronger shields, stronger base heals and lessening the number of healers you need on the MT (In most cases from 2 to 1 I know). I might be completely off the mark in my thinking at the moment but come hardmode fights it seems like lessening the number of healers you take is the priority, 4 second SS shields and large base healing Holy Lights in my mind are the strongest option to allow you to do it.
I also think it's still too early to be coming out with "BiS" lists, Until the Alagon loot table is seen which undoubtedly is going to hold at least 1 new "BiS" item if not 2 or 3 it's not worth poring over because it might change how things look drastically.
Well, according to MMO-Champ, all hard mode items have been discovered. Looking through the list, I sincerely hope this is not the case.
We've all tried to take the MP5-crazed Ulduar itemization with a grain of salt saying that hardmodes were sure to reward superior itemization, such as that seen in the Breastplate of the Devoted.
If this list is complete and to be believed, however, that is the only "perfectly" itemized hardmode healing plate piece in Ulduar. (Note: Algalon's drops have not been discovered yet, but I sincerely doubt his loot table consists of a full suit of perfectly itemized paladin healer armor minus the chest. At most, I'd expect one paladin piece and maybe a multi-purpose ring, neck, or such.)
So it looks like there's no getting around that there are 3 superbly itemized paladin healing pieces in Ulduar, and the rest are laden with suboptimal MP5. Perhaps, then, we should field some discussion about the thresholds at which you can exchange well-itemized offset pieces from current content for suboptimal offset pieces from hard-mode Ulduar, as well as what are acceptable stats to exchange.
For example, choosing between Crit/Haste vs. Crit/MP5 vs. Haste/MP5. We agree that crit is primarily a regen stat, so it looks like Crit/MP5 would be doubling up on regen while Haste/MP5 would translate to the same combined regen/throughput role as crit/haste. However, crit does have an effect (albeit random and unmeasurable) on throughput, and we should try to find the point at which X Crit rating outweighs Y Haste rating outweighs Z MP5. As many have stated, there is no set scale for gearing as a healer--the importance of stats changes dynamically as you achieve certain levels. It would be helpful to new readers to develop some waypoints for what those levels are. I.e., gem for Int, hit 500-550 haste rating, 50% crit, and 250 MP5.
In other words, we've got less-than-stellar gear and we need to discover how to make the most out of it.
Well, i`ll have to agree with you on all points.. however judging from the amount of aoe damage, i see no point in keeping the current offset gear. We will probably need the stamina, as sad as that may sound. We will probably lose a lot of crit, yes. But we will gain a lot of intellect which will compensate for that a lot (though not completely) and that same intellect will help us in other areas (replenishment) so all in all, i think we wont lose that much if we end up picking MP5 gear.
The current BiS list i`ve got generated from rawr, shows me t8.5 head and shoulders, and the rest standalone pieces. It also shows me a total of 3 non-plate pieces from what rawr has in its database, this being the wrists (Bindings of Winter Gale), the hands (Runeshaper`s Gloves) and the waist (Belt of the Fallen Wyrm). I`ll have to add that rawr saw no upgrade for my legs or boots though. Is anyone else seeing similar stuff?
Let`s say for the sake of argument that i`d like plate-only gear as my BiS... What are my best options for those slots? I`m still quite clumsy with rawr, hence i`m asking.
I`m just really curious if you guys are seeing the same results as me.
04/24/09, 9:10 PM
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