Razorscale I do that when he lands, Deconstructor when the heart first becomes targetable just off of the top of my head. Doing that on both fights lets me do 100% HL spam without using DP at all so it does help.
Correct me if I am wrong, but Deconstructor fight, when heart is exposed, there is no damage to the raid it is imho better to help take down scrapbots with DP up then pummel on the heart.
So instead of using DP one should introduce more mobility to run up and run back?
Its as simple as they said. Run in with DP up and dps down the heart. There is more than enough time for a single aoe class to kill the small scrapbots before they reach him. You'll do more to XT with pathetic paladin damage, than you would to scrapbots.
Hi, just out of curiosity, can you mention a boss encounter where you had time & need to approach the boss and melee for mana? Through my, not as extended as others on this forum, raiding experience most of encounters I had either no time or no need to do that.
In addition to what others have said, there are a few fights where standing in melee range and healing is quite possible. In such fights, I have my auto attack turned and use my mouse-over macro to do my healing. With my judgement-haste reducing my melee swing timer to a little over 1 second, I can get a swing in on the boss in between heals without appreciably reducing my total HPS (even crazier while bloodlust is active).
This was a technique that I believe was suggested by Zaroua (sp) on the older holy paladin thread.
Correct me if I am wrong, but Deconstructor fight, when heart is exposed, there is no damage to the raid it is imho better to help take down scrapbots with DP up then pummel on the heart.
The scrapbots wont spawn right away, theres easily around 5-8 seconds before I even see them spawn and on top of that, if I go and melee them I'm looking at risking the bots that explode hitting me. Generally it's entirely ranged killing the scrapbots and melee only on the heart in my runs for this reason.
The scrapbots wont spawn right away, theres easily around 5-8 seconds before I even see them spawn and on top of that, if I go and melee them I'm looking at risking the bots that explode hitting me. Generally it's entirely ranged killing the scrapbots and melee only on the heart in my runs for this reason.
I never said to go and melee the scrapbots (judge,exorcism,hs, consecration "in their path") . Overall I did not understand the concept of holy paladin meleeing anything, but Tzeni and Sparty did explain in which cases it is possible, maybe except for raids where your dps is so high that joining them on the heart is not needed to avoid triggering hard mode...
I never said to go and melee the scrapbots (judge,exorcism,hs, consecration "in their path") . Overall I did not understand the concept of holy paladin meleeing anything, but Tzeni and Sparty did explain in which cases it is possible, maybe except for raids where your dps is so high that joining them on the heart is not needed to avoid triggering hard mode...
It sounds like you're missing the point. You're not melee-ing the heart to help the DPS. Our poor, poor DPS in almost every case is not going to make the difference between hard mode You are melee-ing the heart because when you apply Judgment of Wisdom to the heart and then attack it, each attack is regenerating mana for you. You're attacking the heart for the purposes of restoring your mana back to full. I can completely empty my mana pool if I want to on raid heals and tank heals and overheals and then melee back to full mana during the heart phase. Your DPS should be able to handle the adds on their own. Don't waste your mana on your measly ranged attacks when you could be regenerating back to full and getting back into position to prepare for a tantrum and any unexpected bombs when DPS isn't paying attention.
Last edited by Avarraela : 04/28/09 at 4:14 PM.
Reason: to add that DPS doesn't pay attention because, let's face it, they don't.
Im going to throw out that a non-beacon healing spec for pve would have to be VERY situational by boss. Explain to me how for hard-mode progression a paladin focused solely around single target mitigation can come close to the value of a 51/X/X.
Take for example Hodir- how does a larger ss help cover frozen blows compared to a 51H pally who can beacon the tank and spam hl the raid?
It just seems that a disc priest for mitigation + a holy pally with beacon on the tank and raid healing will put out a lot more total hps while keeping the tank alive on any fight than will a ss/fol focused paladin+X will since the ss/fol will still need help to provide enough hps to keep the tank up on any serious 25m content and thus this second combo is providing minimal at best raid hps. I could main tank heal all of naxx25 with fol if I had really wanted to, there is no way in hell fol can do the trick in Ulduar even if ss procced every 4 seconds and mitigated 2-3x its current value.
Its like all these fol/ss builds can do is tunnel vision onto making a bad 4pc mediocre and trying to play the role any competent disc priest can do with much greater efficiency. I am personally much more interested in how to optimize current gear for hps, not pseudo mitigation and I feel that most of the people who have done 25 Ulduar with a minimal number of healers will feel the same way.
It's not just single target mitigation. Divine Guardian and Divine Sacrifice can help a raid quite a bit and it works better with the deep prot build because of the higher health pool. Yes it's almost suicidal without bubble, but it's also easier to keep one person healed than a large group is it not? Aura Mastery as usual is situational and best used with multiple paladins in group, as is this build in general.
Like I said though, I know it won't work for Ulduar, but it's not built to anyway. (At least I didn't intend it to. I can't speak for Feya.) Don't push it aside just because it's not as doable in the newest end-game raid.
Yes it's been hacked to pieces number-wise, but could someone please prove it's inferior during an actual run? If you can, I'm sure we'd all like to see the real numbers.
It's not just single target mitigation. Divine Guardian and Divine Sacrifice can help a raid quite a bit and it works better with the deep prot build because of the higher health pool. Yes it's almost suicidal without bubble, but it's also easier to keep one person healed than a large group is it not? Aura Mastery as usual is situational and best used with multiple paladins in group, as is this build in general.
Like I said though, I know it won't work for Ulduar, but it's not built to anyway. (At least I didn't intend it to. I can't speak for Feya.) Don't push it aside just because it's not as doable in the newest end-game raid.
Yes it's been hacked to pieces number-wise, but could someone please prove it's inferior during an actual run? If you can, I'm sure we'd all like to see the real numbers.
With all due respect, I know I can do a better job painting with a brush in my hand than with it shoved up my nostril. I don't need to prove that with actual experience to see "real numbers."
You yourself just said that this build will not work for Ulduar. We know that a holy build will work for Ulduar. Ulduar is more challenging than Naxx. Thus, this build is inferior to traditional holy by your own admission.
With all due respect, I know I can do a better job painting with a brush in my hand than with it shoved up my nostril. I don't need to prove that with actual experience to see "real numbers."
You yourself just said that this build will not work for Ulduar. We know that a holy build will work for Ulduar. Ulduar is more challenging than Naxx. Thus, this build is inferior to traditional holy by your own admission.
Nevermind then. Yes it's inferior in basically all regards. It still has its uses, but a Holy build has more and does them better. Cheers on me proving myself wrong.
It's not just single target mitigation. Divine Guardian and Divine Sacrifice can help a raid quite a bit and it works better with the deep prot build because of the higher health pool. Yes it's almost suicidal without bubble, but it's also easier to keep one person healed than a large group is it not? Aura Mastery as usual is situational and best used with multiple paladins in group, as is this build in general.
Like I said though, I know it won't work for Ulduar, but it's not built to anyway. (At least I didn't intend it to. I can't speak for Feya.) Don't push it aside just because it's not as doable in the newest end-game raid.
Yes it's been hacked to pieces number-wise, but could someone please prove it's inferior during an actual run? If you can, I'm sure we'd all like to see the real numbers.
I considered a build like this too, and also considered a build deep into Ret for the HoT and extra healing, but the sacrifices you make along the way within Holy just can't justify it. Ultimately, the Paladin's strength as a healer is massive single target heals, and mana efficiency. BoL allows us to raid heal as well, so a pair of Holy paladins can manage more than one target.
Here is the problem with a protection-heavy healing build: It lies in the utility of SS/DG's "value" diminishing in larger fights because of the 150% health cap. In Heroics, or even 10-mans, the buffed SS/DG is extremely handy as the mitigation and damage taken within the raid/party is split amongst fewer individuals. When 20 people get nailed for 1k damage, it is "less effective" as a life saver as opposed to saving 5 people 4k damage. The value diminishes, not the effectiveness. In a raid environment, I am better off DS + Hand of Sacrificing the tank to absorb an uncapped amount and still give the tank massive amounts of mitigation. Let's even compare it to Aura Mastery, which some advocate and some pass on. At least Aura Mastery is an effective doubling effect, so even if a new expansion hit tomorrow with level 100 and resistance values per Aura go up, it still is effectively twice as good. It is a spare GCD that doesn't force me to pop DS and still provides a form of situational mitigation for a party or raid and doesn't cap based on damage.
As it stands right now, I took DG in my Holy spec because it is a new toy and my current focus is Heroics to start gearing the tank I run with. In a 5-man, DG can be a game changer, but I can easily see where its value will be overshadowed by the extra mana returns and mobility that Ret provides.
15% run speed is such a nice perk on most of Ulduar, there is so much fire to run from, that keeps me from a DG build moreso the 8% crit.
I agree that a DG build is best for heroics (due to never "breaking" DG early) because you can spam Flash of Light and SS on the tank very well with a few HL for spikes. Throw Beacon on a random melee dps for AoE fights are you are good to go.
Regarding going deep Prot or deep Ret to heal, that is a viable idea for PvP. In fact the best 2s healing build is 32/0/39, and some people have success with 19/52 (for 20 sec Hammer and silence) moreso than deep Holy.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
I believe the reason a lot of players are drawn to such deep ret or deep prot builds is that, before this expansion, deep holy only really offered us could be reduced to 0.5s off a HL, more crit and slightly better scaling for int. All told, with the exception of faster HLs (which, let's admit it, weren't cast nearly as often) mostly better efficiency. Most of what I would have called core Holy talents pre-3.0 can now be had in the first 18 points of the tree (5/5 Div Int, Spiritual Focus and Illumination and 3/3 Healing Light) - BUT, and it's a big one, deep holy now offers genuinely attractive tools: a short cooldown, long range, instant medium heal in HS, 15% "free" haste for better throughput, and situational tools such as BoL and IoL. We simply have to make an effort to consider these changes and get out of the pre-3.0 mindset that featured and mostly fully functional holy paladin at 18/0/0.
I figured that I would add to the flask section. The Flask of Distilled wisdom can offer much more than the Flask of the Frost Wyrm.
Here are the stat's it gives you if used with appropriate raid buffs aswell as Mixology(Alchemy).
65 Int (+mixology = 97.5 Int)
97,5 Int =
123.34 Intellect, with BoK and Divine Intellect
850.063 Mana at the start of the fight
38.513mp5 from Divine Plea, if its used on CD.
20.768mp5 from Replenishment, with 90% uptime.
24.668 Spell Power
0.740% Spell Crit
Just decided to post this as it is my flask of choice.
It's a little bit misleading to include a profession bonus when attempting to outline the benefits of a particular flask you might be trying to advocate for. In addition, as is mentioned in the initial post, elixirs can be combined to achieve better results. The initial posts already mentions this flask option at any rate, so it's not as if it was unheard of - adding numbers in might be a good idea, but in that case, the 65 base int provided would have been more useful to the community.
I figured that I would add to the flask section. The Flask of Distilled wisdom can offer much more than the Flask of the Frost Wyrm.
Here are the stat's it gives you if used with appropriate raid buffs aswell as Mixology(Alchemy).
65 Int (+mixology = 97.5 Int)
97,5 Int =
123.34 Intellect, with BoK and Divine Intellect
850.063 Mana at the start of the fight
38.513mp5 from Divine Plea, if its used on CD.
20.768mp5 from Replenishment, with 90% uptime.
24.668 Spell Power
0.740% Spell Crit
Just decided to post this as it is my flask of choice.
Your protection build is not viable as a proper healing build unless you are supported by other healers willing to pull you through content. By taking the build you will get some nice (crit) numbers but ultimately you are causing more hassle for other healers as you are not doing the job you are assigned to do to the capacity you are capable of.
The discussion of this build has taken up a couple of pages of the thread now and it's going to turn into a "I can gear for crit and still not have tanks die" issue from the previous thread, perhaps it's usable but ultimately you are reducing your healing capacity and hurting your raidforce by doing so. I cannot think of many fights where this build exceeds what a traditional holy build will bring, until you can give us details of where your protection build shines I feel that making comments about how great it is really is detracting from the threads aims.
15% run speed is such a nice perk on most of Ulduar
Speaking of mobility, may I get some opinions on the Glyph of Holy Shock now that we've had a chance to play with it a bit? I had originally stayed away from it based on HS being a theoretical hps decrease but picked it up to help in the Yogg fight. I've kept it ever since - seems to help out mobility healing tremendously.
Hi, just out of curiosity, can you mention a boss encounter where you had time & need to approach the boss and melee for mana? Through my, not as extended as others on this forum, raiding experience most of encounters I had either no time or no need to do that.
Aside the aforementioned Razorscale and XT Deconstructor, Hodir and Kologarn provide you with a lot of meleeing time. From the old ones, Malygos on phase 1 during the vortex (due to it bugging and being able to melee while being vortexed) would be the only one worth noting.
Speaking of mobility, may I get some opinions on the Glyph of Holy Shock now that we've had a chance to play with it a bit? I had originally stayed away from it based on HS being a theoretical hps decrease but picked it up to help in the Yogg fight. I've kept it ever since - seems to help out mobility healing tremendously.
I've decided to stick with Holy Shock glyph over Divinity. I've found it too useful for quick burst heals and when moving.
Additionally, [Pandora's Plea] from Mimiron is proccing an incorrect amount of SP. Item says 850 SP, actual tooltip and buff is 751.
I am confused. I decided at the beginning of Ulduar that i and other our Holy Pallies will use 51/20/0 build.
I have no mana problems, that's for sure. But atm we killed Kologarn - i don't know how it will look in the future.
I do use Divine Sacrifice as often as possible and i feel it is working. Yesterday we used it on Kologarn a lot and i feel it was working, however i didn't analysed yet logs enough: Wow Web Stats
One thing i noticed - Divine Sacrifice was always, or nearly always working for 10 seconds. I didn't notice to see it droping earlier. Possibility to reduce raid damage by 40% looks for me much better than getting few % of crit. You would really suggest to drop Divine Sacrifice? Did they change something last days in it's mechanics?
I just did some testing with Divine Sacrifice and it definitely only absorbs up to 150% of your hp now, bubble or not.
What I did was bring a hunter, death knight and rogue friends of mine to Gurubashi Arena and had the hunter hit on the dk while I had Divine Sacrifice on to see if the buff would wear off before its whole duration. I did the test multiple times with and without divine shield and Divine Sacrifice always wore off before the full 10 seconds.
So the trade off now is basically 5% healing and ~35k damage absorbed vs 10% cost on instants, 8% crit and 15% run speed (or 5% healing, 5% crit and 1-% cost on instants)
I can still see a couple situations where Divine Sacrifice is still worth it, especially in 10mans, but overall the retribution build seems more appealing.
Divine sacrifice is limited to 150% of the paladins health for the damage shared per player, it can absorb 24 times 150% of the paladins health in a heroic raid. On XT002 130K absorbtion during the tantrum is normal.
Speaking of mobility, may I get some opinions on the Glyph of Holy Shock now that we've had a chance to play with it a bit? I had originally stayed away from it based on HS being a theoretical hps decrease but picked it up to help in the Yogg fight. I've kept it ever since - seems to help out mobility healing tremendously.
If you don't need the 3900 mana nor the ability to energize someone with 3900 mana (Divinity), then Holy Shock is the ideal pick for the 3rd slot.
Personally, I just spam Holy Light (rarely cast cancel), so the extra mana comes in handy.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Divine sacrifice is limited to 150% of the paladins health for the damage shared per player, it can absorb 24 times 150% of the paladins health in a heroic raid. On XT002 130K absorbtion during the tantrum is normal.
I noticed it falling off early almost everytime on Yogg-Saron last week, I doubt that everyone in the raid took more than ~80k damage in less than 10 seconds. It would also not make too much sense programming wise (and user-friendly wise) to have a buff up on you that doesn't effect the whole raid when the tooltip says so. For me at least, it doesn't seem like something Blizzard would code, but I may be wrong. I'll do some more testings in our next raid and see how it goes.
Can anyone else confirm/deny that it falls off early in a raid setting?
04/28/09, 12:49 PM
. Overall I did not understand the concept of holy paladin meleeing anything, but Tzeni and Sparty did explain in which cases it is possible, maybe except for raids where your dps is so high that joining them on the heart is not needed to avoid triggering hard mode...
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