gcbirzan

Stopcasting your FoL is pretty much useless. You're still stuck in GCD.

Now, on topic. Comparing Miel with rythox: She sniped more, had SS on the tank taking more damage/got more lucky with the order, had Beacon, got a LoH in and used Divine Sacrifice. Other than that, they're pretty much on equal footing. Also, both of your other paladins are not hitting the Holy Light button hard enough, they are using way too many FoLs which overheal (probably from sniping), but especially Cristo.
On another note, they all need to learn to use mana regen. Cristo's activity is 90%, but he never once meleed the boss. Rhytox is even worse, 69% and only did it twice, while using Divine Plea 5 times, and same goes for Miel (who used divine plea 4 times, without meleeing). Cristo and Miel also need to keep JotP up more, they have 20% and 50% uptime respectively.

 

Nyvi

Well okay, first of all, I'm tanking Molgeim at the start of this attempt, while Steelbreaker is being tanked by a warrior. We have had a tendency to die due to our tank being gibbed by RoP+Fusion Punch, so we're going on with better safe than sorry. From what I know, the setup was:

A shaman on me (pally tank on Molgeim)

A shaman on our DK (Frost Prescence and DPS on Brundir)

either 3 paladins or 2 paladins and a druid on the warrior (on Steelbreaker)

A priest for raid (Shadow priests dealing with Fusion Punch)

So that's the reasoning behind it, and the composition changed around a lot during the fight. Wipe at 4% and I'd picked up a rampaging Molgeim midway through phase 3.

I'll direct the mana regen issue to them..

 

Mox

Well firstly you shouldn't be compensating for your warriors lack of moving skill by overhealing him, tell him to move quicker or replace.. really is simple as that. That frees up 2 healer slots from him by the looks of it, replace 1 with a DPSer and you wouldn't have had that 4% wipe in first place. Go with something like

Pally + shaman (for armor buff) on steelbreaker tank. > after steelbreak dies pally goes onto runemaster tank and the shaman raid heals.
2nd Pally on runemaster tank.
Shaman on stormcaller tank. > after stormcaller dies shaman raid heals.
Priest raid healing.

 

DiamondTear

If you follow the quotes, you'll notice I was talking about conservators.

Physical damage on the Steelbreaker tank is quite pitiful and it would be safer to have a dispeller.

 

Mox

Pally can dispell last time I looked in my spellbook? Never had a problem dispelling/healing it even with steelbreaker last, so I can't see your point? The damage isn't pitiful when you start to change the order around, steelbreaker last and you want the armor buff up 100% of time.

 

Tarifa

I would suggest switching prot pally to Steelbreaker and warrior to Molgeim, paladin can simply cleanse fusion punches from himself. This will let spriest in your case focus on dps'ing.

 

Silmeria

I typically just sync a cleanse with my holy light timed with the fusion punch. You can get the odd resist here and there, but the very rare tick of FP in p1/p2 usually isn't a dealbreaker, although I've had to LoH during these scenarios once or twice to ensure no tank death.

P3 cleanses are best off-loaded to your ret paladin, to avoid any resisted fusion punch dispels and to give you an extra GCD. You could ask your SPs to do p3 dispels, but they are likely static disruption tanking outside of the raid at this point and may have range complications.

 

• frmorrison

I have seen a cleanse resist (not from me playing Ret, but a Holy Priest) wipe, so Silm is right that you want to get a Ret or Spriest to cleanse on p3. Focusing Steelbreaker helps so you know when you need to start spamming cleanse once the cast is about done.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

DiamondTear

I meant as a backup. When your dispellers aren't that good, it's better to have backup for dispelling than an armor buff. Why are you talking about switching the order around now, after talking about a specific order in the quoted post?

 

Abeness

Comparing Mp5 and Crit rating is a problem for Holy Paladins. We have no comparison between the two to determine how much crit rating is worth giving up for a certain amount of Mp5. Generally, the rule has always been to stack crit and gain some Mp5 on the side. But the new Ulduar gear has seen a shift from high amounts of crit to Mp5, which forces us to either lose a large chunk of crit for the higher intellect/SP, or to mix-and-match the Mp5 gear from Ulduar and the crit gear from Naxxramas. The tricky part about comparing the two regen stats is that their comparison differs with playstyle; mainly, how often that paladin casts. Luckily, there is room for such variables in math.

In order to effectively compare Mp5 and Crit, we need to know how much Mp5 a given amount of crit rating is worth. To figure that out, we'll need to find out how much Mp5 a given amount of crit percent is worth, then change the crit value by 1%, and find out how much Mp5 the new crit value is worth. The difference between the two Mp5 numbers will be the Mp5 one gains when they gain 1% crit. From there, we can convert 1% crit into 45.91 crit rating (45.91 crit rating to a %) and we'll then be able to determine how much Mp5 1 crit rating is worth.

To determine the Mp5 gained by having a certain crit %, we'll need to figure out the average amount of mana that is gained through Illumination per Holy Light cast. Multiplying the amount of mana gained when not critting by the percent of the time the paladin is not critting, and adding that to the product of the amount of mana gained when the paladin crits and the percent of the time the paladin crits gives the average amount of mana saved due to Illumination per Holy Light cast:

manaBack = 765; (1274 * .6 from the Illumination talent)
AverageSaved = (0) * (100-critPercent) + (critPercent) * (manaBack);
or more simply, AverageSaved = (critPercent) * (manaBack);

For our crit percentages, we'll use 19% and 20% crit. Doesn't matter what they are, as long as they are 1% apart. Let's start with 19%:
AverageSaved_1 = (.19) * (manaBack) = 145.35 mana;
So, the average mana saved per Holy Light cast for a paladin with 19% crit is 145.35 mana.

Now to determine the amount of Mp5 this saved mana is worth. Divide the Mp5 by how often the paladin casts (in seconds) to get the mana gained per second and multiply by 5 to get the Mp5 gained from Illumination. Crit's Mp5 depends on how often the player casts. If they cast slowly, the crit is worth less because you can only get mana back for finished casts. In order to continue, we'll have to know how often the paladin finishes a cast. For now, we'll assume the player is casting once every 5 seconds. (Seconds between casts = SecBetCasts)

FirstMp5 = 5 * (AverageSaved_1 / SecBetCasts) = 5 * (145.35 / 5) = 145.35 Mp5;

Now we'll do the same steps as above, except this time for 20% crit to create a 1% crit gap between the two sets of data.
AverageSaved_2 = (.20) * (manaBack) = 153;
So, the average mana saved per Holy Light cast for a paladin with 20% crit is 153 mana.

Convert that mana into Mp5:
SecondMp5 = 5 * (AverageSaved_2 / SecBetCasts) = 5 * (153 / 5) = 153 Mp5;

The difference between FirstMp5 and SecondMp5 is the amount of Mp5 the paladin gets for a 1% crit increase. Divide that number by the crit rating necessary to get 1% crit (45.91) and you have the Mp5 gained per point of crit rating.

Mp5 per point of crit rating = (SecondMp5 - FirstMp5) / 45.91 = (7.65 / 45.91) = .16663;
So 1 point of crit rating gives the equivalent of .16663 Mp5 when casting once every 5 seconds.

Using these equations, the following chart was made:


Note that as you cast less, you gain less mana from crit. Using item stat points, the points spent on 100 Crit rating would be enough to get 40 Mp5. The only way crit would yield more Mp5 point for point is if the paladin's average time between holy light casts was just above 2 seconds for the whole duration of combat. Even with a fair amount of haste, that would require the paladin to practically spam cast Holy Light for the entire fight. If you were to compare a 16 crit gem with a 7 Mp5 gem, the cast speed would need to be faster than ~1.875 seconds for crit to yield more Mp5 due to changes in the ratios because of the rounding of the numbers on the gems.

Crit is thought to be better because it "scales" better. You know, the more you crit, the more mana you get back thereby increasing your effective mana pool to continue critting. And that new mana is subject to crit, allowing you to get more mana back and so on. But it takes time for you to get those casts off. During the time it takes to do those extra casts, Mp5 is already at work doing its job.

Time for an experiement to check the numbers:
Let's do 100 casts with 5 seconds between casts and with 50% crit. Also, let's assume for the sake of the experiment that all the crit is from crit rating (no base crit or crit from talents). If you cast 100 times, at 50% crit, 50 of the casts will be regular casts and the other 50 will be crits (statistically speaking). The mana back from the 50 crits would be 765 * 50 which equals 38,250 mana gained. But this mana took 500 seconds to gain (100 casts at 5 seconds). Divide the mana gained by 500 to get the mana per second (38250/500 = 76.5). Multiply by 5 to get 382.5 Mp5 (76.5 * 5 = 382.5).

So, at this point, 50% crit is worth 382.5 Mp5. Let's compare that number with what the earlier equations and the chart. It would take 2295.5 crit rating to gain 50% crit (50 * 45.91 = 2295.5). Using the above chart, we can convert the 2295.5 crit rating to Mp5 for 5 second intervals between casts. To do so, we find the ratio of Mp5 to crit rating for 5 second intervals (16.663 Mp5 to 100 crit rating) and multiply that ratio by the crit rating needed to get 50% crit (2295.5 * (16.663/100) = 382.5) and we get 382.5 Mp5. The same 382.5 Mp5 that the experiment yielded! And because it's the same Mp5, it would yield the same amount of mana in the same amount of time (500 seconds, in this case).

Therefore, the above chart and equations used are accurate. Furthermore, this means that 382.5 Mp5 would increase the effective mana pool of a paladin by the same amount that 50%'s worth of crit rating would when casting at 5 second intervals. For the same amount of item points as 2295.5 crit rating, one could straight gear Mp5 to get 918.2 Mp5. A 535.7 Mp5 gain in this case. Keep in mind, once again, that this experiment is comparing crit rating and Mp5, not crit percent. Base crit and crit from talents gives the paladin's crit percent a head start on Mp5 gain. Even though crit has that advantage, and can gain a little extra mana from Divine Favor, it also has a disadvantage. Crit only helps the paladin when casting heals and does not supply mana back when paying for things like Beacon of Light, Sacred Shield, Cleanse, etc. (Mp5 gives mana back regardless). Flash of Light was excluded from this math because its lower mana cost translates into less mana back from crit; and if Mp5 is a better stat for Holy Light, then it is certainly better for FoL.

Considering Illumination will be nerfed in 3.2 so that crit gives half the mana that it currently does while all Mp5 values will be increasing by 25%, Mp5 is, and will continue to be, the clear winner point for point over crit rating.

 

Endoscient

Your numbers aren't really relevant because there is no non-trivial fight where that is true (and if it is then you aren't running out of mana anyway). If you are every going to be casting HL that infrequently then you are going to be casting FoL for a portion of the time, which is also effected by crit.

They are inaccurate regardless of that as well, since you are not considering what you do with the restored mana for crit vs mp5. Say if you gain X mp5, that causes you to cast Y more spells over the fight duration. Now say you gain Z crit instead where given the formula you posted above will restore the same amount of mana as X mp5 over the fight duration. You will be able to cast more then Y spells though. Since the average cost for them is going to be less then in the mp5 scenario because of the extra crit gained, and how much less depends on your initial crit rate.

 

Abeness

The numbers are not meant to be practical in that scenario, they were just arbitrary numbers put in the equations. The second part (the experimental part) was there only to back up the equations used in the chart. I see where you are coming from with the Flash of Light argument, but it doesn't gain as much as you would think. Using more arbitrary numbers...if you were to cast a FoL once every 1.25 seconds (4 casts in a 5 second window) at the same 50% (from crit rating), you would gain 370 Mp5 from Illumination. Casting faster (which haste these days makes certainly possible) would yield more Mp5, but when compared to the Mp5 one could have gained if they geared straight Mp5 (535.7 Mp5 in that scenario), Mp5 is still the winner.

Yes, the average cost on the crit heals will be less, but that's what gives crit its Mp5 gain. The mana saved on the new spells due to a lower average cost only serves to keep crit's Mp5 at what it was. After casting the initial amount of spells, the Mp5 gain and mana back from crit both essentially increase the mana pool of player by the same amount. At which point the cycle starts over again and Illumination will have to compete with Mp5 in the same way it did in the first round of casting.

I realize I did not make it clear that the chart was based on Holy Light numbers. I went back and clarified that in the original post. To show some Flash of Light numbers, here is an updated chart showing the Holy Light and Flash of Light numbers:

 

Endoscient

You haven't considered the more common scenario (especially come 3.2) of spamming a mix of FoL and HL. Which is normally how Paladins control mana usage.

The point was that the Y mana gained by having more mp5 is worth less then the Y mana gained by having more crit. Since the spells that you cast with the crit scenario's additional mana will benefit from the higher crit chance.

The cycle does not start over again for mp5 since the mana gained only varies based on fight duration, so there is only one cycle (one without the mp5 mana and one with). While there is an infinite amount of cycles for crit, since you keep spending the mana restored by crit on spells that can crit and restore mana. You can easily use a geometric series though to find the sum.

Correct ways to model Illumination's benefit include reducing the average cost of the spell by 0.6*crit chance, or having it increase your average mana pool by 1 / (1 - 0.6*crit chance).

 

Abeness

You can throw in any combination of Holy Lights and Flash of Lights you can fit into the 5 second window (with 50% crit from crit rating) and it still can't overcome the Mp5 the player could have with straight Mp5 gear; which in this scenario would be 918.2 Mp5. I know a player can cast fast enough to beat out the 918.2 Mp5, but keep in mind they would have to keep up that cast speed the entire fight; which just is not realistically going to happen.



To get the idea, don't look at the numbers as mana gained, but as a new mana pool. After the time period, Mp5 and Crit both yielded the same mana amount, and they would continue to do so until the paladin ran out of his initial mana pool. So, at that point, the player used up all of his initial mana pool and is left with only the mana gained. Treat that as a new mana pool in which the above scenario would play out the same way. The extra mana gained from crit would still take time (to finish all the casts), and in that time Mp5 would be able to keep up in the same way it did with the initial mana pool. And again, you argue that crit will give more mana back using the "new" mana pool because it costs less on average, but that average cost is what gives the crit it's Mp5 equivalent. Essentially, you are trying to double dip in Illumination's mana gain.

Mainly, you are forgetting that Mp5 from crit takes time.

 

Endoscient

I don't get the point or relevance of this. What does comparing 918 mp5 to 50% crit tell, and what does it have to do with my point of you should model casts as spam of HL/FoL mix?

You are looking at a non fixed duration fight. Which is really not useful, since gaining more mana does not increase the length of the fight. Fights will have a length dependent on your dps and the fight itself, and your job is to do your best to keep your assigned targets alive during that duration. That isn't what your mp5 numbers are saying anyway, they say how much mana crit saves every 5 seconds with a given fixed cast interval.

Reconcile this difference with your numbers. I have 50k mana pool, and lets say Holy Light costs 1000 mana. Your formula would tell us that gaining 1% crit at different initial crit rates is the same mana return, and would thus increase how many casts you get off by the same. With 20% crit rate you would get off 56.8 casts, and with 21% crit rate you would get off 57.2 casts. Which is an increase of 0.4 casts. With 50% crit rate you would get off 71.4 casts, and with 51% crit rate you would get off 72.0 casts. Which is an increase of 0.6 casts.

 

Zaroua

Let's take a look at the MP5 equivalent of 1% crit for a certain amount of Holy Light cast per minute.

30 Holy Lights per minute = 19.125 MP5
35 Holy Lights per minute = 21.3125 MP5
40 Holy Lights per minute = 25 MP5
45 Holy Lights per minute = 28.6875 MP5
50 Holy Lights per minute = 31.75 MP5 (what you'd get during Heroism/Bloodlust)



Cut those numbers in half and you get to see just how bad crit rating is going to be in 3.2 when compared to MP5. Even under the most extreme cases, MP5 still blows crit away.

In 3.1, 1% crit (45.91 crit rating) is equal to 18.364MP5 from gear*, or MP5 is about 73.456% as good as crit rating if you're going all out and casting 40 Holy Lights per minute. In 3.2, 1% crit will be equal to 22.955MP5 from gear, but with the Illumination nerf 1% crit will only return the equivalent of 12.5MP5 if the Paladin is casting 40 Holy Lights per minute: MP5 is is now 83.64% better than crit on gear. Or make it close to 85-90% considering Judgements, Sacred Shield, Beacon, Hands, Plea, etc.


So I'll basically just repeat what's been said plenty of times since the 3.2 nerfs were announced: the nerf to crit and buff to MP5 make SP/Crit/Haste gear vastly inferior to SP/MP5/Haste gear of the same ilvl, assuming similar stat and socket spread.


*: Item has 45.91 crit rating, equivalent item would have 18.364MP5 if the crit was converted in MP5, applies to item budget only.

Dogma also claims that God has a sense of humor and at times presents Him as a joker of sorts, thus again lowering Him to human level. While I am certain God has a "sense of humor" since He gave it to us, I find it most difficult to believe He finds humor in sin since He will cast the unforgiven sinner into the lake of fire for eternity. Not very funny at all.

 

Abeness

918 Mp5 is the amount of Mp5 one could gain on gear if they traded in 50% worth of crit rating (using item stat points). And as for mixing Holy Lights and Flash of Lights, the only way to get more mana regen than the 918 Mp5 is to cast very, very quickly. Like say, 3 Holy Lights in a 5 second window would give mana back equal to 1147.5 Mp5; which is more Mp5. But at that rate, you'd be bleeding 3822 mana every 5 seconds to keep that up. So once again, it IS possible to get more Mp5 from crit, but there is just no way you could keep up that cast speed. And once you run out of mana because you were casting so fast, Mp5 would still be giving its benefits for a long time afterward. By the way, to keep that particular cast rate up (3 Holy Lights per 5 seconds) and beat the 918 Mp5 (by 229.5 Mp5) for even 1 minute, one would need 45,864 mana. The 918 Mp5 continues without having to bleed your mana.

I think you are missing the point of my translating crit into Mp5. I take the mana you get back from Illumination and turn it into Mp5 (using the cast speed). Because I've taken that mana gained into account, there is no more "average cost." By changing the crit into Mp5, all spells are counted as costing the full mana amount (1274 for Holy Light, 307 for Flash of Light). The mana gained from Illumination is no longer expressed as saving X amount of mana per cast, but as X amount of mana gained every 5 seconds (again, based on cast speed). By doing so, you can get a better idea as to why crit's benefit goes up geometrically. My equations just change the thinking of how crit gives mana back.

Instead of the normal idea of "cast your whole mana pool, and now you have mana left due to crits," I use the thinking "change that mana gained into Mp5 that works as you are casting." The way you are thinking, one uses up their mana pool and they then have a smaller mana pool thanks to crit. They then use that mana pool up and have a smaller mana pool left to keep going. Changing it to Mp5 takes away the idea of "use up the mana pool," and changes it to "add the mana gained by Illumination as you are casting." Both conventions of thinking have the paladin running completely out of total usable mana at the same time. In short, my method just distributes the mana differently. But it is the same mana gained, in the same amount of time.

I'm pretty sure my equations factor that in (I got the same numbers as you using those equations), but I don't want to just pretend this point wasn't made. As you have explained it, it does appear that crit gets better when you stack more of it. Again, my equations factor that geometric increase, but in a way of thinking different than yours. But for the sake of argument, I did some math based on your numbers to see what kind of damage they could do to the conclusions I have come up with. I repeated your experiment, but with 254,800 mana and each Holy Light costing 1274 mana (so the player has enough mana to cast 200 Holy Lights before factoring crit). The difference between 21% and 20% was 1.562 casts. The difference between 51% and 50% was 2.474 casts. This resulted in .912 more casts for the 50% and 51% crit amounts. Assuming my original equations did not factor this in, that would mean that when there is a difference of 30% crit and when casting up to 288 times, there would be 1162 mana not accounted for (not even enough for one Holy Light). Considering the starting mana used, this is still almost negligible compared to how much mana was used up.

Even if my equations were wrong because this was not factored in, that mana would not break the point that Mp5 is clearly better than crit rating. And again, crit does not give mana back when casting Beacon of Light, Sacred Shield, or any other spell not considered healing. And when you consider how often those spells would be cast in the time it would take to cast 288 times, it would still put Mp5 gear way ahead in terms of regen.

Only the amount of Mp5 on items is going to change. So before implementing the Illumination nerf, 1% crit in 3.2 will still be worth 18.364 Mp5 (at 40 casts per minute). Except that the ratio of 100 crit rating to 40 Mp5 for item stat points will be changing, so Mp5 gear will be even better point for point. The only change in terms of Mp5 gained from crit in 3.2 will be that the Mp5 that crit rating is worth will be cut in half. But you are correct, the changes will make Mp5 the clear choice.

 

Abeness

Whoops, double post.

 

DiamondTear

I cast holy lights every 1.67 seconds or so during algalon.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

 

Malleus

But nobody has that much crit from rating. The maximum amount of crit you can stack from gear is around 1450. A properly balanced Paladin in top end gear will have less than half that, providing an average 15% crit. The rest of our crit comes from talents, buffs, base crit chance and Intellect, which we will have whether we gear for MP5 or crit.

So the question isn't, "Can crit rating on gear provide more than 918 MP5?" It's, "Can crit rating on gear provide more than 275MP5?" Right now the answer to that is yes, and while it's currently possible to match crit's regen using MP5 it's not worth sacrificing the extra HPS.

Post-3.2, the situation reverses. It will be possible to approach MP5's regen using crit, but only by having the highest crit value items in every slot and gemming every socket with a Smooth King's Amber - though because some gear has both crit and MP5 you will still not be matching the total regen of an MP5 set, only that derived from MP5.

 

Abeness

Could you tell a little bit more? Being able to do it on one fight could be circumstantial (there are some things a log won't show). But the log does show that most of your direct healing from Holy Light is overhealing (excluding other benefits like healing from beacon), so perhaps all that healing was unnecessary in that you could have used less Holy Lights or used Flash of Light more. The reason I say it could be better to heal less (if you can spam heal, why not? Right?), is that although casting that fast allowed crit to beat Mp5 point for point, you are also using a lot more mana in order to get that Mp5. But like I said, I can't tell a whole lot from the log, so more information would help figuring the situation out. Also, I could not find your character on the Armory and your guild url is broken (no longer exists?).
Fix: Must've been a temporary Armory error, I got to your page. But alas, you were in your Ret spec.

Similar to a previous post, I did not mean for the numbers used to be practical. They were just arbitrary numbers to fill in the equations. Because the crit from talents, buffs, base crit, and Intellect is the same whether we are gearing for Mp5 or crit, both gain almost the same benefit (crit does get sliiiightly better the more you have, as Endoscient has pointed out). The difference between their shared foundation of crit percent would at most provide a fractional margin of error on the original equations comparing crit rating and Mp5. So the comparison is then all on the gear, which would be comparing crit rating and Mp5 point for point. Using the same old numbers we have been using...15% crit from gear would take 688.65 crit rating, which could be traded in for 275 Mp5. As the original post has said, you'd have to average just above 2 seconds between casts for the entire duration of the fight just for the crit to be equal point for point.

Even when one is casting faster than that, you have to factor in crit's disadvantages. One of them has already been discussed: crit does not help saving mana when casting Beacon, SS, etc. Also, in order to get Mp5 from crit, one has to cast. So in a scenario where the paladin has run out of mana (should such a situation arise), Mp5 gain from crit will stop becase the player can no longer cast. But Mp5 gear keeps on working. Also, when a paladin is attempting to cast fast enough to make crit rating better point for point, the encounters themselves can get in the way. For example, a healer may have to move to avoid AoE damage and can not keep up their cast rate during that time.

 

tiberion02

Most raiding paladins can tell you that this is relatively easy to attain, and furthermore, all that bonus crit translates into alot more actual healing throughput. In a raid environment, throughput is practically the most important thing we can have, especially with all of the additional mana return sources we have (Divine Plea, Arcane Torrent, Meleeing, pots, LoH, mana tides etc).

Borderlands: tiberion02, add me.

 

Abeness

They would have to be Holy Light spamming the entire time because Flash of Light's Mp5 gain from crit is far lower than Holy Light's. And again, all that extra healing they're doing (just to beat that cast timer) is probably mostly overhealing and they could be much more mana efficient if they weren't trying to beat that cast timer. It seems like you're trying to argue that paladins don't need to stack regen, which would be a different argument. I've been arguing which is better for regen, and therefore equal to more total healing. Playstyles differ, so saying that a certain cast speed is possible does not necessarily make it better across the board. Most raiding paladins can link their charts and show that all that extra throughput gained went mostly straight to overhealing. The main reason intellect is the number one stat for paladins (and not the throughput stats like SP and crit) is that total effective healing is the number one priority when gearing. Intellect does give crit and SP, but not nearly enough to justify that the throughput is why one would gear for intellect first.

Also, all that extra mana you're using when spam casting has to be compensated for, so the paladin would have to use more of his mana regen capabilities, and more often. Which would/could include meleeing for mana back (lowering your average cast speed throughout the battle), and using Divine Plea more often. The more the paladin has to use Divine Plea, the lower his spells heal on average. So although extra crits give more healing, the extra Divine Pleas lower how much extra healing that is. And again, should the scenario arrive where the paladin runs out of mana, crit's Mp5 gain takes a dive.

 

vorda

You really don't want to comment about Algalon if you haven't seen the fight. If you even think as much as to cast 2 flashes in a row and your tank doesn't evade at least half the hits during that timeframe, he's dead. We're talking about a dual wielding boss with 15-18k auto attacks (in 10 man, more around 25k in 25m), no DW miss penalty and some environmental damage and 10kish specials mixed in.

The reason you're spamming holy light is because your tank might actually get 4-5 (or god forbid, more) hits in with unlucky avoidance. If you're using flash at that point, even with ninja reflexes, he's going to be dead.

edit: that is true for most HARD hard modes, algalon just is the worst.

 

DiamondTear

The healing wasn't unnecessary because a tank can die in 1.5 seconds if both paladins' holy lights happen to sync up just before a hit (which is a bit ironic, since you'd expect a boss with steady damage to favor stopcasting). Using plea more doesn't significantly reduce your output because you can use plea every 1.5 minutes when you can't heal the tank. I used 4pc t7 with almost all other slots having haste. I made a video of the 10 man fight

Of course Algalon is the only fight where I spam that much, but I just wanted to tell you to "never say never".