The Holy Paladin Guide for 3.1 - Page 8

Jaydin · 04/27/09, 3:37 PM

One thing we were discussing on maintankadin was concern over our "Thunder judge" debuff dropping off bosses due to overridden judgements. General consensus seemed to agree, in the case of at least 1 of each prot, ret, and holy, that only the prot paladins judge wisdom while all others judge light - prot paladins would be able to keep 90+% uptime while keeping up their thunder judge, while JoL would have 100% uptime due to the ret paladins, only losing the increased +healing due to AP/SP contributions for at most 7 seconds per 2 minutes.

Dugarax · 04/27/09, 6:21 PM

Originally Posted by Varuk

Here's my answer, macready =)

(Taken from the last post of the 3.0 Holy Paladin thread.)

Alrighty. I know we're all unhappy with the state of itemization in Ulduar, but after really sitting down and looking at the situation... I'm not worried any more. Two things have changed for me:

1. After a full run-through of Ulduar I never once encountered a situation where mana was an issue that couldn't be solved through tighter play and better DP usage. (Except, obviously, Vezax, but that's entirely different scenario.)

2. After reading through several posts worth of math on the equivalency of Crit and Int compared to MP5 and applying the math within I've determined that the haste/mp5 pieces of ulduar loot have just as much if not more regen than the crit/haste pieces of naxx loot.

As best I can tell, admittedly using other people's maths, in a HL spam situation with 35 HL per minute and 1 DP per minute, 1 Crit Rating is equivalent to .5 MP5 and 1 Intellect is worth .8 MP5. For the purpose of comparing regen, I lowered Intellect to 1 Int = .66 MP5 to compensate for more realistic DP usage such as 2-3 times a fight instead of using on cooldown.

With those weightings, which rely *entirely* on spam-casting, the haste/mp5 pieces of ulduar loot such as [Treads of Destiny] and [Plate Girdle of Righteousness] significantly outpace the naxx versions of loot in terms of regen while still providing much needed haste! (Comparing those two to [Waistguard of Divine Grace] and [Poignant Sabatons].) And keep in mind that any time you cast fewer than 35 HLs in 60s the values of crit and int both decrease while the value of MP5 remains static -- so any fight that involves movement (which is basically every single fight in ulduar) or that has a break in cast time (Mimiron, for example) you will find MP5 actually performing equal to if not better than crit on an item point for item point basis.

Even the tier8 haste/mp5 gear is outperforming the t7 haste/crit gear. (Obviously this is not counting the t7 4-piece bonus.)

Will it be enough to make breaking the 4pcT7 bonus worth it? That I cannot say yet. But, for me, if I can manage to remain mana neutral while utilizing these higher iLvl pieces to gain haste then that is enough of a gain for me to wear it. Mana has yet to be an issue for myself in Ulduar, and while this may change with hard-modes, if it does, the good old trusty T7 will still be in the bank ready to slap on for the ridiculous 4pc set bonus. And even then, the majority of hard modes seem to be "kill the boss faster this time!" which doesn't promise to be too straining on mana.

MP5 is still a bad stat. It's still weaker than crit and significantly worse than int. But I'm convinced that it isn't as bad as many people make it out to be, and that the combination of higher item levels and more sockets is making alot of this gear much better than was originally expected.

The main issue is not only that all the mp5 on the gear could be spent on something useful, but also that most of our best in slot items will now be mail. Shamans will be so happy. This is the "Warriors need leather items" all over again,

Olib · 04/27/09, 6:55 PM

Originally Posted by Jaydin

One thing we were discussing on maintankadin was concern over our "Thunder judge" debuff dropping off bosses due to overridden judgements. General consensus seemed to agree, in the case of at least 1 of each prot, ret, and holy, that only the prot paladins judge wisdom while all others judge light - prot paladins would be able to keep 90+% uptime while keeping up their thunder judge, while JoL would have 100% uptime due to the ret paladins, only losing the increased +healing due to AP/SP contributions for at most 7 seconds per 2 minutes.

Why not have the prot paladin judge justice (or the holy paladins)? No overwriting then and you get max strength JoL.

Saladin · 04/27/09, 7:23 PM

Originally Posted by Olib

why not have the prot paladin judge justice (or the holy paladins)? no overwriting then and you get max strength JoL.

Heads up, Justice is not a viable judgment for holy paladins ever since the PVP-influenced nerf made it unaffected by Enlightened Judgements. However, ideally you would allow the prot to judge justice, ret to judge light, and holy to judge wisdom--assuming that the holy paladin can keep up with judging once every 20 seconds as opposed to the 60 seconds mandated by JotP.

Olib · 04/27/09, 7:27 PM

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that - but it is an easy solution to the problem of having at least one of each (assuming as you say frequent judging from the holy paladin). My guild usually runs with 1-2 holy and 1-2 ret and a prot every other raid so there is always light/wisdom making judging justice a viable solution for the protadin.

Feya · 04/27/09, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by Silmeria

Again, if you have a raw combat log of your Valstraz experience (or even a parse), we could give you a better understanding of what's going on. Of all things, I'm very very sure there's no cumulative absorb bonus going off at least with stacked sacred shields.

I'll see if the fella who records our combat logs for raids kept the raw one. I know I have a parsed wws of the evening, but we were learning the encounter at the time so its several dozen wipe attempts included.

I'll be absolutely certain to record and test this this next raid week. Regardless, we have obviously disproven what was generally accepted before hand. Lets see if I can go one step further

• frmorrison · 04/27/09, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by Olib

ah thanks, wasn't aware of that - but it is an easy solution to the problem of having at least one of each (assuming as you say frequent judging from the holy paladin). My guilds raids usually run with 1-2 holy and 1-2 ret and a prot every other raid so there is always light/wisdom making juding justice a viable solution for the protadin.

While JoL is an outstanding spell, I'd rather have Holy's weaker JoL version up for a little bit rather than lose JoW from the Prot using Justice. JoW helps Mages, Warlocks, and Hunters do more damage.

Palados · 04/28/09, 12:23 AM

I checked BiS plate gear in rawr and compared with the gear I have now (mostly BiS pre 3.1 according to rawr) - surprisingly my mp5 went lower, crit stayed about the same, plus I got about 8% more haste, 300 int and loads of sta. Yes, there are loads of mp5 items in ulduar, but also quite a few mp5 items were BiS before (some t7 pieces for bonus, bracers, etc). Also I have to point out that rawr valued some items with mp5 higher than pure haste/crit items pre-3.1 (bands of mutual respect, boots of healing energies).

In my opinion situation is not that bad. Two iLvL 239 items one being haste/mp5 and other being crit/mp5 will be quite better than two iLvL 213 haste/crit items, You would loose not that much crit and haste but get huge mp5, some SP and a lot more int.

For example compare shoulders/cape slots:

T7.5 + Luminosity give 93 crit, 63 haste, 100 int, 143 SP , 1 socket, 110 sta

Combatant + Sullen give 40 crit, 48 haste, 120 int, 168 SP, 44mp5, 3 sockets, 143 sta

The trade off:

- 53 crit
- 15 haste
vs
+ 20 int (that will add extra crit, SP and initial mana plus mp5 from plea and replenishment)
+ 25 SP
+ 33 sta
+ 44 mp5
+ 2 sockets

one could socket 2 x crit gems making difference in crit much lower

- 21 crit
- 15 haste
vs
+ 20 int (that will add extra crit, SP and initial mana plus mp5 from plea and replenishment)
+ 25 SP
+ 33 sta
+ 44 mp5

Smoothp · 04/28/09, 7:51 AM

This is the best math I have encountered for comparing regen stats in determining bis

166.67 Int = 1% spell crit

45.91 crit rating = 1% spell crit

Kings and Divine Int are multiplicative, not additive

166.67/1.15/1.1=131.755 base int required for 1% crit

1 int = 45.91/131.755 = .35 crit rating

Hl crits restore 764.4 mana

Divine Plea restores 25% of mana

Arcane Torrent restores 6% of mana/2min

Mana Tide restores 25% mana/5min

Replenishment restores 1.25%/5secs

Therefore we get the following mp5 values using N for hl casts/min and X for mins/DivinePlea

1 crit rating * 1%/45.91 rating * N casts/100 * 764.4 mana/cast * 1min/12 mp5 ticks = .0139*N mp5 per crit rating

15 mana(1int) * 1.1 * 1.15 * (.25/12/X+.06/24 + .25 /60 + .0125/1) = (.3953/X + .364) mp5 per 1 int

Now we construct the following Table with HL's/min as the row labels and Minutes Per Divine Plea as the column Labels with the formula mp5 per int = .35(.0139*N)+.364+.3953/X ->first part calculates value of the crit given by int, second part by the mana restore buffs **note that it is all standardized to per 5 sec "ticks"

1 2 3 4 5 No DP
20 .857 .659 .593 .560 .540 .461
25 .881 .683 .617 .584 .565 .486
30 .905 .708 .642 .609 .589 .510
35 .930 .732 .666 .633 .613 .534
40 .954 .756 .690 .657 .638 .559
45 .978 .781 .715 .682 .662 .583

For all the alliance paladins-
Removing arcane torrent reduces each mp5 per int value by .0475 from what is given in the chart

So if we pick 3 minutes between Divine pleas and 35 HL's per min we can set mp5 to 1 in a stat weight and the remaining values become
Int- .666 -> From chart
Crit- .4858 -> From 35* .0139

This assigns each item piece a score for regen- The highest scoring should always be the crit/mp5 piece

Then we go down and find the first haste/mp5 or haste/crit piece (or sometimes both) and calculate the net cost of the bonus haste in terms of lost regen

Using Wowhead Cloaks we get

Cloak of the Dying - 28.86
Pennant Cloak- 26.87

Going to Pennant we gain 42 Haste so each point of haste cost (28.86-26.87)/42 = .0474 regen value per haste

Now if I do this for each slot we can find where you get haste the "cheapest"

The other factor here is I much prefer the high int/crit to the mp5 gear, so I add in personal judgement here where I switch into the haste/crit gear first instead of haste/mp5

Now I determine how much haste I want to have in a final set (between 400-700 probably depending on personal taste) and then continue to swap in gear with haste piece by piece until I reach a threshold I like.

Going back to the above I generally place in the high int or haste/crit pieces first (where available) and then move to take the haste/mp5 pieces only where Haste is cheap or required to reach the threshold I desire

I know many people use rawr for this kind of thing, but the above is how I will go about finding my personal bis when wowhead is full updated with all available 3.1 items

Edit- This method closely mirrors the method I used to pick bis on my retired warlock- Find best non-hit pieces and then determine the cost of adding hit, then selecting the cheapest hit pieces until I was capped

2nd- I normally omit sp or dont place a lot of weight on it because it is fairly consistent across pieces, although I do factor it in for a large discrepancy in the same way you would haste

Jackinthegreen · 04/28/09, 8:19 AM

Feya, I came up with a similar build as to what you had, but with minor tweaks. Here it is.

Guarded by the Light could be picked up for the -6% spell damage, but having DP up all the time severely hinders our healing output. Besides, spamming FoL shouldn't result in mana problems anyway.

As others have mentioned, the build really doesn't work well on its own... I'd personally use it when there is at least one other Holy pally around with the usual 51/x/x build. In that situation BoL is still available to the raid, but they also get the benefit of a better-surviving healer should that need arise.

Given that I've never run Ulduar I can't speculate on how this build would work in there.. I have however run OS, VoA, and Naxx enough to feel this build would work well for those places and probably others as a specific support healer.

vorda · 04/28/09, 8:29 AM

I have however run OS, VoA, and Naxx enough to feel this build would work well for those places and probably others as a specific support healer.

Why would that be? In any halfway decent raid in those instances no one should come close to dying, unless it's unavoidable anyway (frost tombs) or plain dumb/lack of focus.

Are you sure you want to use your raid experience to support a controversial spec? Because the char you're posting from has done 1 full naxx 10 clear, 0 naxx 25 raids, 1 sart 10/25, 1 VoA 10 and 2 VoA 25.

edit: again, I'm not trying to be an ass, but this isn't really the forum where you can speak from 'enough raid experience' without actually having it.

Jackinthegreen · 04/28/09, 8:57 AM

Originally Posted by vorda

Why would that be? In any halfway decent raid in those instances no one should come close to dying, unless it's unavoidable anyway (frost tombs) or plain dumb/lack of focus.

Are you sure you want to use your raid experience to support a controversial spec? Because the char you're posting from has done 1 full naxx 10 clear, 0 naxx 25 raids, 1 sart 10/25, 1 VoA 10 and 2 VoA 25.

edit: again, I'm not trying to be an ass, but this isn't really the forum where you can speak from 'enough raid experience' without actually having it.

I'll admit to lack of in-game experience, as far as raids go and such. I am however something of a pessimist when it comes to most of the people I've had to run with. Not all players are going to be totally with it and while I'd love to run solely with people who are all there, I don't have the luxury of that yet. For me this build is a damage control option to be used as seen fit. I know it won't work for many people or circumstances but it is still useful.

Smoothp · 04/28/09, 9:11 AM

Im going to throw out that a non-beacon healing spec for pve would have to be VERY situational by boss. Explain to me how for hard-mode progression a paladin focused solely around single target mitigation can come close to the value of a 51/X/X.

Take for example Hodir- how does a larger ss help cover frozen blows compared to a 51H pally who can beacon the tank and spam hl the raid?

It just seems that a disc priest for mitigation + a holy pally with beacon on the tank and raid healing will put out a lot more total hps while keeping the tank alive on any fight than will a ss/fol focused paladin+X will since the ss/fol will still need help to provide enough hps to keep the tank up on any serious 25m content and thus this second combo is providing minimal at best raid hps. I could main tank heal all of naxx25 with fol if I had really wanted to, there is no way in hell fol can do the trick in Ulduar even if ss procced every 4 seconds and mitigated 2-3x its current value.

Its like all these fol/ss builds can do is tunnel vision onto making a bad 4pc mediocre and trying to play the role any competent disc priest can do with much greater efficiency. I am personally much more interested in how to optimize current gear for hps, not pseudo mitigation and I feel that most of the people who have done 25 Ulduar with a minimal number of healers will feel the same way.

Pirjo · 04/28/09, 10:23 AM

The only talent that is arguable trade for beacon is Sanc - for 25 mans only... If you have no other form of this buff, it represents ~1k mitigation to the vexaz tank every time he gets hit. In all honesty, beacon is ~10% of my healing done in 25 man content. If you have 7 equal healers, BoS buff represents ~21% increasing in healing done via damage mitigated (25 people*0.03/#Healers). I should repeat: If you have no other form of this buff.
If you have this buff in some other form, then you should be a beacon spec.

If you have divine plea active you are going to do less healing then a standard spec.
If you are primarily using FoL (gimmick fight aside), you are going to do less healing then a standard spec - because it is 50% of the HPS of HL... similar to HL spam with divine plea active.
If you don't have JotP, you are going to be a lot less responsive, or able to deal with massive damage quickly, than 51/x/x.

Basically, if you are going to suggest a new spec list:
Overall HPS done for X minutes as 51/5/15.
Burst HPS as 51/5/15.
Overall HPS done for X minutes as X/X/X.
Burst HPS for X/X/X.

There is no spec that can match the on demand burst HPS of 51/5/15 in 3.1. If you want to argue a high regen build, you'll have to put it in a useful context, where the high burst potential spec of 51/5/15 (or 51/0/20) goes oom in the hands of a good player. At the moment, if we go oom then the other healers will be oom long before us, and you've probably died to a soft enrage mechanic due to low dps.

Olib · 04/28/09, 11:07 AM

On the BiS discussion, it all depends how you have rawr setup doesn't it. If you know mana won't be an issue (I know we mostly haven't done hard mores yet) then mp5 gives absolutely nothing. This is one of the reasons I try and avoid rawr recommendations in regards to longevity and look more at how things work for burst.

There are alternatives out there that don't involve loading up on too much mp5, just the T8 legs/gloves (for 4piece if you take the well itemised helm and shoulders), and maybe boots (the crafted mail/plate are good here as they have two gem slots & are higher item level - there are also cloth hard mode boots but as has been pointed out DPS casters will be all over them) but you can still stick with poignant sabatons / cloth hard mode boots (depending on guild looting) & mail waist from Razorscale. Other slotssuch as the neck/ring/cloak/shield/bracers(mail)/belt(mail) there are well itemised pieces out there.